Greedy Goblin

Monday, November 17, 2014

Highsec IS Concord

- What would be highsec without Concord?
- A crappy version of lowsec.

I mean you could do worse missions, mine worse ore, do worse complexes without any benefit. It would be like the nullsec system with crappy truesec. If Concord would be removed from the game, no one would live in highsec. Most current highsec dwellers would quit the game, the rest would move to lowsec, nullsec or wormhole space for higher rewards and similar risk.

Why is it important? Because any kind of highsec PvP problem must be considered with Concord. A PvP solution in highsec without Concord is unavoidably wrong. For example telling a miner "watch local for known gankers" is wrong, not because watching local is too much to ask, but because if someone is ready to watch local, he can do it in lowsec/nullsec while mining more valuable ore. Why would anyone mine Veldspar when he could mine Mercoxit for the same effort?

What are the valid highsec PvP mechanics then?
  • Replacement tank: expecting the target to fly something worthless, like an insured, cheap fit retriever with an empty pod.
  • Red Killboard tank: expecting the target to put enough tank to his ship to avoid profitable ganking. For example a freighter with less than 1B cargo.
  • Anti-gank escort: expecting the target to have a small escort fleet with no DPS, operating under the assumption that the DPS will come from Concord. Typically ECM and logi ships.
Now let's get to the elephant in highsec: wardecs. Wardecs remove Concord protection from a corporation, therefore teleporting it into a crappy version of lowsec. Most of the targets docks up, which is equal to quiting the game until Concord returns. Some players fight, they find that it's a good way to live and then move to lowsec/nullsec, recognizing that it's more lucrative for the same fighting risks. The result: there are no other highsec corps than the wardeccers. Every other corp stops activity or disbands on wardec.

I'm not saying that wardecs need to be removed completely from highsec. After all, there are wars in lowsec too, adjusting station gun mechanics. But they need to be optional for corps that live exclusively in highsec and own no structures. I'd like to repeat, this isn't about "dumbing down the game", but removing an inconsistency. Actually two, if you consider that NPC corps can't be wardecced. Highsec is the place where Concord protects you, unless you willfully engage in PvP.

There is another consistent solution: "there is no highsec". But if you prefer that, say that, with all that implies: 1 day old newbies attackable one jump from the newbie systems. Because wardecs (and awoxes) mean exactly that, if a 1 day old newbie is dumb enough to join a "guild", he will be popped one jump from the newbie system.


maxim said...

Is there a reason to have a corp if it owns no structures and cannot be wardecced?
Doesn't it just become a glorified chatroom?

Gevlon said...

What's the purpose of real life corporations? Why not everyone is a small business owner?

Because most people are dumb and exploiting the dumb is profitable for both:

maxim said...

Real-life corporations enjoy significant reductions in cost of operation as they get bigger. Economies of scale are a real thing.

Is there an equivalent in Eve corp?

Are you saying that you personally (or any Eve-industrial you know) would start an industrial corp if you were sure it couldn't be wardecced?

Gevlon said...

Of course! For example I could set up a mining mission corp for Thukker LP. I would supply an always online (and AFK) fleet with a wing booster and 5 squad boosters/commanders, contracted mining ships, buy orders for LP rewards so all the random guys need to do is jumping on the fleet and mine.

My income would be setting the corp tax to 50-80% (this affects only the 1-2M ISK income of the mission, not the 8-10M coming from LP).

maxim said...

What's preventing you from using out-of-game means to do the same?

Foo said...

The foo corps are about wormhole PI. We rent out secure pos storage and provide buy orders.

All corp hauling is done with out of corp pilots. What hauling individuals do is up to them.

Anonymous said...

Freighters are profitable over 250m isk, even tanked to the nuts.

And no highseccer would join a corp with 50%+ tax, even if it was only a fraction of their income. They just wouldn't think that way.

I'm with maxim, there's really no use in having some little half corporation.

Gevlon said...

@Maxim: using anything but the most basic and automatic tools rule out recruiting morons. And only a moron would be a worker of someone else.

Unknown said...

Totally agree with the conclusions there.
The reasons why there are only few really successful industrial corps lay again in the game mechanics. As in EVE everybody can betray everybody and steal anything without consequences, as long as you do not try to impersonate Chribba..., most industrial actions were undertaken alone in an anonymous alt corp. No one eing able to steal valuable originals etc.

As long as CCP does not understand RL economic mechanics and EVE in-game mechanics, they will always be one step behind "the meta"...

maxim said...

