Greedy Goblin

Monday, April 18, 2011

Bound by guild rep

People whine that guild changes became almost impossible as you lose your guild reputation that you build over long weeks. I'd like to point out how nonsense this claim is. At first, you can lose no items in WoW. If you bought an item, it's yours and can use it after you left your guild.

If you leave your guild with X rep, your only loss is that some later purchases are delayed. For example if you are 5999/6000 friendly with your current guild, you are one quest away from buying heirlooms, if you gquit or get kicked, you have to grind 3 weeks before you'd get the heirlooms.

This sounds like a serious loss if we think of the 12 weeks needed to max rep. However, let me show two screenshot-collections from the guild vendor in honored and exalted rep:

Honored rep is very easy to get, 3 weeks, 3+6K rep. If you are already honored, you can buy the items. If you are 1-2K rep away, you grind the rep and quit later. If you miss more than 1-2K rep, you are losing only 7-8K rep that is easy to replace.

Now let's see the exalted vendor. It has 3 more items. 2 pets and a mount. So if you quit/kicked before reaching revered/exalted, your mount and pet purchases are delayed. This is the terrible shackle that "forces" people to stay in guilds against their will.

This is a joke. Delaying 2 pets and a mount can't hold anyone back. The real "shackle" is in their mind. They are losing rep that they "worked hard" for. The fact that this rep is good for nothing doesn't bother them. They have it. They don't want to lose it. "My precious!" No wonder while all leading MMOs have strict no-loss rules. If you got it, it's yours until it becomes obsolete and replace it on your own. No monster or player can take it from you.

This risk aversion holds most people from making business. Even a slight chance of loss is unbearable for them. That's why they rather farm than invest into crafting. "Losses are no fun!" says the poor guy. "No pain, no gain!" says the rich one.


Anonymous said...

My calculation is that 9000 Guild Rep is about 200 dailies. Depending on how you count travel time, that could be 30 hours of effort from me.

I expect to be paid over $1000 for 30 hours of effort for my employer, so I think changing guilds is about the same pain threshold as $1000 . It is not prohibitive, but I do not consider it trivial either.

Anonymous said...

taking a risk is something for people that can afford it (in my opinion). if a loss is devastating, don't risk it. if you have a fail-save (like reserves or the 'nothing can happen in rl' rule for games), go for it.

Anonymous said...

"only grind 3 weeks "

thats a lot of time to other people,
also not everyone can cap it weekly

by the way: only rep rewards i would care about are heirlooms. Rest is just fluff

Anonymous said...

A fitting and very interesting read, the Sunk Cost Fallacy. Closely related to "I don't want to lose stuff".

Anonymous said...

since you keep the pets/mounts even when you change guilds it is even less painful, you only lose your access to heirlooms, and if you consider changing guild just buy all of them before you do

guild reputation is just an excuse not to change guilds, it is no more something to keep you to your guild than your "friends" are, just as easy as you can get new friends in a new guild you can get new reputation in the new guild.

Anonymous said...

@ first Anon. The point is that once you have the vendor items you want, you don't have to grind it again.

You need to gain 22,180,300 xp to go from 80-->85. 1/4 of this is applied to the guild as guild xp, and guild rep is applied at 1 rep per 450 guild xp. Therefore, it is possible to get 12,322 rep just from leveling. Now noone will get that much rep because you get kill xp while leveling that does not contribute to guild xp, but still a good portion of the rep comes from leveling...which everyone did at some point.

the guild rep cones as a byproduct of things you do in the game. Noone 'grinds' guild rep.

Grim said...

@first anon

You get guild rep from pretty much doing anything with the guild. One HC boss kill gives ~3 dailies worth of rep. A raid boss is even more. Currently multiple-boss encounters award the reputation per-boss (Omnitron = 4x the rep that, say, Magmaw gives).

So really - as long as you are active, the rep will accumulate on its own.

And you only need to get it to exalted once with any guild, to get all the rewards. Unless you are constantly guild-hopping, it shouldn't be a problem.

And really - if you go out of your way to grind for 30 hours JUST to get the guild rep... you probably didn't have anything to do with your time anyway.

Jabarj said...

Actually, 2 mounts and 2 pets, it's just that you guys don't have the dark phoenix available yet (just a matter of time until nefarian is killed).

On topic, completely agreed, if you don't want to stay in a guild simply don't stay in it, guild Itens are not enough to "SHACKLE" anyone...

scotth said...

The way all of the guild stuff is set up does not seem very encouraging to newer players. Rep accumulates very slowly unless you are at the level cap. If you do not have a max level toon, you are going to be in instances and battlegrounds with people that have a lot of heirlooms. To me anyway, it just seems to enforce the end game is the only thing that matters attitude that Blizzard seems to have.

Anonymous said...

@ 22,180,300 anon: that points out the difference between level 1-80 and 85: I.e. once you are 85 then ongoing you can do dailies or make sure your heroic runs are guild runs. Naturally, if it is a guild run Blizzard will penalize you by not giving you the full 15% buff and you are not eligible for the upcoming Sack of Tank Bribery.
( If you are killing Lady S every week you probably don't have many WoW problems.) As one blogger posted, the majority of things Blizzard initially said would give guild rep ended up not giving guild rep in the live version

Note also that level 85 alts complicate things: they may not be getting a lot of raid time.

To be more precise: "If you do not need BoAs in the immediate future, you can easily switch to another guild that is level 23+, preferably 24+"

I.e., if you care about crafting and virtual gold instead of virtual dragon kills, then on economically competitive realms, it is a considerable help to not be at a disadvantage.

Derkhan said...

