I don't know if the last Burn Jita was last year or will be on this one, but I'm completely sure that there won't be any in 2015. The Goons either realize that "destroying your game" is no longer funny or tolerated, or they will be remembered this year.
This post have three purposes:
Previous anti-Burn Jita attempts failed for two reasons. One is that Goons mustered stupidly overpowering force themselves and also commanded their highsec servant RvB to wardec anyone who would be of any danger to Goons. They had multiple fleets responding to any attempt to interfere with their ganking. They claimed that during Burn Jita, you cannot attack Goons and live and it was and will be true. This lead to the other reason: no matter how many ships they lost, they were winning the war, as they couldn't care less about their ships, but they their victims and killed attackers did care. Their measurement of victory is in tears. You kill 10 ships and lose your own: you lost, because you cared about that ship while they didn't care about their own.
To defeat the Goons in the largest suicide ganking event, you must have the state of mind of a suicide ganker: "we both explode, but it costs him much more than it is to me". You must not try to fight the Goons, you must suicide gank them. It doesn't mean going GCC, merely the fact that your plan must include losing your ship. Your fit, your empty pod and the way you're flying it must make it clear that you are here to explode after taking as many Goons with you as possible. Only by obvious suicide can you prove them that you aren't crying over your lost ship, therefore deny them tears. If they know you won't cry over ship loss, they can't win against you. From there you have to do one thing: interfere with their ganks, waste their time and ships. Remember that if Goons go GCC, they can't gank for another 15 mins. So fizzling the gank at the cost of a single T1 cruiser or frigate or a few destroyers can waste 15 mins of hundreds of evildoers. The biggest enemy of a suicide gank fleet is lack of discipline. If just 1/5 of these guys go AFK and don't sit ready when the GCC is up, the rest can just wait and curse them! A few hits can be enough to take out a hundred men fleet!
Let me give some examples! Imagine a Goon Tornado fleet sitting on the Perimiter gate to volley down expensive targets. You are a war enemy of Goons so you can freely engage. You land a brawling AHAC fleet on them, kill some, an RvB-Goon brawler blob lands on you and you die and never undock again to avoid further losing of your expensive T2 cruisers. We seen this happening last year. Instead, you must land a fleet of meta-fit destroyers on the Goons, knowing that you have about 30 seconds to live before the Goon-RvB response fleet arrives. Destroy 5-6 untanked ganky Tornadoes, lose your 10 Talwars, give GFs, reship and hit another Goon fleet.
You can ECM as war target, you just need a good warpin, about 30km from their target. You can ECM them before they open fire, completely taking out gankers. Pick the bigger ships (Talos, Brutix). Very soon they'll kill you, but if you did it right, you fizzled their gank (practically killed all of them as they died to Concord for nothing) and got several kills booked.
If you are not war target of the Goons or any of their servants, don't use an instalocking Hurricane to pop Goon destroyers going GCC. Last year Goons landed a few destroyers, suicide ganked you and laughed. This year, use ECM frigs or Blackbirds at best with cheap meta fit, platinum insurance, empty pod. ECM out some Goons, they are as good as dead. They can't shoot (if enough can't shoot, they fail the gank), they'll die to Concord and you'll get their kill report.
As a non-war target, you can also place AFK orbiting, brick-armor tanked, platinum insured Scorpions on the gate with green jammers. They don't know if you are at the keyboard, so must overshot, or suicide gank you (this case just grab another one!). The point is to make it obvious that you don't care about your ship by losing it to them after ruining their gank. What are you waiting for?! Stockpile anti-suicide-suicide ships! I already have almost a hundred fit and ready, with insta undock and dock bookmarks in a Jita station with medical services.
