Greedy Goblin

Thursday, April 3, 2014

March GRR project smugpdate

Another month passed, a glorious month! The headline is of course evicting Goons from highsec. The once proud Goon POCO empire is gone! No more Goon structures taunt the citizens of highsec.

Now let's see the kills! As you know, I fully analyze downloaded killboard data to filter out kill whoring. If you get 0.1% damage on a 100B titan, you'll be credited with 100M damage and not 100B. Using this data, Lemmings did 216B damage overall, 121B of it was done on CFC. So killboard activity of Lemmings have doubled since last month! Marmite killed 652B overall, which is a significant drop from last month and can be attributed to corps leaving and joining. However they still made 152B damage on the CFC.

This month Noir. Mercenary Group was hired to help finish the Goon POCO empire. While Lemmings were already taking POCOs, Goons and their highsec servants held out, telling themselves "they will get bored first, just one more POCO op guys". When Noir arrived, their hope faded since Noir is known to never quit and the Goons thrown the towel. Since most of the ops were forcing the enemy to form up and be idle, they didn't have much kills this month, 13.2B, but more than half of it was on campaign targets. All together 280B worth of Goons, renters and servants died in March, meaning that the total death toll of the GRR project is 2/3T ISK in 3 months, with constant growth.

Notable kills (the numbers are GRR participation, not total kill value): 1266M, 1182M, 8131M, 10978M, 700M, 509M, 838M, 634M, 817M, 7683M, 18766M, 545M, 2553M, 1648M, 7137M, 1136M, 567M, 571M, 719M, 1263M, 3153M, 770M, 1045M, 758M, 1127M, 955M, 541M, 537M, 592M, 1667M, 1115M, 525M, 1391M, 574M, 691M, 861M, 570M, 2034M, 2589M, 921M, 709M, 652M, 533M, 541M, 549M, 1483M, 585M, 666M, 702M, 1120M, 567M, 919M, 655M, 570M, 774M, 783M, 647M, 722M, 816M, 1597M, 1011M, 520M, 6336M, 1367M, 1215M, 808M, 7577M, 9995M, 8604M, 510M, 10740M, 6000M, 7256M, 523M, 883M, 1259M, 515M, 579M, 515M, 1361M.

Lemmings had 35.8B total losses, 13.9 coming from CFC elements, meaning 90% campaign ISK ratio (without whoring!!!). The highest damage enemies were RvB Red (6.4B), GSF (2.2B), RvB Blue (1.6B) and SMA (1.0B).
Marmites had 44.4B total losses, 10.7B coming from CFC elements, meaning 93% campaign efficiency. The highest damage enemies were RvB Red (3.7B), RvB Blue (3.1B), RAZOR (2.1B) and GSF (0.8B).
Noir had 6.8B losses, 3.1B coming from CFC elements, meaning 70% campaign ISK ratio. The highest damage enemies were RvB Red (1.2B), Gents (1.2B) and RvB Blue (0.7B).

What can I add? Celebration is well deserved. The Goons, who are here to "destroy your game" were beaten out of highsec and huge ISK damage was inflicted upon them and their servants with pitiful losses. If you are into PvP and looking for a good place to farm kills, join Lemmings! If you want to make difference in EVE, fighting evil, still join Lemmings, or donate if you are into making ISK. Here are those who donated money to me (Titania Goblin is the collector pilot) to be used for the GRR project:

There is one thing to add though. Goons usually keep their annual pogrom against "highsec pubbie shitlords" in April. If they are smart, this year they have "other things to do". But personally I hope they aren't smart. We have so much "content" prepared for them, I'd hate to see it wasted.


Anonymous said...

I dislike goons too but if these pocos now belong to rvb who are goon pets, how can you claim victory?

Gevlon said...

The POCO income is trivial. They clearly didn't worth our money for taking them or their money defending them.

They are symbols, monuments. A way of Goons giving highsec a finger. They are gone now.

Anonymous said...

You place a lot of credence in symbolism...

how about the practicality of the matter that goons still control the most lucrative POCOs in highsec. Trivial income to goons, sure. But to a small fledgling player corp who now has to pay the goons tax...instead of earning tax for themselves...

Arrendis said...

A way of Goons giving highsec a finger.

