Greedy Goblin

Friday, January 4, 2013

Why was I ganked while mining?

Dear miner,

You got here probably by a link you received in an EVE-mail from one of your gankers. You probably got a link to some kind of a code that you stopped reading after the first paragraph or, even if you finished, you rejected as "roleplaying blackmail". But luckily you are here so you aren't lost to the New Order yet. (Actually no one is as there is always a next letter after the next gank). So the letter promised economic reasoning behind the New Order. Behold!

You probably agree that bots are bad. Bots are cheat programs that allow you to gain game currency without player action. While a bot is usually dumb and can't make more than 10-15M/hour mining or 30-40M/hour missioning, let it run for 8 hours a day, 20 days a month, and you are looking for 1.5-2.5B/month from mining and 5-6B/month from missioning without doing anything. Bots devalue the effort of legitimate players, making the non-botters poor. We at the New Order decided to not suffer this and kill the bots.

- But I did not bot!
- I believe you, this is why you got the mail. No point sending mails to bots, they aren't really talkative. However, you did something that the Code define as "Bot-aspirant behavior": being AFK, mining for a long time. You might think that getting ice while watching TV is OK. But think about any game, League of Legends, World of Tanks or World of Warcraft battlegrounds where you get some points for playing. Are you happy when you have an AFK-leech on the team who just clicks every 5 minutes with a macro or manually while watching TV and get honor/experience/IP/whatever while making his teammates lose? If you are AFK-ice mining, you are that guy. You are obtaining ISK. There is no victimless crime! The money of the ice buyers is divided among the miners. If you get ISK AFK, those who are not AFK get less. The newbie giving up playing since his Retreiver can't mine enough to pay for a Mackinaw despite he mines hard? Your fault! If you are an AFK-miner, you are part of the problem.

- But mining is booooring! Do you really expect me to watch the ice cycle?
- Mining is not boring. Watching the cycle is indeed boring, but the cycle is just part of the mining process. The official game guide says that mining is a group activity. Did you mine in a group? No, being in some corp and mining alone isn't that. Did you mine together with fellow miners? It's profitable! The Orca boost can increase your yield significantly. Having a hauler in the group saves you from warping in and out to station. Having a refiner who has perfect skills and standings can completely remove the cost of refining. Having a dedicated trader can get you much better prices in the hubs. Having an ECM escort ship would allow you to safely mine in 0.5 systems. Hell, you could go wild sometimes and get to lowsec with a Venture gang and hit gas! You could make much more money while having fun with fellow players. It would be welcoming to newbies too, there would be mining gangs he could join. There are dozens of other miners in the very belt where you are. You could could cooperate with them ... if only they weren't AFK.

- But I can't do anything about them being AFK!
- Wrong! You experienced first hand that AFK makes no one immune from bumping or suicide ganking. The AFK miners and bots can be stopped! The New Order is full of volunteers who dedicate their time to clean the bots and AFK-ers. It's happening right in front of your eyes. I'm not telling you to go out and stand alone against the legion of bots like James 315 did at the beginning. I'm telling you to join a successful movement that cleaned whole ice belts of bots and AFK leeches!

- Where would you find enough people for breaking the bots?
- We found you! You are a miner, you are the perfect man for the job. You are already at the belt mining, it doesn't take much for you to keep your eyes open, try to talk with the other miners and if they are bots, dock and come back in a bumping ship. Or when there are gankers around, dock, relog to a 10 days old Catalyst alt and get rid of that bot. Instead of watching them taking away the ice from you, you could watch them explode! You could be a fearsome Dark Knight who strike down evil instead of a "carebear pubbie"!

- You can kill them in thousands and they'll just keep coming back!
- Wrong again: botting is not a "for fun" activity. It's true that no matter how many times I kill a lowsec pirate he won't stop reshipping and fighting. Similarly, if you kill a supercarrier, the pilot will not rest until he gets another one. But bots are motivated by profit. If you cause them more damage than the botting profit, he'll stop. Actually, you just have to cause them enough damage to make mission-botting more profitable and he moves to that. Or rents nullsec space and mines Arkanor which won't cut into your profit.