Now comes the best part: truly griefing the Goons! PvP-ers can't do it, just real "carebears". Goons believe that you are scared of them and they are burning Jita to make you scared. They are typical schoolyard bullies, your (imagined) fear makes them feel strong. How can you ruin them? Grab your freighter or Orca and platinum insure it. Get an empty pod (you have time to mission up with an NPC corp, use the newbie corp if in hurry)! Into the freighter, put a double-wrapped package (create a courier contract by an alt for your freighter main, put the package into a can). They can't scan the package, but they see it's there. So off you go hauling this package in and out of Jita. Soon the Goons come and gank you. They waste the ships, the GCC and the sec status for one thing: to make you cry. So they are happy after a successful gank and open the kill report to see what was in your package. The more expensive it was, the more mad you are. But look! It's a civilian miner or a single tritanium or even better: Damage Control I! The obviously troll package makes it clear that you did it on purpose, therefore they got no tears! They wasted all the resources for nothing!
The truth is that suicide ganking empty freighters in 0.9 is stupidly wasteful. You need like 60 T1 catalysts for it. In a 0.5 ganker heaven like Uedama, you could do it with 20 destroyers. No way a 60-men fleet can undock every 15 minutes, so about 60*25 minutes wasted on top of 120M worth ships and security status. With insurance, you can replace your losses in 2-3 hours. This is why people don't regularly suicide gank empty freighters. Such act has about 90% ISK ratio for the ganked one. The Goons do it because they care about tear ratio. By obviously trolling them, you take tears out of the equation, leaving them with a pure ISK battle with 10% ratio. Last year they refused to gank my Orca, knowing that I wouldn't cry and the kill itself doesn't worth it. It's time to litter Jita with bait Orcas and freighters and prove that you didn't mind losing it by carrying troll package!
This post have three purposes:
- To inform PvP-ers how to fight the Goons in Burn Jita.
- To inform "carebears" how to fight and defeat Goons during Burn Jita without a gunshot
- To give Goons a last chance to realize their reign of terror is over and abandon their repulsive plan
Previous anti-Burn Jita attempts failed for two reasons. One is that Goons mustered stupidly overpowering force themselves and also commanded their highsec servant RvB to wardec anyone who would be of any danger to Goons. They had multiple fleets responding to any attempt to interfere with their ganking. They claimed that during Burn Jita, you cannot attack Goons and live and it was and will be true. This lead to the other reason: no matter how many ships they lost, they were winning the war, as they couldn't care less about their ships, but they their victims and killed attackers did care. Their measurement of victory is in tears. You kill 10 ships and lose your own: you lost, because you cared about that ship while they didn't care about their own.
To defeat the Goons in the largest suicide ganking event, you must have the state of mind of a suicide ganker: "we both explode, but it costs him much more than it is to me". You must not try to fight the Goons, you must suicide gank them. It doesn't mean going GCC, merely the fact that your plan must include losing your ship. Your fit, your empty pod and the way you're flying it must make it clear that you are here to explode after taking as many Goons with you as possible. Only by obvious suicide can you prove them that you aren't crying over your lost ship, therefore deny them tears. If they know you won't cry over ship loss, they can't win against you. From there you have to do one thing: interfere with their ganks, waste their time and ships. Remember that if Goons go GCC, they can't gank for another 15 mins. So fizzling the gank at the cost of a single T1 cruiser or frigate or a few destroyers can waste 15 mins of hundreds of evildoers. The biggest enemy of a suicide gank fleet is lack of discipline. If just 1/5 of these guys go AFK and don't sit ready when the GCC is up, the rest can just wait and curse them! A few hits can be enough to take out a hundred men fleet!
Let me give some examples! Imagine a Goon Tornado fleet sitting on the Perimiter gate to volley down expensive targets. You are a war enemy of Goons so you can freely engage. You land a brawling AHAC fleet on them, kill some, an RvB-Goon brawler blob lands on you and you die and never undock again to avoid further losing of your expensive T2 cruisers. We seen this happening last year. Instead, you must land a fleet of meta-fit destroyers on the Goons, knowing that you have about 30 seconds to live before the Goon-RvB response fleet arrives. Destroy 5-6 untanked ganky Tornadoes, lose your 10 Talwars, give GFs, reship and hit another Goon fleet.
