Greedy Goblin

Wednesday, January 12, 2011

Why the nerdrage?

I often go to Tol Barad. Horde has the nasty habit of taking it at late night - early evening. They most probably have a team that plays in the different timezone. This means that every day we have to capture it. Attacking is not impossible, actually it's not even the unfavored side if people play well. Well, most don't. Fighting on the road. Not calling incomings. Not destroying towers. But above all: not leaving a base where we won, idling at the flag until fully captured or killing that last hordie who lost his way, while the other hordies are zerging other bases.

I don't only call incomings and direct people to bases where needed. I am busy calling morons morons, retards, idiots and so on. Also, when defeat is sure, like 2 minutes before timer is up and we have 1 base, I name and shame those who did the most to make us lose like "Deathhitman was meleeing a hunterpet" or "Elieré, Bozzoman and Aion were fighting on the road while the base was taken just behind them".

Many people whispered me, telling that what I do is counter-productive. While they agree that the morons are morons, they believe that calling them one does not make them perform better. They either /ignore me, not seeing further instructions, or just troll the chat "i play as i wanna" or "lol itz justa game" or "i cba 2 try lol". I should be more encouraging, empowering like "Arthasdklol, you did great pwnage on the road, could you help us out at Slag?". They believe it would be much more effective than "Arthasdklol you useless idiot, don't fight on the road, move to Slag!"

They are completely right. However my priority is not to win Tol Barad. That place is a design disaster and it's irrelevant for both PvE and PvP progression (bosses, ratings). Also, all our efforts are futile, at the morning TB will be horde anyway. My priority is to recruit. No, not by the on-win macro, that informs the players that the little pre-made of The PuG was spearheading this victory.

The strongest recruitment tool is defeat. The people I want to recruit are currently in social guilds. They are boosting M&S, but making themselves believe that these are their friends and just don't have gear, or don't have enough playtime (proven by violet drake) to be good. They close their eyes to the obvious failing to their "friends", believing that "it happens with anyone". Yes, sure, it happens with even the best sometimes that they show up in raid ungemmed, unenchanted, dieing in the fire and doing less DPS than the tank in the 30 secs spent alive, trolling the chat with stupid jokes. Everyone can have bad days right?

To not boost this filth is socially shunned. If you refuse to, you are "selfish" and "not helpful". If you criticize them, you are "mean and elitist". If you play to win you have "no life" while they are "laidback fun ppl". To leave their suckguild is "betrayal" as you "left them after the guild geared you up". Lot of good players are socials and imprisoned by these beliefs. While they know that the M&S could do better, they feel there is nothing they can do about the M&S without being mean, elitist, bad people.

Here comes Tol Barad defeat. While my critics are completely right that my show is useless to make the M&S better, they are not the target audience. The target audience is the skilled social guildmate of the M&S. The show has three major purposes:
  • An obvious display that the M&S are M&S. You can't explain fighting on the road with "low gear" or "relaxed playing schedule" or even "inexperience". They were told to fight in the base. Everyone else did. They didn't. They are either totally stupid, or really don't care about their teammates who want to win.
  • Serving as a role model for interaction with them. These people have never seen anyone confronting with the M&S. First, they might be shocked that someone call them retards. But since there is no other opinion (no one will write in /raid that "fighting in the road is good"), they - exactly because they are social - will accept the "they are retards" statement as group opinion. They are currently in a social frame where boosting morons is the norm and leaving them is bad. I conjure up the illusion that these norms are just true in their guild and in the big audience the social norm is insulting them. This will alter their moral perception about "boosting is the right thing to do".
  • Using their frustration. We lost. We did our best for half an hour and lost. People are pissed. Thy are frustrated. Maybe even self-frustrated (I failed, I could have done better). I direct their current, immediate negative feelings towards the M&S. "No, you have not failed. Arthasdklol failed you and us". The point is to incite negative emotions against the M&S. Next time when Arthasdklol asks for a boost, he will have a bad feeling about it.
The socials look at the M&S as "normal bad things" like the rain in Autumn. They believe it's something "we must accept with dignity" and also that "we must help our less fortunate/geared friends". It's not a conscious belief. They were risen with this leftist nonsense. They accept in as an "obvious fact" just like a guy risen in dark neighborhoods accepts the voodoo as a natural fact. I want to show them an alternative. I want to place a seed of doubt into their social head.