- CCP would stop them botting if they wanted to. CCP tolerates botting.
- Not true! CCP even have an anti-bot group and they have successfully driven off most RMT botters. They have a hard time with individual botters who run just a bot for themselves, don't spam ISK and actually play on their account, not just 24/7 bot. CCP needs hard evidence, letting 10 bots running is better than banning one legitimate player, which is a PR nightmare. We can do what CCP can't: come down on bot-aspirant behavior, just like we ganked you for AFK mining!

- Why do the Code demands me to pay 10M for "permit"? It's extortion!
- You think Catalysts are for free? Or that we pee Antimatter? 10M is a small donation for the cause. I myself donated 2B and I'm not even a miner. If you can't afford 10M, guess why? Because the bots took your profit! In this case mine ore in a Venture until you can afford, or run missions. Missions increase your standing with an NPC corporation, allowing you to get better reprocessing quota.

- Why do I need to put "I support the New Order!" to my Bio?
The support line in your bio is an advertisement for the New Order. Botting can only stop if it becomes socially unacceptable. If being a botter will be a shame and botters can't find corps and fleets even if CCP fails to catch them. If corpmates report and awox botters. The more people support the New Order, the less social recognition will the botters get. That line in your Bio makes botters pariahs! Also, how could other Code-following miners find you to form Orca-boosted gangs with?

- How can I join?
- One of the great features of the New Order is the low bureaucracy. While there are ganker corps, you can be in any corp, even NPC. Each Knight pays for his own ship and signs up for fleets when he wants. Agents (bumpers) act totally individually. To be an agent you have to do nothing but change your Bio to announce your support and start bumping. To be a Knight (ganker), you should come to the current HQ in a gank-fit Catalyst (you can buy one in the HQ usually) and announce in local that you are here to be Baptized! Soon you'll find a Knight who tells you how to do it and then you'll be in!

- It's all nice but I don't care. I want ISK without risk and effort. I will AFK mine!
Minion of Hell, by antimatter you will be purged!
Seriously! We will gank you again. You will find that AFK mining has negative ISK/hour: you'll lose more ships than you can AFK-leech ice! Hint: go mine Veld, we can't gank in 1.0-0.9 where the veldspar is. Yet.


Anonymous said...

AFK-aspirant behaviour? This is ridiculous. I wouldn't be doing this is CCP hadn't made making money ingame so hard, and now we have to put up with self-righteous gankers lecturing me. I am going to unsub until CCP gives all players hourly automated injections of cash so I won't need to mine and be ganked, and can enjoy pvp and raiding in highsec with my free time.

Anonymous said...

So how are you any different to all the other small time stand-over men? So unoriginal. More isk shit please. We know all about ganking and protection rackets. YAAAAAAWN...

Gevlon said...

@Another Byte on the Web: thanks for the grammar corrections

@First anonymous: automated cash? That's not even in World of Warcraft! Try Hello Kitty Online maybe.

@second anonymous: have you ever seen protection racket thugs who wanted the victims to join them?

Anonymous said...

there is an perfect afk job to make isk, its called trading. If someone afk mine and aint interested in active playing the game just tell them to read your blog about trading and spend that 30 mins aday for great amount of isk

Gevlon said...

Trading has risks. If you AFK mine and you aren't ganked, you get ice. Ice has some positive value.

If you set up orders they indeed fill while you are AFK. But you have a change to lose money on them. For example I bought Slave Epsilons between 480 and 530 to resell. They tanked to 430 in a week. I had 10. Half B loss on one damn thing.

Anonymous said...

hard to lose more than u earn tho, only time I lost was when I missclicked one 0 too much and bought implant for 3b instead of 300m. Been setting orders 1 sec after I woke up before work so I was damn sleepy :D
But ye, Ive never done any high volume orders like you to not lose too much in case of crash. Still had that 500m aday minimum.

Dàchéng said...

Gevlon, you seem to be saying that AFK trading is okay because it has risks. In that case why isn't AFK mining okay? It has risks, too.

And why is it leeching to be AFK while mining, but not leeching to be AFK while trading?

Gevlon said...

Trading isn't AFK. You can't change orders while AFK (that's boting).

Anonymous said...

Gevlon states that afk mining is bad because it effect prices and makes ore worth less which means the not afking miners earns less due to botters and afkers.