You can ECM as war target, you just need a good warpin, about 30km from their target. You can ECM them before they open fire, completely taking out gankers. Pick the bigger ships (Talos, Brutix). Very soon they'll kill you, but if you did it right, you fizzled their gank (practically killed all of them as they died to Concord for nothing) and got several kills booked.
If you are not war target of the Goons or any of their servants, don't use an instalocking Hurricane to pop Goon destroyers going GCC. Last year Goons landed a few destroyers, suicide ganked you and laughed. This year, use ECM frigs or Blackbirds at best with cheap meta fit, platinum insurance, empty pod. ECM out some Goons, they are as good as dead. They can't shoot (if enough can't shoot, they fail the gank), they'll die to Concord and you'll get their kill report.
As a non-war target, you can also place AFK orbiting, brick-armor tanked, platinum insured Scorpions on the gate with green jammers. They don't know if you are at the keyboard, so must overshot, or suicide gank you (this case just grab another one!). The point is to make it obvious that you don't care about your ship by losing it to them after ruining their gank. What are you waiting for?! Stockpile anti-suicide-suicide ships! I already have almost a hundred fit and ready, with insta undock and dock bookmarks in a Jita station with medical services.
Now comes the best part: truly griefing the Goons! PvP-ers can't do it, just real "carebears". Goons believe that you are scared of them and they are burning Jita to make you scared. They are typical schoolyard bullies, your (imagined) fear makes them feel strong. How can you ruin them? Grab your freighter or Orca and platinum insure it. Get an empty pod (you have time to mission up with an NPC corp, use the newbie corp if in hurry)! Into the freighter, put a double-wrapped package (create a courier contract by an alt for your freighter main, put the package into a can). They can't scan the package, but they see it's there. So off you go hauling this package in and out of Jita. Soon the Goons come and gank you. They waste the ships, the GCC and the sec status for one thing: to make you cry. So they are happy after a successful gank and open the kill report to see what was in your package. The more expensive it was, the more mad you are. But look! It's a civilian miner or a single tritanium or even better: Damage Control I! The obviously troll package makes it clear that you did it on purpose, therefore they got no tears! They wasted all the resources for nothing!
The truth is that suicide ganking empty freighters in 0.9 is stupidly wasteful. You need like 60 T1 catalysts for it. In a 0.5 ganker heaven like Uedama, you could do it with 20 destroyers. No way a 60-men fleet can undock every 15 minutes, so about 60*25 minutes wasted on top of 120M worth ships and security status. With insurance, you can replace your losses in 2-3 hours. This is why people don't regularly suicide gank empty freighters. Such act has about 90% ISK ratio for the ganked one. The Goons do it because they care about tear ratio. By obviously trolling them, you take tears out of the equation, leaving them with a pure ISK battle with 10% ratio. Last year they refused to gank my Orca, knowing that I wouldn't cry and the kill itself doesn't worth it. It's time to litter Jita with bait Orcas and freighters and prove that you didn't mind losing it by carrying troll package!
32 comments:
As a non-war target, you can also place AFK orbiting, brick-armor tanked, platinum insured Scorpions on the gate with green jammers.
This is a great idea. Absolutely awesome idea. PLEASE DO THIS.
Keep fitting up more of them, Gevlon! PLEASE!
See, here's how this plays out:
We take neutral alts in NPC corps, in rookie frigates, and lock up every scorpion we see sitting on a gate. Either the scorpion auto-targets back, or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then we start bumping it, just to see if it's awake.
If it does, then CONCORD blows it up for jamming us. We get hilarious destruction and don't even have to suicide-gank.
PLEASE DO THIS.
For the empty pod, check to see if your player corp has sufficient standing with a suitable corp with medical clones.