Yes, that's why Goons set their tax rate lower than just about everyone else's. Because they were giving highsec the finger.

Your narrative contradicts itself, Gevlon. If your purpose was to keep attacking Goon assets until Goons change their culture (your stated objective, remember?) then you need to keep on this. You need to go after RvB.

You are the one who has established a singular measurement for victory with your 'terms'. It is not killboard numbers (which you yourself not 24 hrs before crowing about them in this post managed to finally identify as meaningless), it is not in making Goons take Waffe's name off the POCOs. POCOs that even other commenters here recognize are, according to your narrative, currently in the hands of... Goons. Making money for? Goons.

No no, the measurement you established as a binary condition for victory (Yes/No) is making them 'reform'. Until and unless they change their behavior, you have not won. That was your stated objective, posted nice and clearly here on the internet where even if you go and edit the blog entry, a hundred different caching and imaging services have it preserve for anyone to find.

Can't move those goalposts, Gevlon. Until you achieve that, all your other efforts to claim victory are, well, irrelevant.

Gevlon said...

@Arendis: Goons won't reform just because we beat up their pets. RvB is an expendable asset. They aren't forgotten though.

Kills aren't meaningless. Yesterday I realized that PvP-ers CONSIDER them meaningless. It doesn't make it meaningless. You know the World doesn't disappear because you closed your eyes.

I didn't move the goalposts. The war will continue until they reform.

JimL said...

Why do you count the damage against RvB but do not count the POCOs they hold? Which is it? Do you consider them part of the Goon empire or not?

Gevlon said...

The RvB POCOs count as enemy assets of course. But they are not priority targets. Goon POCOs were priority targets, due to their symbolic nature.

An RvB POCO is simply ISK. More damage can be done to CFC with less effort elsewhere.

Anonymous said...

I also hope that we will do burn jita this year. And you will again see, that you can nothing do about it, other then dock-up :-)

Best thing is, next year, if you will realize that this project didnt archive anything. You will still do 150B dmg a months, but nothing will change. It was allways like this with highsecwars and will allways be like this. Soon you will understand...

jstk said...

I applaud the efforts of getting the pocos out of goon hands. They seemed to come a few times to defend them in the past, along with rvb so they obviously cared about them to some extent.

I'm still sad everytime I export materials on the forge planets when doing highsec production, though. :(

Gevlon said...

Stop being sad, move to Domain. Just 5 jumps from Jita!

Louis Robichaud said...

I can assure every one that the very reasonable poco tax is going to fund RvB activities, notably ship replacements for arranged red vs blue fights. Your tax money isn't padding Mittens 's wallet.

And let's give it to Gevlon: he accomplished his goal. It took ridiculous amounts of isk and efforts, but he made it!

Unfortunately, it's a bit soured by your own propaganda (RvB is a goon pet). Had you stuck to the facts, your victory would be sweeter.

Arrendis said...

Kills aren't meaningless. Yesterday I realized that PvP-ers CONSIDER them meaningless. It doesn't make it meaningless.

If your goal is to change someone's behavior, you must have leverage - there must be a reason for them to want to change, a pressure to change, or they will not change.

If your activities are something your target considers meaningless, this exerts no pressure, provides no leverage. This is not a reason to change.

Your stated goal is to foment social change in a population. Your mechanisms for doing so are ones that by your own words, they consider meaningless. This means you are doomed to failure.

There are ways to achieve your goal. They have been proven, time and again throughout history. A small-time* harassment campaign is not one of them.

* - Yes, small-time. For all that you're putting up 'big' numbers with 4 digits before the 'M', you are putting up those numbers against individual pilots. None of those kills are anything that would even give you a cramp in the wallet. You'd have to start looking at numbers for the entire campaign to approach levels that would break you - an individual trader.

Now amortize those losses across 50,000+ accounts. Why 50,000? Because I'm blatantly lowballing. The CFC is 37,000, and from there, you've included RvB and PBLRD, neither of which are actual CFC members, so not counted in that 37,000. So yeah, 3 alliances, 13,000 people, I'm definitely lowballing.

So amortize it over 50,000 accounts.

13,104,000.00 isk. Per pilot. Over three months.