Totally agree, I also think many of the Guild Perks are not usable to anyone who plays with any regularity. I quite a guild with my main at nearly exalted, joined another in 3 weeks now, not putting in hard effort, on the way to honored easily. So yeah its like a psychosomatic illness these people have who think its a huge loss.

IrOn TuRtLe said...

Does this problem actually exist? Every time I see it raised, it is in the 3rd person abstract, ie, "people don't want to change guilds because they'll lose rep." I have yet to see an example of anyone saying "I would change guilds, but I don't want to lose my reputation."

Eaten by a Grue said...

Iron Turtle, that is a good question. I have yet to meet anyone who complained about losing guild rep. I do not think anyone cares much about any of the items you can buy.

Anonymous said...

What I do not like about leaving a guid and lossing rep is now I can not use the flask cauldrons that I made in the past. My guild didnt give me mats to make cauldrons. I made these cauldrons with my own mats and since leaving my previous guild I have to earn rep to use them in my new guild.I find this very irritating. Punishing me for leaving a guild by not allowing me to use flask cauldrons I made!

Lei said...

I'm exalted with every faction that present in cataclysm, I bought everything from Baradin's wardens, so I only do daily cooking (got all recipes, but who knows what will they introduce later), and daily JC. If you don't run dailies with your guild (but I doubt you can be capped by your daily hc run, also in a small guild you most likely wont get 2 other people to run with you that needs to get guild rep...), you are screwed to build up your reputation.
Luckily, Blizz seems to add 2 tabards (noone knows how they work yet) that fastens the repu grinding.

Healer24 said...

"People whine that guild changes became almost impossible as you lose your guild reputation that you build over long weeks."

What people? Where?

DSJ said...

Actually Gevlon's analysis is completely off since the things you are losing aren't in the items you buy on the vendor ... they are the loss of the additional justice, honor, xp, and reputation gains you make from being in a guild with the level to reach the bonuses that are opened up. The items of course are status items with a one time purchase cost... the major cost to me at the moment of wanting to change guilds would be the loss of an additional +10% to every effective participation currency in the game.

The current system rewards longer established guilds and provides a clear incentive to prevent guild hopping. It also makes certain that any minority group within a guild unsatisfied and seeking to form their own would have to factor in the costs to each individual in the form of lost points. Prior to leveling guilds, achievements, and guild perks there were no real effective costs to starting a new guild from established players, that is no longer the case.

In the case of a new player without a guild looking for one an established social guild with a level high enough for the xp bonus is obviously your best option regardless of almost all other possible factors.

My prediction is that the Looking for Guild function will very quickly segregate most of the guilds based on current level. Those already at a high level will see thier recruitment jump and those just starting will quickly fold and be absorbed. This may very well be an unintended consequence of the changes but it should have the effect of moving the distribution of guild sizes higher.

Anonymous said...

Yes it does exist. My guild has fallen apart and I plan to xfer servers but am waiting until 4.1 to get a tabard because I am exalted with my current guild and don't want all my time spent getting to this rep to be wasted.

I was exalted the first week possible and have done ever cata quest available, so if/when I join a new guild it will be a long boring daily grind to get back to exalted without a tabard,

IrOn TuRtLe said...


I stand corrected. I also stand in utter bewilderment as to why you care so much about being exalted.

Pzychotix said...

@DSJ: Uh, unless I missed something somewhere, you don't need rep in your new guild to enjoy the perks there. So perks have nothing to do with guild rep. Please try again.

Unknown said...

Gevlon isn't entirely correct in what you "lose". The items that require a certain rep for use (like the standard of unity) can't be used when entering a new guild until you grind back to honored again.

csdx said...

Actually I usually hear the complaints that the issue would tend to be in the breaking off and forming new guilds.
Thus if your in a raiding guild and there's a set of you who don't want to have to carry the rest, leaving to reform into a new guild puts you at a serious disadvantage due to losing all the perks of guild level.

The issue is less about migrating to an existing guild, but trying to start up something new, because people want those perks that come with a 20+ guild, not having to work for them all over again.

Anonymous said...

@dsjI think the guild level 24 (10% more disenchant gather mats and 10% lower vendor costs) seems to be what you would look for if you were in the market for a new guild now.

Azuriel said...

If you bought an item, it's yours and can use it after you left your guild.

Actually, you are wrong (again). You cannot use the Battle Standards or Cauldron of Battle without being at least Friendly in a guild. Losing the ability to gain +10-15% bonus honor for simply pushing a button in the last minutes of a BG is not trivial if you are trying to get purchase better PvP gear.

Honored rep is very easy to get, 3 weeks, 3+6K rep.

Three weeks based on... doing dailies every day? Running heroics you don't need anymore? Doing normal quests, of which you don't really have many left, since you did them when you actually went to 85 to begin with?

There is an element of Sunk Cost Fallacy going on here, as an earlier Anon poster pointed out. That said, if you have been working towards, say, getting the Armadillo pet (e.g. farming critters) then your argument that "it's all fluff, ergo you aren't chained to your guild" is asinine. Even if you switch to a guild that already has it unlocked, you do in fact lose progress towards that goal, just like anyone loses progress when they switch mains, or decide to try Enhance after already buying the spellpower weapon from TB commendations, etc. For you, of all people, to claim that time is irrelevant is the height of hypocrisy.

I stand corrected. I also stand in utter bewilderment as to why you care so much about being exalted.

You claim bewilderment about filling up bars in an MMORPG? I'm more bewildered as to why you would even play this game without setting up completely arbitrary, nonsense goals. Hitting exalted is not objectively different than getting all Vicious geared, or all the tier pieces, or 1 million gold, etc etc, considering the game is "beatable" and experience-able with less.