I do think the same about botters but not the afkers (unless they use macro)
I don't see problem why miners wouldn't afk if CCP clearly gives miners options of how they want to do that. They can either play in groups and use hulks which gives better yeld (not to mention 50% more ore boost from orca) or they can use mack and harvest ice solo afk with less than a half income.

CCP don't leave mining profession to group mining only, they changed their statement while giving us the mining barge update. CCP did state that mack is a great barge for solo mining and hulk is the best for group mining.

Dàchéng said...

Yes, very funny. You can certainly have your orders advertized and fulfilled while AFK. Why is that not leeching?

Gevlon said...

@Dacheng: Because I other players fill those orders. Filling or not is their choice. Filling a Mackinaw with ore is automatic.

mordis mydaddy said...

I agree with James_315 in principle, but his approach is bad. If you read much of his blog, you will see that paying his protection fee doesn't buy you any protection. He and his minions still degrade, belittle, and bully those who pay. He makes them ask for permission to go to the bathroom. He encourages his "Knights" to still gank those who have paid. That makes it a scam. And that doesn't even account for the religious crap that, even in a game, most spiritual people would find blasphemous and unacceptable...calling him the holy father and needing to be baptized, etc.

You and he say this is a war against bots, but what kind of real person would subject themselves to his racket? Only a botter would pay his fee since they are AFK mining and don't have to see his continuing ill-treatment of his payers. I do see why you join his cause. You made isk quickly and find that that is no fun. Now you are looking for some fun from EVE. I read his blog because the tears are funny sometimes. But that is a long way from actively supporting his ridiculous scams.

On second thought, you two are perfect for each other...

Anonymous said...

This might be one way to make mining a bit more interesting. Use the second account to bump everyone out of range while the miner is mining.

I wouldn't pay for 10M extortion but I might be inclined to pay a bit more if they cleaned out a specific belt for me.

Dàchéng said...

So it's only the advertising of your market orders while you are AFK that is leeching, Gevlon?

Anonymous said...

Let's say you stop bots from mining. What that will cause? Everything would be more expensive. In my oppinion traders are more evil than some stupid bots. They make money out of nothing.
Mining has always risk of being ganked. Why should I care about bot mining. The whole EVE economy is based on bots.
Well, good luck with this if you think it is funny and you are not wasting your time.
PS: I do not have any bot, I mine very occasionally and I have been ganked several time in last 2 years while mining. And I still think this is stupid - give us 10m isk or die. We are the only masters of universe .. hahah. 10m isk is nothing but why should I support someone else for nothing

Anonymous said...

"In my oppinion traders are more evil than some stupid bots. They make money out of nothing."

Traders don't "make money", they take your money.

And you give them your money willingly because they provide a valuable service by making the market more liquid.

They don't create any minerals or build any ships on their own but they make mining or manufacturing attractive career choices by ensuring that the miner or industrialist always gets a good price (and instant turnover) on the market.

(disclaimer: you could probably argue that traders do create money by making the market a better place - which reduces the incentives for hoarding and increases the velocity of money)

Bobbins said...

Assuming you are moderately effective at ganking you have yet to say how you defeat the procurer/skiff + orca setup up?
How many orcas have been taken out by the new order?
How procurer/skiffs have been taken out by the new order?

A successfull new order would see bots move to the procurer setup. The only real effect of targeting miners would be to increase the price of ice and thus the botters profit as it is probably as easy to bot in a skiff as a mackinsaw. (definitley easier to bot in a skiff than afk ice mine.

Anonymous said...

The morality of AFK mining is irrelevant. Anyone in this game is free to try to blow up anyone else, complaining about being ganked is like playing chess and complaining that someone killed your bishop.

Johnicholas said...

You might have some interest in the upcoming paper by regarding adverse selection and moral hazard in EVE Online insurance by Juha Tuvanen. This is merely a mention (in Finnish) of the paper:

But in the ARMS final report there's another reference to it:

"Tolvanen, J. Asymmetric information in the insurance market for space ships – a
quick look at the early results (working paper – available on request)"

Anonymous said...

I do find it funny (hilarious even) that you were so against the TEST circlejerk, but are completely happy to participate in the "New Order" circlejerk...

Don't get me wrong, it is hilarious to make miners squirm, but you have completely bought the bullshit on this...