If not, bounce your pilot through http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Jumpclone_Facilities
to make sure that after the grind you have sufficient permissions
@Arrendis: how could concord blow up the scorpion if it has safety green? You cannot activate hostile modules on illegal targets with safety.
You really do not understand how 'the goon mentality' as you put it works.
The mere fact that you're even considering these things and that you keep spouting anti goon agenda on your blog is literally the absolute pinnacle of enjoyment for them, it's WHY they do what they do and you're playing completely into it.
Personally I find it highly amusing that you think you're 'hurting their plan' while you're actually playing into it completely.
though by all means, go ahead and give them more free targets :)
JM
Sure. They are so happy about my plans that they abandoned all their highsec POCOs, just for fun.
You know the reality exists just because you yell "I don't care". Losses hurt Goons just as much as a highsec carebear.
If you're neutral to CVA, you can set up jump clones in H6-CX8. It's not too expensive if you fly a rookie ship out that way.
It's a few jumps through Null Sec, so you don't want to have good implants installed when you make the run. Provi block is NRDS, but lots and lots of other groups roam through there.
As it was explained to me, because you announced your intent you took the fun out of it for them So also suggest people start shouting in local where they are going and what they are flying have fun unfortunatly provi will sideline again if burn jita is on.
how could concord blow up the scorpion if it has safety green? You cannot activate hostile modules on illegal targets with safety.
If it has safety green, then it won't get blown up, sure. But it's also useless to sit AFK w/jammers green, unless you're expecting someone with an active criminal timer to go targeting the scorpion.
Bottom line: sitting there AFK with your jammers running (green), cannot produce any useful result unless your enemy is SO amazingly stupid, he is literally already able to be shot at with impunity and then he goes trying to kill a battleship.
Which will get him CONCORDed anyway.
The only other way the Scorpion is at all effective requires the scorp pilot to be there, not afk.
Provi Miner:
As it was explained to me, because you announced your intent you took the fun out of it for them
Not really. It just meant people knew to keep watching this space for more and more overblown hilarity about how killing idiots who deserved to get blown up, and refusing to actually fight when a defense fleet forms, is 'winning'.
@Arrendis: the Scorpion pilot isn't always AFK of course. He is active for some time and jam gankers. You can lock gank-looking ships (locking isn't a crime) and activate jammers when they go GCC. The gankers never know if you are AFK or not. See also: AFK cloaker.
also you can fit gank ships very easily against ecm.
you got enough spare slots to do so. dont loose any dmg etc.
then you cant spilt your modules on so many ships anymore, and the effect will be minimized.
there are so many solutions, its just hilarious.
Well keep in mind that not everyone is super rich like you and that super tanked scorpion or that meaningless orca will hace to be replaced with their not so rich pockets, wile the average goon will get reimbursed, get pap links (links you can click to show your participation in fleet) and get paid even more isk for his participation.
@JM you realise this is the whole point of...eve? Spaceships fighting, team against team?
It's a true sign of nullsec stagnation that while null leaders and diplomats chit chat on jabber for literally years, pretending to be big enemies, it takes gevlon to rally a new team out of highsec to produce some real, substantive, non artificial content in this game
the Scorpion pilot isn't always AFK of course. He is active for some time and jam gankers. You can lock gank-looking ships (locking isn't a crime) and activate jammers when they go GCC. The gankers never know if you are AFK or not. See also: AFK cloaker.
When he's afk, clearly, he's useless. AFK cloakers matter because they disrupt normal operations. The operations they disrupt are money-making operations in ships we don't want to lose. An AFK scorpion won't be disruptive, because nobody cares about losing the gank ships.
When he's not AFK, he's still useless. The guys he locks up can tell he's locking them, after all, and it's not like we say 'it takes X number of catalysts to kill a hauler, DO NOT BRING X+1!!'
So not everyone fires. Does he switch targets, freeing up his original targets? It'll take more time to lock the new ones than it will for CONCORD to show. Does he see something pop and screw up and start jamming? CONCORD's already on the way, so...
