Tuesday, September 7, 2010

The PuG rules

The rules are moved to this page.

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I don't like non-English moron pics but this one is excellent, and also fit the rules above (by Jonas):
Translation: "No gz? I leveled up, omg how asocial are you?"

55 comments:

kiki said...

"Yeah" is kiddie speak? :O

Gevlon said...

"yes" is the proper form. Strangely enough "yeah" is even longer than "yes", proving it's nothing but pointless sillyness.

Squishalot said...

How are 'Onemanzoo', 'Prettyseals' or 'Loozerr' roleplaying names? Just out of curiosity.

Zazkadin said...

Re: moron of the day: OK so I agree that congratulations for every level up are not required, as there is no achievement involved, but just the passing of time.
But I discovered yesterday that a minimum level of social behavior is - for me at least - required. I entered a random daily hc yesterday. I greeted my fellow players with a "hello" and only got a deafening silence in reply. After the final boss was defeated one of the players managed to produce "ty bb" and that was all the human interaction that was exchanged. The bot-players in Starcraft II have a warmer communication style than that!

I play this game, because I like to play coop with real people. Maybe I do not want to know how hot they think Megan Fox is, but maybe I prefer that over knowing nothing...

Like the moron of the day, I have considered dropping out of this party for their lack of warmth. But then, I wanted to have my forst badges doon quick...

Baberth said...

To be a pedant, 'yeah' isn't kiddie speak, and doesn't have *exactly* the same meaning as 'yes'.
It can be taken the same - a positive affirmation. But to native English speakers [and those with a high level of fluency], there are very valid places for its uses, and will convey more meaning.
'Yes' is quite a formal word; 'yeah' is not.

It's had its place in the English language for longer than the bastardisations that came about from text and leet speak.
It also has had an entry in the dictionary for quite a long time...

Riptor said...

Yeah is used as the slang form of Yes since the early 20th Century. I don't think an expression that has been around this long, made it into countless Texts and Lyrics of 20th Century Rock and Pop Culture should be classified as "Kiddie Speak".

Anonymous said...

Yeah is a word. Can be used as: agreement (as yes, aye), joy (as hurrah, hurray), It is noted in my dictionary as being related to the existing english terms yes and yea. Most likely began to be used around 1900-1905.

Jana said...

"yeah" is a perfectly valid English word, a synonym of "yes". Just like "aye", "yup", "yep", "yea".

The word is older than Internet and has nothing to do with kiddy/l33t-speak.

It is not in the same category as "rofl" and "lol".

Gevlon said...

I'm not questioning that "yeah" is a word. However "nigger" and "fuck" are words too, yet we don't use them. "yeah" have strong emotional meaning, it's almost equal to "lol, yes". Example:
- Do you want to come ICC25?
- Hell yeah! - he not only answered, he expressed how happy he is for invited. The problem with this extra information is that I DON'T CARE!

"Prettyseals" is roleplaying like "swiftfoot" or "grimtotem".

"onemanzzo" has no meaning at all (that I'm aware of. Maybe it means something in french or portugese but since most people don't understand it, no one is harmed)

"Loozerr" is a problematic issue. When I invited him the meaning did not hit me (because the natural pronunciation for me is lo-zeRR and not lO-ser). Later he proved to be not M&S, so could stay. It's kind of amnesty for him. If I had recognize the meaning, he would not be invited. Now it would be weird to say "your name was OK for a month, but now it's not, change it".

ardoRic said...

Silly question:

aren't raid leaders free to chose how to distribute loot in their own raids? Couldn't an emerging raid leader come up with different loot rules?

I agree with maintaining the loot rules the raid started with, but am not convinced forcing all high-end raids to be gold based is necessary.

Anonymous said...

