Greedy Goblin

Wednesday, September 15, 2010

One lock less

On Monday, another team killed the Lich King. I wasn't there, I received just this screenshot:
At first I would mentions that, despite several naysayers told otherwise, people were capable of forming raids without me. I understand that it's hard to imagine to a social that people can act without some authority figure yelling them on the vent, but the people in the guild can. We are pretty well without any organized leadership.

But there is something more interesting here. Just after the kill, Inuyisha has left the guild. There were problems with him, once he was removed from the raid for spamming "funny" macros and got /ignored by the raid leader for whisper-spamming to beg himself back to the raid. Next day he was given another chance and he performed well on LK.

He whispered me the day after his departure, explaining that he imagine a guild "group of friends playing together" and in this guild people are rather "a union of players raiding together". His current guild has 345 members (I assume many of these are alts) and still less progressed than ours, so he really traded down, to a friendly social guild.

Many people expressed their anger over his leaving, after all we gave them KS title and that's how he thank for it?! They are completely wrong. No one gave him KS title, he gained it himself. He wasn't carried (if he was, he shouldn't be invited at the first place). He took nothing with him that he did not own. He contributed while he was here, we have no reason to hate him.

He made up his mind, and placed "friendly" atmosphere above progression. It's his call and his only. If he changes his mind and recognizes that the "friendship" that social guilds give is empty and consists only automated spam of "gz" and "lol", he can come back. He made the impression of a young person who seeks his place. He'll find it, one way or another.

I'd like to emphasize with this post that one's freedom here applies to leaving too. Of course no guild can stop you from /gquit, but most will hate you if you do, kick you from trade pugs, spam /trade that you were a ninja and so on. Not this one. If you keep the rules while you are here, you are free to go anytime without consequences (besides not being here), and you can come back if you find that the grass is no greener on the other side.

Who will leave? Those who can't stand that they can't socialize on guild chat. It's strange that we have a living /casual channel, but still, such people want to use the guild chat. I assume they want to reach their "group of friends" who don't exist at the first place. These people has no place here, and they don't enjoy being here. Maybe if they maturate a bit, or get enough of the constant spam of the "freindly sociall guld", they will value the civilized atmosphere.

The other group who will leave are the HC raiders. A fix-roster, high-attendance guild with voice communication will always progress better than we do. If someone is online a lot, he is better off there. These people can stay here for some time, until they gear up and get their achievements. They can come back if their RL schedule change and no longer allows high-attendance raiding.

Today's moron is special. The lesser morons have to say something to reveal their moronic self. But Shaell found this specimen who needs no mundane words to tell the world what she made of:
If you see morons in WoW, don't hesitate to send them to me!


Squishalot said...

"Of course no guild can stop you from /gquit, but most will hate you if you do, kick you from trade pugs, spam /trade that you were a ninja and so on. Not this one."

"Many people expressed their anger over his leaving, after all we gave them KS title and that's how he thank for it?!"

No guild is greater than its members. You can argue that as guild leader, you won't hold it against Inuyisha. But that won't stop other members in the guild from being hateful and taking retributive action against him.

Glyph, the Architect said...

Leaving to join a social guild? Sounds about right for someone named Inuyisha. I guess the special characters were all taken, so they had to misspell it.

Squishalot said...

@ Glyph - it's an EU server. It's not surprising to find certain words/names misspelt.

Gevlon said...

@Squishalot: yes it does as they can't do it openly. So their pitiful revenge is limited to hateful whispers. Or maybe they don't invite him to weekly Naxx. Terrible.

chewy said...

Many people expressed their anger over his leaving..

Reading this rather surprised me because it suggests that some people in your guild don't understand the principle of what you're trying to do.

Why be angry with him ? It makes no difference at all.

Quicksilver said...

Its funny how all the Agamaggan retards are ending up in your guild and soon in your posts as main examples...

I remember pugging with this guy as well as some others you mentioned in your moron posts.

It makes me realize I really don't miss Agamaggan.

Too bad you chose such a poor server as grounds for your guild. I still believe a much larger realm would have been beneficial for your guild.

Anonymous said...

Players leave...the ks title is the culmination of an expansion for some,light of dawn is mine. Heroic halion is the equivalent to os3d in the days not so long ago. But really a lot of guys jump from guild to guild. Hating him for leaving won't lose him sleep,trolling him won't much matter either. Fact is something aside from progression caused him to leave albeit what or who most won't say unless they are very,very pissed about it. A lot of players leave guilds and never use their actual reasons.

Grim said...

"If he changes his mind and recognizes that the "friendship" that social guilds give is empty and consists only automated spam of "gz" and "lol""

It seems that Gevlon hates social guilds with a passion. But not all of them are so disfunctional. I am in a generally social guild with progress in Heroic ICC of 10/12 on 25m and 12/12 on 10m.

How do we do that with around 250 active accounts roflcoptering all over the gchat?