You've cost us each a single Burst, pre-assembled, on-contract in some godforsaken shithole where the prices are jacked. Great Wildlands, maybe, I dunno.

This is not applying economic pressure on anyone, Gevlon. This is small-time. If you want to discuss what would exert actual pressure - what actually could have a chance at achieving your goals, I'd be happy to have that discussion with you. But just to have that discussion would mean you'd have to admit the possibility of error on your part.

And you won't.

Gevlon said...

You are right that the "average" CFC isn't suffering much damage. But the individual guy does. He is poor and dumb, otherwise he wouldn't be hauling his stuff himself in a cargo expanded cruiser. For him, losing 200M is serious thing. And what support he gets from his "friends": laughter, calling him bad and so on. He'll soon quit.

The rest of the line Goons can't care less. But the leadership does, because that idiot who lost a cargo expanded cruiser is just as good in a bombless bomber fleet as you. He is a valuable asset to GSF and losing him hurts GSF.

So sooner or later the Goon leadership says the same thing that they said about the highsec POCOs: it's easier to just back off. After all my demands aren't cutting into their empire. I'm not demanding moons or sov, just purging inactives and changing propaganda.

Anonymous said...

Losing 200 million isn't going to make any Goon quit. Newbees make 3-4x that amount by just showing up to their first fleet. You continue to demonstrate a complete lack of understanding when it comes to Goon culture.

Arrendis said...

You are right that the "average" CFC isn't suffering much damage. But the individual guy does. He is poor and dumb, otherwise he wouldn't be hauling his stuff himself in a cargo expanded cruiser. For him, losing 200M is serious thing. And what support he gets from his "friends": laughter, calling him bad and so on. He'll soon quit.

You seem to think that the individual line pilot exists as a vacuum of isolation. You also seem to think one loss will break someone's morale. How many of those people have you hit with any consistency? How many have you hit more than once? More than twice?

Here's what actually happens when someone does something stupid like that: Yes, his friends make fun of him. And then they help him recover, if it's even needed. Maybe one of them says 'dumbass, let me know when you need crap hauled, I'll take it in the jump freighter'. Let's assume the loss was catastrophic. Maybe folks get together to hang out and be social while doing group ratting, or the guy uses (maybe borrows) a noctis to clean up after corpmates or alliance-mates.

That's 'what support he gets from his "friends"', as you say. I've been that guy. I've lost something excessively expensive because I was an idiot and suffered a total brain fart. Shit happens. To everyone. And we cover one another on that, even as we give one another shit for it. Because we've all been there.

Social bonds are an important part of corporate/alliance structure. They're the very reason the CFC is successful. You seem to believe the average CFC pilot is surrounded by people who are just waiting, eagerly salivating, for the opportunity to turn on him, and that just isn't the case.

I don't refer to logi pilots as 'my guys' because I feel like self-aggrandizing. I do it because that's how I think of them. My job during a fleet is to take care of my guys. If one of them needs help outside of a fleet? I'm gonna help them out if I can. Same corp? Same alliance? Don't care, they're my guys. Same as 'my corp', and 'my alliance'. Social bonds, man. They're the knitting that holds everything together.

But again, how many of these victims are repeat victims? How long do you think the teasing and jokes persist? One guy gets blown up, he might take some ribbing for a day, a few hours... that's it. Which do you think he's going to remember more? The teasing, or the guys helping him recover? One of those experiences will get reinforced again and again - those blues (and greens) will help him out again and again in small ways, have hundreds of positive interactions. Advice, warnings in intel channels, shared accomplishments and hardships...

When you attack him, blow up his stuff, and put him in that position where he needs help? You reinforce those bonds. You make them stronger.

To think otherwise would require believing the vast majority of corporations in the CFC are populated by a majority of sociopaths. Or, you know... being autistic and not understanding how social bonds work. You can't fix that - you can't change the things that make you unable to grasp those social bonds on the same level most people can - and not being able to do what you are biologically incapable of doing is not in any way a failing on your part.

But when people tell you that social bonds don't work the way you believe they do, you should listen.

Sociology's not your strong suite, Gevlon. You just don't have a firm grasp on what makes people tick, or how people behave.

Like I said, this is not an effective strategy. This is inflicting negligible pain, in ways that serve to reinforce common bonds among your targets.