I rarely comment here, but I have to say that I though I was pretty good at avoiding unsuitable kiddie speak words when the situation demands a more mature approach. However I would not have once in a million years though that anybody would consider yeah to go to that category. I simply cannot find any direct negative connotations like you are describing. It can be used in a context that would be unsuitable, but so can many other words that you would otherwise find acceptable.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, I agree. The term is used in a large variety of situations, most of which are in no way indicative of 'kiddie speak'.

Jana said...

@Gevlon
Of course, both "Hell, yeah!" and "Zomfg, yes!" have "positive" emotional meaning.
However, strong emotional meaning in usage of pure "yeah" is very questionable as it is commonly used as nothing more than formal confirmative aswer.

Anonymous said...

I am sorry gevlon, but I, like many in here as it seems, completely dissagree with branding "yeah" as kiddie speak.

Rofl, lmao, even lol(although I use it rarely when I see fit) are abberations, "yeah" is in the culture since...ever.

Yeah is not only to convey emotions, it is simply another "yes". Once it was slang. This has long since to pass. Today "yeah" is as much of a word as "yes", "no" or "goblin" and "greedy".

As for the arguement that it conveys emotions. As I said earlier, its just one meaning of it. But even if it was the only meaning, it still shouldn't be banned.

Emotions happen. We are ape-programmed to convey them to others as a meaning to have a social structure. I know, and fully understand, that you don't like that because it causes social behaviour. But emotions are many times useful to express. The words "happy", "sad", "painful" have as a single purpose to convey emotions. They are not banned because they are useful. "Hell yeah" is in the same category.

Wildhorn said...

@ardoRic: I doubt anybody would go to a non-gdkp raid anyway. People want to be paid for their time.

About the "yeah". There is 2 kind of yeah. The emotionnal one style "Rollocoster? Yeah!" and the unsure one. "Yeah, I could do that I guess".

And for me, there is also it is more or less the direct translation of "Ouais" or "Ouin", which is a folk "Yes" in Quebecois.

ygg said...

@Zazkadin:

when you entered the run you started an experience full of human interaction: the team play of your companions! Casual chat is not the only form of human interaction - no bot can play as well in a team (or by itself) as a human can. True, no bot can chat as "well" either, but don't we all play the game for the specific purpose of -- playing it?

Anonymous said...

Onemanzoo is "one man zoo". Some sort of pun relating to druids.

Baberth said...

quick aside: Onemanzoo... it's English. One Man Zoo. Potentially roleplayish, but questionable.

Back to "yeah". Yes, "yeah" does convey extra information. But no, it is not the equivalent of "lol, yes!"
Depending on context, it can convey a more emphatic 'yes', or it can show a more blasé response - sure, they agree, but they don't care.
Is the nature of the PuG to one of completely soulless people with any sign of emotion banned?
"Yeah" is part of non-offensive naturally spoken English.

The fact that you seem to find the extra information offensive just seemed odd.

Ephemeron said...

So "yeah" is pointless sillyness, but "G G G" is proper communication?

Maladroite said...

Gevlon, "yeah" is not kiddie-speak. It has etymological roots to the Old English "ġēa" and has many variants in other European languages such as German/Dutch "ja", Norwegian/Danish/Swedish "ja", Icelandic "já" etc.

Nowadays it has gained a more colloquial meaning than "yes". It has still very valid uses in English and there are sentences where using "yes" instead of "yeah" would be downright weird.

Examples:
"Your dog ate your homework? Yeah, right..." (?yes, right?)

"I raise you twenty"
"- Oh yeah? I double it!"

"Yeah" can be used to convey sarcasm, incredulity, light-heartedness, joy, etc etc, or simply as a colloquial substitute for "yes". It is already quite hard to express complete meaning through text and if colloquial words were to be banned in guild chat that makes it even harder.

TL;DR: Gevlon, "yeah" is not kiddie-speak. Many native English speakers have already said that in the comments, take their word for it.

Gevlon said...

As I said, while "yeah" is not an internet slang, it holds unnecessary emotional load that is unwelcomed in the guild/raid chat.