Seriously, Gevlon, please do this. Ignore the people telling you this will be nothing but hilarity.
And the best part is, you can't admit mistakes, so you'll do exactly that.
Muahaha....
We already fly Haulers with double wrapped courier contracts through jita, uedama and niarja.... they fall off the warp 15km short of the gate... mostly they get atteacked, we can engage the blinkies have their ships looted and salvaged and make profit by griefing gankers....
Can't wait to get a shot at Aaargh in Niarja though ^^
If you lose a freighter to a destroyer gank the gankers will - regardless of cargo - assume that you shed tears and/or are butthurt (not uncommon for people to start suiciding expensive assets once they reach a certain stage of feeling hurt by grrr goons).
Anything you can do will only serve as confirmation of either of these two assumptions. It's impossible to prove that you are not crying/butthurt/mad.
[i]If you lose a freighter to a destroyer gank the gankers will - regardless of cargo - assume that you shed tears and/or are butthurt (not uncommon for people to start suiciding expensive assets once they reach a certain stage of feeling hurt by grrr goons).
Anything you can do will only serve as confirmation of either of these two assumptions. It's impossible to prove that you are not crying/butthurt/mad.[/i]
Impossible?!?
Just leave a double wrapped waypoint with 'Gevlon send's his regards'.
Regurgitating their own history back at them while griefing one of their hallmark events, will cause every goon to rage-quit and take up knitting.
Keep it up!
Any kind of organized, prepared plan that gives players tools to use is a good thing.
EVE needs more of this- it doesn't matter if your naysayers are crying varying shades of "we didn't want that anyway".
Great way to generate content, and best of luck to you.
The problem, as Arrendis points out in every single post here these days, is that you are missing the point of Burn Jita.
Burn Jita isn't about collecting tears, market manipulation, or really anything. It's an event to show Goon solidarity; a campaign to fight in Jita ~for funsies~. Despite rhetoric from the many different sides, it's more akin to a team-building exercise than an actual engagement.
It doesn't matter if Goons "win" (kill a lot of ships) or "lose" (whelp hardcore). They are engaged with each other over voicecomms and having fun in a fleet-level engagement against unprepared pilots. There's literally nothing you can do to hurt Burn Jita, because it's not a campaign with a lose condition (unlike an actual campaign with proper objectives).
Not that you would understand this, since (by your own admission) you don't understand social behaviors.
It is impossible to kill that which is already dead.
Goonies Iam ready to throw Tons of ships After you! :)
Doc know
Indeed, I think I will "whore" some kills of CONCORD with the Blackbird I have docked in Jita.
Create caldari alt if,you are not caldari, buy 100s of meta 3 ecm mods (about 10k each I think) then use your free noob ship that has an ecm bonus(yep people forget it is a mini gtiffin), and jam like it's for free, it will jam destroyers, use a griffin or blackbird for bigger ships :)
So Tegiminis after being banned Eve24 is now trolling Ze Goblin.
So much for TMC neutrality when their editor resorts to blog comment to spin for The Mitts.
Look's like your plan is working Gevlon. Goon PropAgit section have you on their watch list. Next they'll be doing a article on your eviction.
Oh wait they did.. Which is highly unusual as they don't normal cover Eve.
Just go with the Ghandi defence to Burn Jita. The Jita system has a cap limit of 2200 players. Log in as many alts as possible into Jita. The more alts, the less Goons. My corp has over 40 already in play. That there is 40 goons who wont be having fun.
@Anon:
Just stating a simple, readily-obvious fact. Burn Jita is not something you can defeat, because it's not a campaign with a lose condition. There is no possible way to make the goons feel like they failed, which is the important bit, as the economic impact of any Burn Jita losses on a goon is approximately nil-point-zip.
Now, if there was a deployment to take sov, and you showed up with a fleet and disrupted the supply lines, then you are winning and the goons are losing. They have a concrete objective (set up supply lines and take territory) with a lose condition (cut supply lines and loss of territory.)