Its because we have a more or less serious 25man group and several 10man groups. However, their rosters change all the time, most have attendance problems (to the point where 10+ people have gotten their 25m Kingslayer achievements by getting picked up at the last moment because the 25m raidgroup came up short during summer).

The thing that saves us is the huge playerbase here for social reasons - there are always skilled players who are not currently in a proper raidgroup, but just hanging around with "friends". Or raiders with ICC-geared alts who will gladly boost a guild pug just for the heck of it.

If they were all asocials, they would do exactly what Inuyisha did - leave as soon as they got their Kingslayer, because they don't need anything else from the guild. And thus for those who are left, it would be harder to get their achievements because of fewer skilled players being available.

Ticklez said...

@ Squishalot

You are right, nothing stops us from whispering to him and saying bad things. But why would we do that? That is exactly those things i wanted to avoid when i migrated to Agamaggan and joined The Pug. I dont do that beacause i dont care that he left, i really dont. He did his part in that raid and owes us nothing.
I'ts not like we carried him to be a KS.
In The Pug you can gquit without the drama, and maybe join again later, how great is that?

Anonymous said...

"Or maybe they don't invite him to weekly Naxx. Terrible."

Or maybe he won't be invited to fill your raid from the Trade channel, as it happens quite often. I don't know. But your said it yourself: many people expressed their anger over his leaving. So, the "guild package" is nothing more than a different set of social rules, where expressiong your feelings/emotions is rude.

Me said...

I don't view this as down grading. He accomplished what he wanted, he progressed, and left to do other things. He put himself first. pretty goblinish actually.

Not sure why so many in WoW get so hurt over gquit. It's a decision based on their needs and not a personal attack. I notice this happens a lot more in kind without age restrictions.

Wilson said...

"no guild can stop you from /gquit, but most will hate you if you do"

Including yours, apparently. While you may not be calling him a ninja in /trade, your condescension towards his new guild is equally gratuitous. And if indeed "many people were angered" because someone chose not to raid with them anymore, then they need to grow up. It's all just further evidence that the long often-repeated list of rules has failed to produce the "asocial paradise" you anticipated.

Tegoelf said...

"pewpewlol" on the sparkle pony... That is the one nice thing about being on an RP server. if nothing else that name could be reported on an RP server for not being "RP" and you wouldn't have to see it, though on the other hand at least there the person is well identified as being a moron before you even have to interact with them. One other note, Gelvon has a point, anyone in the guild actively griefing him in public spaces runs the real risk that they will be seen by a pier in the guild and reported, so most wont. The ones who do are showing a tendency that is probably unwanted in the guild as it is and are shortening their stay there.


Anonymous said...


So, your point is that, since good players can put up with roflcoptering trash and still succeed, having those around is good? Also, that Icc Normal is the definitive End Game? And also that people (that will keep playing even!) will leave as soon as the current content is done, and then try to find another equally progressed guild?

From my experience, guilds with frequent social interactions will only work if those involved are actually friends, and not just randoms. That, however, is exceedingly rare, and at most some niches are formed where people play together and ignore each other, with the added cloud of "frendly helpful ppl".

In another game I were in a kinda HM social guild (or it's equivalent there). We had the guild's core as a real friends group - about 10 people. People would gradually merge into that group, as long as they were not annoying or noobish. Eventually we gave up the game, but we still played together a bunch of other games. We Went to WoW, and didn't care to make a guild there, but still kept playing together via a private channel and Ventrillo server. However, since we weren't playing with random people, it hardly falls into your social helping

Frostys said...

Pewpewlol is actaully 11\12 in ICC 10 man since april... Wich put him ahead of many of your non M&S guildy in term of progression.

Shannon Fowler said...

What's someone with a name like Inuyisha doing in your guild anyway? His name is a misspelling of an anime best described as 'Dragonball Z for Girls' (presumably, 'Inuyasha' was taken).

This person screams 'social waste of space'.

Grim said...

In short my point is this:

Social guilds will have (some) useful people who do not need anything from the guild (apart from socializing).

To elaborate a bit:

ICC 10 normal is not the definitive endgame, but when anyone in the Pug reaches his own personal endgame, why would he hang around until the next expansion?
In a social guild people keep announcing that they will now leave due to having reached their goals or game taking too much time or whatever and they return on a new or recovered char a couple of months later because they just missed the guild.

Now I'm not saying that those people make very much sense, or that its somehow bad to leave a guild once its of no more practical use to you. What i'm saying is - having such people in your guild can be profitable.

I don't want to live in a perfect world where everyone is smart and thinks rationally. I want to live in a world where I'm smarter than everyone else.

Derrek said...

"It seems that Gevlon hates social guilds with a passion."

No, he doesn't hate them. A goblin is very cautious and calculated in the management of emotions (especially negative ones). What you justifiably hate you must destroy! My guess is that he simply ignores them, while also criticizing and condemning them.