The motivation was purely and simply a protection business, and good old fashioned highsec bullying. But you all pat each other on the back about the "good" you are doing for highsec mining and bot removal...

Amused :)

Druur Monakh said...

It's amusing to see you abandon objectivism and promote social game behavior.

Also, your definition of 'leech' needs updating: ice miners don't rely on other people mining for them, don't diminish the ice supply for others, nor are forcing people to buy their 'cheaply produced' ice.

Anonymous said...

How is bringing prices down through AFK mining worse than bringing prices down through arbitrage?

Agent Trask said...


This is a game, not RL. Objectivism in game means you are just roleplaying Objectivism, instead of acting on it in RL.

This game has PvP and PvE elements. Gevlon was doing PvP in WoW, is still doing financial PvP here, tried some nullsec sov PvP, and is now trying Highsec PvP.

And having a lot of fun roleplaying as well.

Why the hatred? You should congratulate him for finding an RP venue he enjoys.

Highsec PvP is challenging. CONCORD adds a whole 'nother dimension to the sport.

Agent Trask said...

Anonymous: How is bringing up prices, by either arbitrage or PvP bad or evil?

It is allowed by the game.

My main makes a lot of money on PvE activities and industry.

This is all a good for him.

My transport alt mines when not busy. The Order means he can make even more money selling minerals. He has his permit, and wears his Order bumpersticker on his barge proudly!

And spends his free time while mining passively scanning down and reporting tank strengths of his non-compliant mining neighbors!

Anonymous said...

Gevlon has joined forces with the New Order because, like them, he has the concern to see that the Eve universe continues to attract and nurture new players.

New players like myself have subscribed to Eve because of James 315 and the New Order and it's encouraging to me to see people like Gevlon taking their time to pass on ideas and tips to others.

Whatever you think of ganking miners in High Sec, it cannot be denied that the New Order creates player involvement and interaction where ever it operates, adding vital energy to the game and encouraging new players to get involved and explore Eve.

Congrats on the ganking Gevlon, I look forward to flying with you again soon o7

Druur Monakh said...

@Agent Trask: Either Gevlon is the greatest role player of us all, staying in character on his blog every minute and second, before even getting involved in in-game RP.

Or Gevlon ignores the roleplaying nature of the New Order and sees it as an avenue to finally spread his RL objectivist ideas in game.

Having read his earlier philosophy posts, I am afraid it is the latter.

Anonymous said...

So you are all a protection racket? Right?

So, I don't play "your way" and must pay you for the privlege? Well, I think that is quite cute that your wrap yourselves in the flag of a "moral high ground" while just being thugs. I got ganked with no "code" warning, not any attempt to determine if i wasn't actually at the keyboard. In fact, I was trying to align before I got ganked. Pretty clear I was watching, not?

Game on.

Anonymous said...

The problem is that your just ganking people, there is no way for you to see if people are active mining or afk so you just kill every retriver you can find, and go on about your holy mission.

how do you want people to mine so you can see that its not afk mining ?

And do you have to pod kill people ? i have never seen anyone mine in there pod.

I think the reason your doing this is because you get beaten up if you do go against people that defend em self. So you have made up this holy quest so you have an excuse to kill defendless people.

Anonymous said...

Wow, so many commenters are completely missing the point.

They aren't actually opposed to AFK mining technically, however the only real way they're going to establish if a miner is a bot is by talking to them, if you're AFK you can't deny you're bot if they ask, thus ganking/bumping ensues.

Besides the point anyway, if you're going to AFK, then accept the consequences that there's a chance your ship isn't going to be there wen you return . . . would you go into a mall and leave your keys in the car and door unlocked? Of course not, it will get stolen, same rules apply here. You want to take a risk, don't cry when it bites you in the ass.

Anonymous said...

I stumbled on this website and all i see is some scammer trying to set up a racket. It's BS.

Good thing this is a game. You would be committing a felony otherwise.

Of course, as the game has links to real currency and what you are doing isn't in the realm of the game but via your own communication, I'd say it is possible to prosecute under the RICO laws.

Maybe not too probable, but possible.

I can say I wouldn't be pleased if someone did. One less bully in the world wouldn't be too bad.