I want to show them that there are no consequences of resenting the M&S. I mean my "/rw arthasdklol you are a useless moron" is leagues away from the little step I expect them to do: "arthasdklol, I'm sorry but I do not have time to tank some HCs for you". I want to show them that despite I did something they don't even dare to think of (namecalling one in /rw), the Sun came up next day. The World have not collapsed on my "unimaginably asocial act" and my guildmates did not /gquit in disgust of my "terribly elitist behavior". Strike that, there are more and more guildmates coming.

PS to Godwin-trolls: The M&S is not a national, race or sex group. It is a self-chosen behavioral group like "thieves", "vandals" or "people who urinate in the elevator". No one is forced to be one. While I do wish to eliminate the M&S, it does not mean elimination of people, but the elimination of a behavior from the people (just like elimination of smoking does not mean the elimination of smokers).


Carson 63000 said...

My favourite thing to do as a TB defender is to lure foolish attackers into fighting me in the road. They can't resist beating on a harmless priest.. harmless, but damn, it takes a long time to kill me. Haha!

Squishalot said...

What makes your priority of recruitment more important than, say, a player's priority of 'having fun' by trolling and causing people to be angry? They're both self-serving, and they're both counter-productive with regards to the particular task at hand, whether it's winning Tol Barad or completing a heroic dungeon.

The attitude that it's ok to act contrary to the interests of the raid that you're working with is precisely why you want the M&S out of your raids, so it is hypocritical to take that attitude going into Tol Barad.

To paraphrase your demonstration of the qualities of the M&S:

"They were told to empower the masses by calling out successes rather than abuse. Everyone else did. They didn't. They are either totally stupid, or really don't care about their teammates who want to win."

You don't care about the win, you only cared about your recruitment. By this definition, that makes your attitude in Tol Barad no better than Arthasdklol's attitude of fighting on the road.

Squishalot said...

On a side note - it only takes a small group of people to click 'Report Spam' for you to get banned for overusing "/rw", if it does get overbearing.

Regarding your comment to the Godwin-trolls, you have long preached the thought that driving the M&S from the game is better than spending time educating and eliminating the behaviour from the same people. That is very much at odds with your post-script statement in this post. Until I see that mentality backed up in your actual posts (i.e. educating rather than marginalising and bullying), I cannot believe your statement.

Ðesolate said...

I had some argument with M&S at the official forum. This time I censored every "bad" word, without one. They drew the "I´ve got a RL so you must be unemployed" card again. I called it by the name, that this is a faschistic argument. Well Blizzard gave me a 9 day ban for writing that.

Anyway edjucating M&S seems to partially work, but It´s a work of a lifetime. I´ve edjucated 13 / 17 attemted M&S by different methods, every time using another toon. I took me about 2 hours each.

By that my personal result is eliminating M&S from my part of the game. Joining the PuG and refusing to tank for random groups and unknown players with my main are just part one of a new strategy.

I´m starting to build up the reputation, that I´m an eletist asshole. By that M&S and socials will avoid me.
If this should fail and I can not cloud my playing hours in ignorance of the M&S then I´ll take up the last step, transferring my main to the PuG or creating a similar project (personally prefer first).

I want to have fun by playing and I want to play the game my way. Is it abnormal that this way is the way the game was designed for? Why do we have to feel like refugees ultimately fleeing into a safehouse like the PuG ignoring all language barriers.

I think that´s why the PuG works so well, we all know that we have our last stand here before ragequitting.

Gevlon said...

@Squishalot: I am playing Tol Barad properly. I am not sabotating anyone's victory. The fact that I'm not motivating M&S doesn't make me worse than anyone else in the raid (as they also not motivating them, merely ignore them).

Also, you have the completely wrong belief that the M&S needs education. Newbies need that. The M&S is not uneducated, it's "cba 2 try lol". Making the currenly M&S person a better one needs punishing him, excluding him. NOT to keep him excluded, but to motivate him to do what's needed to not be excluded: act properly.

Zovi said...

Sometimes it's not even worth to write about this sort of thing. I've reached a certain level of intolerance for their idiocy, that by now, I just plain ignore them (I've had to deal with something similar to the Grandmaster of M&S for the past 10 or so years of my life, every single day).

You end up creating a certain immunity.