Anonymous said...

Pewpewlol is an awful name. Personally, if I was going enforce name rules in a guild I would not allow your Kingslayer "Ticklez" either.

The anime references are harder to root out. Well, in the broad sense, outside character references. In my Ally days, we had a Draenei paladin named Squidward apply to our guild that had strict RP server name rules. Our GL did not recognize the Spongebob Squarepants reference (a couple of the Officers did.. we asked him to name change, he declined). No one can spot all of them (Google comes close!).

Anonymous said...

Because it's so hard to run a 10 man raid of pugs...

Inuyisha said...

Hi guys, its me, inuyisha, first, Glotan, i'd like to thank you for the post, i think it clears the air a bit about what happened.
I left the guild because i simply didn't like the atmosphere, and because of the nature of the guild, i don't think anyone can hold it against me that i left, this is a no forced attendance raid, that at least from what i understand , tries to be as little constraining as possible, im surprised people got angry at me, since nobody actually tried to be friends or talk to me while i was in the guild, except some usual barks or shouts to move to /casual.
Also, about my name, i was 11 when i opened the account, Was into anime at the time, if you're wondering, and inuyasha was taken.

Anonymous said...

Actually, blizzard has naming rules for NON rp servers too! that specifically ban the use of "leetspeak" (check the terms of service) "Consist of language existent only in online communication (i.e. Roflcopter, xxnewbxx, Roxxoryou)"

just open a support ticket, and their name will be changed in a day or two.

Grim said...

...about as cautious and calculated as Icehowl.

Gevlon constantly rips on socials and social guilds. Its no longer mere criticism when pretty much every point that can be made, he already has ages ago. He is mostly at least partially right, but at this point I would be inclined to call it bullying if it wasn't more like preaching to the choir.

Taemojitsu said...
Relevant or not? For someone with almost no experience with either guilds or raiding, hard to say! But chronology of development suggests that it might be a coincidence, and not trying to make an argumentative statement. ._.

Original without subs, this is a terrible comment

Squishalot said...

@ Gevlon: "@Squishalot: yes it does as they can't do it openly. So their pitiful revenge is limited to hateful whispers. Or maybe they don't invite him to weekly Naxx. Terrible."

Well, are there any rules against spewing hate in /trade? How about not inviting particular people to raids?

Not that I see.

@ Ticklez - again, like Gevlon, just because you have nothing against Inuyisha doesn't mean that others in the guild won't. Which is my point to Gevlon - it's nice as a guild principle, but he can't say that 'the guild' won't hate /gquit'ers, because 'ghe guild' is more than just the one or two members who follow its core principles. The evidence is in the fact that 'many people expressed their anger over his leaving'.

Anonymous said...

It is odd how some people react, for example "he had anime-based name, why did you invite him at all!" if we get so "strict" with names soon any possible names could be crossed out as "reference" to something, the only rule I saw was "no leet speak in name" not "no references to popculture in name". I find it as a bit of vengeance, trying to find bad sides of the guy because he left, he's "dreaded social".

Guys, the guild is the "PUG", the experiment was to try raiding with "PUG rules", PUGs might hate you if you leave midway and screw the raid, but everyone leaves after the raid is completed, and will they meet again in the next raid? Nothing really suggests that unless people meet by accident or put each other on the friend list and make efforts to meet together again. "PUG" ideal condition is "you stay until the end of the raid", not "you stay forever".

If someone enjoys the guild with "hi / bye / gz" spam, silly jokes and RL stuff on the gchat because it's "cool" among teens, then just let him go. Personally I'm very tired of "hi / bye / gz / silly jokes / hey I watched this cool movie today" stuff so if I were on Agamaggan (unfortunately I don't enjoy PvP servers), I would probably bless the silence and no-nonsense on the guild chat but if someone has totally opposite tastes, he just need to find something for himself instead of you trying to forcibly change him.

P.S. Gevlon, thank you for your blog and philosophy, today I quit my "casual raiding guild" for all the mechanisms of M&S guilds you bared before my eyes.
- Guild was 11/12 normal in ICC 10 for 3 months with no progress, no Halion kills either
- mistakes made were called "we had bad luck lol"
- low dps people, even those who had 264 level items and still did 1/3 dps of the top guy were blaming their lack of gear, lack of BiS
- when I tried to point out issues I was called to "be nice, helpful, loyal, patient, give us more time to solve problems", after 3 months my patience is over
- they openly told me the underperformers won't be kicked because "we won't exclude anyone"

In the meanwhile I joined some raiding community on my alt and there we did Kingslayer + 11/12 Icc10 heroic + Glory of the Icecrown Raider 10 without being "elitist no life hardcore jerks" and then I realized what a waste of time the "social casual guild" is, besiacally it's a "boost M&S squad" where better players are expected to make up for "unlucky" M&S and carry them because "we're friendly helpful guild".