Anonymous said...

It's amazing how little you know about the social dynamic in null-sec alliances. Being called "dumb" or "fgt" or "rtard" doesn't make most people cry. They laugh it off as a joke, because they're being called it by friends.

Sure, losing a 200M Cargo Cruiser stings. You get mocked for it, snipe back as best you can, and move the fuck on. Because you were explicitly told (in the case of Goons) to not use alliance alts in high-sec, retard. But sooner rather than later, one of your friends makes a mistake, and it's your turn to remind him what a fgt he is.

The social structure is what makes it strong. It's why I once spent fucking weeks in a dread purging Kenzoku towers. Flying a Moros is an awful experience. But within the context of the social structure, it was a good use of my time: I was part of a group, we spent most of the time laughing, telling jokes, and talking about the dates we had tonight. Better than spending it in a lonely asteroid field, alone.

It also helps when you get unlucky and your shiny new Heretic gets blown the fuck up. People mock, laugh, and then help. You're part of the group, so they're more than willing to chip in some ISK to get you back flying. Because that HAC gang needs a Dictor, and they like having you around because you're fun to talk to and good at what you do.

You'll ignore all of this, of course. Lucas tried to point it out to you. Arrendis tries to point it out to you. You'll wrap yourself in the Flag of Galt and talk about how I should have spent those weeks mining, and completely miss the point. The social factor is what makes the best alliances strong, and what keeps pilots logging in. You've done nothing to keep any significant fraction of pilots playing WoT instead.

EVE is a game, and a unique one at that. If I wanted a game with rankings, I'd play Starcraft or League (and do). If I wanted a game that was a job, I'd... go to work more. But for a social, fun experience that's unmatched? Here I am. It's why I've been logging in for almost 8 years.

Gevlon said...

YOU don't understand the "Goon culture". Fun fact: the average Goon lost less than 1B in a YEAR in 2013.

You, who comment here are pretty hardcore players, proven by the fact that you are here on a game related blog. You laugh off 200M loss. For an AVERAGE GOON, that's 2 months of quota.

Actually more, as most of his 1B/year loss was reimbursed fleet loss.

You wrongfully assume that the average Goon/CFC is like you. No, he is not. He is much more similar to the highsec miner. He is a casual player, dumbly stumbling around. Gank him hard ONCE and he says just what a ganked miner says: "this game isn't fun".

Anonymous said...

You, who comment here are pretty hardcore players, proven by the fact that you are here on a game related blog. You laugh off 200M loss. For an AVERAGE GOON, that's 2 months of quota.

Nope. Just nope. Here's why. You are asserting that the amount the average goon loses in a year is the amount an average goon CAN AFFORD TO LOSE. The 2 are not one in the same.

As an extreme example (and by way of argumentum ad absurdum), assume I am a dedicated Station Trader earning a modest 1 billion a month or 12 billion a year. I never undock. My killboard will show that I have lost 0isk. It would be wrong to assume that the most I could afford to lose is 0. In fact, I can afford to lose much more than 0 (12 billion a year, in fact).

Just because on average goons lost 1 billion each a year does not mean that they could each only afford that loss. For a start there are plenty of goon toons and accounts who never engage in combat. I assume you've gone TOTAL_GOON_LOSSES/NUMBER_OF_GOONS = AVERAGE_GOON_LOSS... you should first normalize the data to exclude all accounts with _zero_ kills. That's as a start. It would also be fairer to look at the median loss value..averages can be adversely swayed by extreme outliers.

So Nope. You are still not having an impact.

mynnna said...

Honestly not sure why you think laughing at idiot goons who die in highsec and considering ourselves better off if they quit is NOT something that has not happened for basically the entirety of Goonfleet's existence. Not even like you and your pets being on the scene suddenly provides a bogeyman that wasn't there either. "Haha you idiot you died to lemmings" is the new "Haha you idiot you died to Privateers."

And this is hardly some "ivory tower" bullshit, I was not only a poor line member for far longer than I've been either fantastically wealthier than you or a director, but also suffered a dumb loss or two myself in the past, and shit, *I* laughed at me.

You understand goon culture about as well as you understand any other culture, which is to say, you don't.