The truth is, there's no fixing them. I was a moron too. Not on this level, since this level has developed in recent years. I was a moron when the internet first flourished. This level of M&S comes from the likes of "narutards", "4chan users", and several other stereotypes.

As a rule of thumb: the higher caste of geeks and nerds. And the whole "geeky" argument should be discussed. I believe you should bring that up in your posts Gev.

A post about geekiness, about how the people who we portray as being the "socials" in WoW, are typically guys/gals who are ANYTHING but social outside their houses.

I'll give you a headstart: they give extreme importance to what people say about them in-game (and react accordingly... with "<3" and "^^ luv u" if you're nice, and "STFU YOU CUNT" if you're not), due to the simply fact that no one else cares about them outside.

Even the few who have a few friends outside, are still tiny, compact groups of geeks.

I for one, love several things about Penny-Arcade, for example. Some of their work is hilarious. Then again, when you hear their opinion about WoW and how they play all "socially" and in a "cozy environment", I feel like barfing.

Zovi said...

Overall, those who don't give a damn about social behaviour in-game, are typically:

a) People who actually have an active social life, and simply want to play the game properly and "get on with it, no strings attached, let's just get this done well".

b) Loners, who might, or might not fit into the a) category.

Only a few loners behave like asses. But they are around. Most of the time, loners in real-life, if they're indeed "poor little nerds", they tend to act either like pricks towards everyone (being extremely obnoxious), or just extremely nice (which they'd never show to anyone outside the game).

When the loners aren't "poor little nerds", then it changes the spectre of the situation.

Truth of the matter is: M&S are comprised of youngsters (any sort; the vast majority are idiots... so was I, admittedly in the 90s), and people in their 20s who can't help but behave like morons for the reasons I explained above.

Conclusion: kids actually have a chance. Give them several years and they'll either outgrow the game, or just mature.
The older people, "our" age, who are indeed morons and slackers... those have absolutely no way of being saved. Not that they're at an age of "no changing possible whatsoever". Stubborness of that high stature only hits at senile ages.
It's that they will only change when something extreme in their life happens. Playing a game and being yelled/insulted by tiny little letters on a monitor won't change them a bit. They're amused.

When someone answers in TB: "You shouldn't talk like that!", the answer is simple: Don't answer.

If they're not morons, they'll filter your insults, since they know you're not aiming at them.
Morons feel insulted, since they know full well you're talking about them, and so they reply, or defend other morons (when in reality they're fending for themselves).

Ignore the morons. They don't move the game. We do.

Ðesolate said...

A short addition to educate M&S.
Educating M&S has nothing to do with ingame issues. I´ve made my main mistake there in the first attemt. It is all about getting into their heads that their behaviour is absolutly destructive.

It eliminates the fun of all the players who want to progress / achieve anything. You have to make clear that´s always why they are the last choosen to come to a raid / arena team / rated bg team / hc farm group. That it is not an eletist behaviour but its all about getting something done.

I succeded with that at a 60% ratio. Adding the point that they are hurting everyone who drags them and convincing them that it is no fun to be with them at da certain degree ist the next step.

The last step is for the last 20% of succeded argument. It is about their own feeling wanting to be "fun ppl". Why beeing anarchistic in a place that requires teamwork. That´s the longest and most exausting part and goes into psycology.

If you succeed over the M&S behaviour they will be very interested in ingame mechanics. They will want more and more information facts and details. At that point it usually gets better and they turn out to be average players.

So why did I stop since I had a 76% success ratio? in the ~28 hours I needed to convince them (14) I messed up over a whole day of my life or the spare time of 7 working days. So I could convince 2 M&S a day when I have a 100% succeeding rate using all my spare time on that?

I´ll rather eliminate M&S from my playtime since I´ve gegistered 1412 M&S when I evaluated my statistic project (detailed numbers here: only clearing out the results not really active posting). So it would take me 706 days to convert all of them at a 100% succeding ratio, what would be 1,93 years. And I am still registering new M&S.

If I think one minute about those numbers I will happily be an eletist.

Anonymous said...

"Elieré, Bozzoman and Aion were fighting on the road while the base was taken just behind them".

Fighting on the road isnt always bad. It depends on the situation and the execution.

Usually the enemy rushes to the flag, to take the base in 1 huge battle. Most times the base-attacking-zergs outnumbers the defenders. So if both forces fight one huge zerg, the attackers will win.