Actually I just had a thought as to the one possible lose condition of Burn Jita, which is related to the goal of "disrupt flow in Jita":
Block all attempts to enter the system.
Set up your interdiction in adjacent systems and pick off goons as they attempt to enter the system. You essentially cut off their flow before it can affect Jita's, pulling the ol' switcheroo.
Of course, this won't do much, since just about everybody has a jump clone and loads of inventory in Jita. But it's the closest you can get to truly stopping Burn Jita, because it's the only way to prevent the enemy goal of disruption.
If goons make it into Jita, if just for a second, you lose. But preventing any significant goon presence will "defeat" Burn Jita because they will be unable to carry out their express goal.
This is why your ECM ships are useless; as soon as a goon makes it in-system, that's it. You have to stop them before they arrive, not after.
@Tegiminis: you are too Goon-centered, looking only at the win and lose condition of Goons, claiming that Goons cannot lose Burn Jita as its purpose is merely to be together.
But there are other groups playing too. The highsec residentes have a win or loss condition. They lost if Goons made a massacre and won if Goons are massacred. I can't care less how Goons feel about Burn Jita. I care about what highsec people think about it. Every PvP-er who filed his killboard with dead Goons is a winner. Every PvE player who lost his insured troll-item carrying freighter to Goons is a winner. The highsec community is a winner if real freighter kills drop seriously. All these people will win.
This does not mean that Goons can't have their solidarity party, but hey, it's a game, everyone can enjoy an event!
@Gevlon:
The title of this article is "Defeating Burn Jita." You go to great lengths to espouse a plan to defeat the goons.
The very nature of this article is entirely centered around goons, because in order to defeat somebody they need to have a proper lose condition in place.
Some examples of common lose conditions:
- Lose your ship and be podded
- Be evicted from your wormhole
- Lose all nullsec sov
- Cede the battlefield to the opposing fleet
- Fail to provide a good fight
I'd say that the very proposition of this article, that there is a way to "defeat Burn Jita," forces a goon-centric view of the situation. In order to defeat somebody, you have to focus on their lose condition and make that your win condition.
Also, you ascribe way, way too much intent to goons. Ganking a troll freighter will do nothing but make them giggle. They aren't even remotely the serious people you think they are.
I'd stick to topics which don't require social intelligence, Gevlon. You don't have any. I don't mean this as an insult; some people just aren't cut out to examine social situations, and you are one of those people.
You want a way to truly defeat goons? Stop obsessing over them. Every post you make here that involves goons just makes them laugh at you more, and gives them a victory.
@Tegiminis: if highsec people stop being afraid of Goons, the Goon idea is defeated and GSF would be no different anymore than any other sov-grinding, ratting nullsec alliance.
@Gevlon
Not really?
Goonswarm's conceit is playing with others. It's not about extracting tears, manipulating markets, or being evil; that's just a facade. Goonswarm is the most social of any EVE organization. That's why they have decent fleet participation, a large forum presence, and a profound impact on the metagaming of EVE. The only way you can utterly destroy goons is to completely pervert and undermine that culture of sociability, which is so difficult that it may as well be impossible.
You should focus less on "how can I defeat goons?!" and more on "how can I hijack goon events and agendas for my own enjoyment." Ultimately, you can't defeat goons, because they have a common bond outside the game (SomethingAwful).
Your constant crowing about goons and how evil they are does nothing but ~reinforce~ that social structure. The only possible damage you can inflict on goons is in ignoring them, and even then you won't do that much.
GSF is a prime example of how social behavior can elevate a group above individual problems. There's nothing you can do to make GSF failcascade, or even significantly impact their influence.
Sure use that "Ghandi defence" (FYI it would be the Gandhi defense, doesn't anyone pay attention to their spell checker plug in?) because there is no way people getting bounced off the Perimeter gate by traffic control could result in mass slaughter.
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