I agree that it is easier to get a random unskilled and unsuspecting newbie who doesn't know any better to join an in-game corp than to go to an out-of-game web-site.

However, this seems more like a minor inconvenience to me than a significant block.

Provi Miner said...

What is high sec without concord? hmm RACIAL control. Either you are with us, not against us, or against us.

Explanation: if you have good standing with amarr you can and should expect amarr ships to respond (much like concord) if you have no standing with amarr you can/should expect some form of help (not as quick not as much). if you have negative standing with amarr you should expect no help, and if that standing is bad enough you should expect attack upon entering the system.

Just cause you are trader doesn't mean Amarr will go out if its way to help you.

Make folks earn that help, and make that help proportional to your standing.

maxim said...

Actually i'd love to see more prominent faction roles :)

Von Keigai said...

A PvP solution in highsec without Concord is unavoidably wrong.

No. Concord is there for people who don't want to PVP. I'll agree with you that a PVP solution for them should rely on Concord. That is, there should not be wars against people that are unwilling to fight. This does not mean you cannot wardec them; it just means that there should be a way for them to terminate the fighting immediately. Nobody should ever be docking up for a week to duck wardec. That's simply bad game design on the part of CCP. Those are customers!

But there is, or at least should be, room in highsec for people who do want to PVP against others in highsec. And those who are not willing to fight should be incentivized to fight, but gently.

And here is where highsec is not just lowsec plus Concord. In lowsec, everyone is against you. Whereas in highsec, those who are against you are a tiny fraction of the whole population. Highsec is a large place, and in theory at least could have an interesting warfare game going on there that is unlike anywhere else. That's what CCP should be aiming for.

Highsec should be a place for (somewhat) fair PVP. PVP without capitals, and where you can simply decline to fight against anyone. Of course ducking should come at significant cost. But it should not be "don't play for a week", and it should not be "dissolve your corp".

Anonymous said...

a eve "corp" is like facebook "friends". it's a lable without any meaning. eve corporation could be called "bar" or "foo".

ever tried to farm Mercoxit? was the first thing I did after I saw the ore chart and ISK/m3 sites. "it's profitable, right. how hard can it be.". yeah right.

on topic. never leave npc corp or be in a one man corp if you like to setup pos or really don't want to have 11% tax.

Anonymous said...

the main purpose of corps is corp hangars in stations, at least for highsec corps, and this is why there are so many 1 man indy/trader corps.

As well as having the wallet divisions.

Anything else can be set up without the need for a corp

Anonymous said...

"ever tried to farm Mercoxit? was the first thing I did after I saw the ore chart and ISK/m3 sites. "it's profitable, right. how hard can it be.". yeah right."
Mercoxit isk/m3 is inflated. Most people don't seem to understand that you can't mine the same amount of m3/h in Mercoxit as other ores, therefore it's isk/m3 is often heavily exaggerated. On top of that Morphite is a much smaller market, meaning it's harder to shift as much and maintain the price. Ark,Bis,Hem,Hed are the best ores and they tend to swap about in terms of isk/m3 based on demand.

It's strange seeing this blog post from a guy who supports one of the worst groups for industrial corp wardeccing.

Anonymous said...

Wardecs in highsec are a cancer.

I basically left a corp that refused to fight wardecs even when we had superior numbers.
I went to a corp that did fight back, and hard. Next thing we knew we were in nullsec.

The only PvP people in highsec are griefers. Wardecs are doing little more for content than facilitating griefing. I'm saying this as someone who joins nullsec fleets almost on a daily basis.

IMHO, wardec victims should be able to pay up to concord for wardec shield to the tune of 5 times the wardec fee. The attackers would recoup 50% of their fee and the defenders would get a month immunity. I hear it used to be this way, have no idea why it was changed.

Otherwise they can fight it out.

Unfortunatly hiring mercs is not cost efficient for small wardecs that are the vast majority. Would be nice to be able to hire Concord escort services, lol.

I always wished there was some structure or objective the attackers and defenders could/had to fight over so that the wardec could be resolved one way or another.

Currently wardecs serve only to force PvP on highsec space that was not built for PvP.

Anonymous said...

this is the real problem of eve- the new player is left to a series of dead-ends, unless he can do the spreadhseets to find profit as a trader or industrialist, or join a low/null/WH corp, he is left to be ganked in failcorps or else play alone.

CCP is fully supporting 10% of their customer base at the expense of the rest of it. the problem is that most of that 10% of loyal CCP customers are Griefers and Goons. CCP is driving away 40% of their customers to cater to those 10%. thats their business plan.