How can fighting on the road change this scenario?
If you manage to attack the enemy zerg, while they are still riding to the flag. You can slow a single enemy and kill him, while he trys to follow the zerg. After you killed him, you slow the next player.

If you are well geared you can take out 3-5 Enemys befor they even reach your flag.

So 1 single player already weakend the attackers far more, than he could if he waited at the flag.

However you could also argument, that the enemy zerg is intelligent and dismounts and attacks you. But the enemys are the same M&S as your randoms.
Even when only 5 players dismount to kill you, means that you just splitted the zerg and you weakended it, too.

Intercepting an enemy is a good tactic. It all depends on the execution and i guess, you called this 3 people, just because you saw them on the minimap.

Pheqbeast said...

"Anonymous" above@roadzerg

What Gevlon is pointing at, is the "cba xD this is fun ^^"-kids who actually run around on the roads, from base to base, without actually assisting the base, but attempting to GANK people in the zerges "4 lulz".

While I agee that intercepting the zerg can be very effective, such as sapping a nearby healer mounting by, then FoK-spamming a group of 4-5 people with mind-numbing, crippling etc.

Yes, you'll most likely die, but you can blow cooldowns to rinse-repeat, or to not be squished.

This is super-effective, and I've managed to slow 10-15 players, vanishing and re-opening the same way. I also usually stick down on paladins, drop down smokebombs suddenly/out of nowhere on focused target, only to watch them die in a mere second, at several holypaladins "????????".

Yes, "fighting" at roads can be very effective, but FIGHTING on roads is not. I believe Gevlon is fully aware of this. I mean, Gevlon plays a shaman, he's most likely dropped an Earthbind Totem on a road before to slow a zerg, or throwing in a frostshock on a mounted player since he's in combat. This is simple things that will cause huge frustraton and slow-down towards enemy faction.

Healer24 said...

Gevlon wrote: "Making the currenly M&S person a better one needs punishing him, excluding him."

I agree with you, but you are only half right. They don't need punishment so much as they need some form of behavior modification. You have found that the "punishment" of exclusion works well for that modification. That doesn't mean that there aren't other valid ways to modify a person's behavior.

Training people is a lot like training dogs. You reward good behavior and punish bad behavior. In that regard I would suggest an addendum to your post tol barad call outs.

Still call out the people who were morons, but also call out a couple people you noticed doing a consistently good job. With the addition of one or two compliments (without stopping telling people when they're bad) you will probably come across as more fair. This might make you more attractive to socials (as you call them) that you're trying to recruit.

Ax said...

@Carson - it's true that people just can't resist chasing a priest. In particular I used to use this in AV when the horde got stuck on the bridge choke point and I nearly ran out of mana I'd just run through the lines and as far in some useless direction as possible. It never ceased to amaze me that half of the people who had us at a standstill would drop what they were doing and chase a single priest that was OOM.

Exploiting the nil attention span of the people playing WoW is a tactic which can be really effective. But hard to execute due to the fact that typically your side has as many idiots as theirs.

Trelocke said...

Why would any social, even the ones that are good and know it, want to join a guild where the GM just "nerdraged" all over raid chat? Who but an asocial thinks that is acceptable behavior?

I know the thought that would be going through my head: If I don't live up to this person's standards, that is what's in store for me. Why do you think these people have suffered through their social, M&S-boosting guild as long as they have? 1) They feel valued. 2) They don't have to suffer being the target of nerdrage.

Also, tying in with your PS, you fail to understand (you seem to know but you don't seem to understand) that many people, especially socials, don't think that being an M&S is a choice. So in many cases the very ones you are trying to recruit would see you as the kind of person that likes to poke retarded kids with a stick. I don't know anyone that would like to hang out with such a person.

I think you have an extremely unique guild, Gevlon. I also think you haven't even come close to tapping its potential. Socials like the ones you want to recruit see their choices as: a) Stay in their friendly social guild boosting their friends where they are praised and respected or b) join a raiding guild where they have to be the "new guy", deal with being yelled at every time they make a mistake and fight their way up the ladder of success...and that's if they can make the time commitments. Your guild would be perfect for these M&S-boosting socials but they would never know it since in their minds you've acted no differently than the GM of any one of the numerous other guilds they've chosen not to join.

So if your goal is to actually recruit the social players that are good, I think you're going about it the wrong way. Not that the opposite extreme of "pretty, pretty please if you do it this way next time it would help us win" is any better. But if you really are trying to recruit these "good" socials, why not just recruit?

"Are you tired of suffering having to play with the likes of arthasdklol and pwnzu who enjoy fighting in the road and generally fail to usefully contribute to their groups? Come check out The PuG where you'll never have to again as long as you choose. But read our rules first because we mean them."

With something like that you've pointed out the retards without actually calling them retards, you've set your guild up as a safe haven from said retards, and you've done so without being unattractive to socials. You have an on-win macro, why not an on-lose macro? You just open it up, type in several of the offending players' names and you're ready to start grabbing the players you're targeting. You can educate them later on the philosophies of dealing with the M&S once they've seen first hand how it can be. Showing them there is an alternative seems to me to be much more valuable use of your time.

Michael said...

Hi Gevlon,

I'm continually confused by why you do these things. Why do you care about random other people and whether they're getting what they deserve?

You post about stupid people with horrible grammar doing foolish things, and I'm always amazed that such people are actually out there in the game. I certainly never encounter them!

But then, I rarely encounter random players at all. I'm in a decent guild, and almost all the time I'm running dungeons or doing pvp I'm in a guild dominated group. I turn off general and trade and chat just with my friends, all of whom are fairly strong players. Nobody is expected to simply hand over services or time to each other, nor does anyone feel beholden to the rest of us. Pretty much the only time I'm aware of there being more than just the few dozen of us in the game is from buying and selling on the AH. And I'm perfectly happy with that.

I'm essentially playing as an asocial gamer. I stick with my small group and don't care about community or the rest of the game world.

Why do you continually throw yourself in with the horrible players, as if to make them better, or help the mediocre people realize they don't need to bother with the terrible players? Do you feel that you owe it them to teach them better? Do you feel like you can't ignore the injustice of people getting what they do not merit?

Why not stop trying to play the way that is right or just, and instead play the way that'll make you happy? I think you'd be happier if you never had to encounter the M&S.

rashnu said...


If i can solo keep you as a healer on the road then my team has advantage. 1 dps less during assault doesnt make a difference, 1 healer less make a huge difference.

Anonymous said...

People are used to nerdrage. It mostly comes from the people you're trying to avoid. I don't get it.

Anonymous said...

Uh...what's wrong with meleeing hunter pets? They die fast, and lock out a bunch of the hunter's abilities.

Wilson said...

As someone who likes playing with friends and yet still managed to go 8/12 heroic ICC, I suppose I am part of the target audience. However, a GM nerdraging for two minutes before TB was over would move that guild the the absolute bottom of my list of possibilities if I looking for a new home. It would put it even lower than guilds that brag about their guild achievement points in trade, or consider it acceptable for people to show up for raids with empty gem sockets.

That said, I realize that WoW is filled with all sorts of different people with different priorities, and I'm sure this will appeal to some of them. You are welcome to these people - I wouldn't want them in my guild.

Energybomb said...

Okey, because 2-3 people have already written "poor M&S, they are mostly kids! Kids have a chance!"

Now, I am NOT saying that not one of them is a kid, I am saying that the "M&S" kid is really likely to grow up as...well, an M&S.

I started WoW when I was 12, I am 17 now. OBVIOUSLY I was NOT the best player around. I still have my first player, a 40 level rogue. He is in full blue gear, even if it means intellect bracers.

I also don't have a single dungeon gear and you know why? Because I never did any! When I started, 13 years old still, I DID knew I wasn't gonna be good. Kids aren't morons, they are young (at least, not all). Young people can't reach the levels of older people but they mostly KNOW their limits.

I knew I couldn't be a shiny-stuffed raider, so throughout my early years I quested and did (when introduced) dailies. The end.Maybe I grouped for the odd group quest, but I never did dungeons or anything else where I would be crushial (I did bg's though. Yes, I didn't really pull the team, but I wasn't a real weight either).

The tl;dr of this is:

Kids aren't morons. Morons are morons. Kids are not as capable, but they mostly know that. There are moronic kids and they can't be differenciated from the adult morons. That is not the majority of kids.

Phelps said...

The people who are really impacted by the M&S being called out are not the individuals being called out. The people who are helped the most are the ones who fight on the roads sometimes, who won't in the next battle because they don't want to be the one called out the next time.

Anonymous said...

While what you're saying is psychologically effective over a long period of time, namecalling in and of itself can bring negative attention towards you in regards to the people that you would have eventually join you guild. Sure they won't play with Arthasdklol anymore after a lot of exposure to them after the fact, because I, myself, have gotten tired of in-game "friends" who make us spend 4 hours in stonecore because they dont understand the meaning of "if something is happening under you, move away", however this brings a lot of negative attenion towards you and your cause, and while you may not care for the negative attention as you have previously stated these non M&S will eventually do 1 of 2 things: 1) Go to a serious progression guild because this is where we find a handful of good players with about 150 14 year olds who while may not stand in fire, nitpick about every little thing and complain and namecall which will ultimately make the good player go back and potentially boost other Arthasdklol players because they don't have the elitist attitude. 2) After much resentment they will look for players like themselves who don't use weak tactics such as name calling to better the raid, but most likely go back to boosting arthasdklol in his along time in wow because arthasdklol 90% of the time is very persistant. This is the player trapped in a social guild, but is good, but lacks the elitist attitude, your strategy is perfect for elitists, and when i say elitists i dont mean people who are good at the game and have no life but simply people who are too attention-seeking to not make fun of others, namecall and all that, which although it is one of your "tactics", you yourself have said that namecalling is ineffective, the solution i think to this would be individually seeking those players and talking to them on an individual basis, maybe explain your motives, otherwise to a good amount of the population youre gonna seem like another mindless elitist who has nothing better to do than sit infront of a computer and namecall other people. Namecalling may not be the most efficient strategy to what youre trying to achieve if anything its blurring the line between the M&S and the non M&S.

Ðesolate said...

@Energybomb: M&S are stupid kids is the same as saying succesful raiders must be unemployed.

It is some sort of ingame-fascism (no don´t want to take out the hitler card since phew that´s overused and uncompareable).

The collective identity of the "viewers" (call them average joe) looks up and sees Dawnlight with full epics and hardmode items. Average Joe can not understand that someone uses his 2-4 hours a day playtime just to raid, so dawnlight is some unemployed eletist that has enough time to raid all day and night (since average joe needs 6-8 hours to do 1-2 Bosses)

If he looks at Arthaslol he sees immature behaviour. Simply he thinks no adult person would act like this, so all of theese M&S must be kids. Since usually the kid-title used to target out any immature player as I remember my ultima online days right. It was a kind of insult and not literally.

@Michael: I set up some numbers of M&S (yes the really stupid ones) and published them as mentioned in a comment above. I can proove every single M&S registered one by one, would take some time to sort all the chatlogs but well...

I want to quote a personal friend of mine who quitted in BC after clearing SWP: "It is an amazing and almost perfect game if you would get rid of all the people in there."

Dink said...

I used to rage. It isn't worth it given the number of bots and randomness of getting people that have no clue how to play. I simply stealth, mock the ragers for entertainment, and ambush when I can win the fight.

I can get my web surfing done while I get my 1 BG win out of 3 played.

Too many bots to take WoW PvP seriously.

Anonymous said...

The bulleted list in this post provides three hypothetical ways in which others would find The PuG more desirable than their current guild.

As examples of how Gevlon thinks other people think and behave, the three points are instructive. They're also weird and, in my experience, wrong.

Gevlon, have you asked many people in your guild how they first found out about The PuG and why they decided to join? I think a little data would be useful as a validation test for your views. If you're right, good for you; if not, it provides material for discussion as well as insights on how to improve your recruiting.

Sthenno said...

"Many people whispered me, telling that what I do is counter-productive. While they agree that the morons are morons, they believe that calling them one does not make them perform better."

Have you considered the possibility that these people, being social as they are, are trying to spare your feelings or manipulate you? I would tend to think it is quite probable that the majority of them do not "agree that the morons are morons." Rather, they think you are a moron, and they just want you to shut up, but not knowing you they guess that their best odds are playing to your ego and telling you you are right rather than being confrontational.

My experience is that people who publicly call out the failings of others are usually people who expect to be carried by others. Obviously that is just an average, and I don't doubt that you are good at what you are doing. But when you yell things in /rw you are just a random person to the majority of people out there, and I know that if someone was behaving like that around me I would not consider letting them in *my* guild, let alone joining theirs.