@Ephemeron: "G G G" is not proper usage. However people make mistakes. That's why we need rules. We are not perfect, I am not perfect either. It doesn't mean we shall not try.

Jana said...

Does this mean that from the case of "yeah" it is implied that all valid English words that can sometimes carry an extra emotional load are banned from /g?

Otherwise I simply do not understand your zeal for banning "yeah".

Breevok said...

"lol, m8, i, u, r, lawl, g2g, cba, rofl, ppl, peeps, ofc, yeah, yo, moar, pwn..."

I'll not enter the 'yeah debate' - however I am interested in 'i' being termed 'kiddie-speak'

Or are you you demanding that capitalisation is required in every sentence as well?

Is perfect punctuation also required? How about a grammar check before hitting enter?

Gevlon said...

@Jana: None of those words are so commonly used as "yeah". If they become a problem, they will be banned.

@Breevok: perfect grammar is impossible to reach. However capitalizing I is not too much to ask

Ulsaki said...

@Gevlon

"Yeah" is a valid word as has been pointed out by others. Your example of "hell yeah" to claim that "yeah" has emotional connotations is also incorrect.

The emotional component of "hell yeah" comes from the context, and the use of "hell" as a linguistic intensifier.

As another example, consider "Fuck yes!". Obviously you would not remotely agree that "yes" is therefore an emotional word. The emotional component again comes from the context - use of an exclamation mark, and "fuck" as an intensifier.

So, in short, you're completely wrong to claim "yeah" is a kiddie word. It's merely an informal synonym for yes, much like "okay", "sure", and suchlike. Whether you ban it from gchat is of course your decision, but if you do, you should at least make sure your reasoning is not faulty.

KhasDylar said...

First: I use 'yeah' almost everytime and almost never 'yes'. I'm not a native English speaker (I'm Hungarian) and wasn't aware of the emotional usage of 'yeah' - to be honest, I don't care about it either: if I want to express my emotions in chat, I will, regardless of 'yeah' or 'yes'.
As far as I see all over the internet and in other media, 'yeah' is almost as common as 'yes'; only in formal cases can we argue about inproper usage of 'yeah'.
Gevlon, remember the Hungarian word 'krumpli'? (for non-Hungarian: it means potato) It was the formal name of potato for many-many year, until mid-1800, and the informal name was 'burgonya' and 'pityóka', used mostly in lower provinces, on the countryside. After that date this has been changed and the two words switched places. If this is okay, why wouldn't be 'yeah' and 'yes' be different? Just because you see in there some emotional things, which is not there for the most of the people?

About naming conventions: I totally agree with that part, I don't like 'Legolasszlolol' and such names. You say, you don't see any special about the name 'onemanzzo'. What about this: 'One man zoo'? :)

Eenheid said...

I'm surprised there are official raid times, and limits on the loot schemes that are allowed, etc. They seem arbitrary solutions, like providing subsidy was an arbitrary solution. I don't understand why mandating these things is better than letting market forces take over, and they seem contrary to the nature of the pug project.

And yeah, I mean yes?, one man zoo is definitely not a 'rp name.'

Anonymous said...

Something I've been wondering about for a while whenever I see the _no alt_ rule, is if multiboxing complies with that rule or not. At first sight no, but for example I play 3 elemental shamans and never split them up: not for pve, not for raids, not for dungeons.

Which means I actually play them as 1 toon. Even more, they are all the same geared and have exactly the same stats. I have successfully ran them up to 9/12 10m HC mode and 8/12 25m hc mode, quite often topping the total damage meter.

So in a way it definitely has an advantage to have *3 copies* of a decent player. On the other hand it's often not possible to follow the *classic* tactics on bosses. But for every fight in ICC so far that has resulted in a slight strategy change that makes it easier in the end for everyone.

Obviously it's the raid leader her/his call to invite me for a fight or not, and if she/he sees the benefit of it.

Question is, does the above violates your rules or not. If no, then I'm definitely considering re rolling to join The Pug.

Anonymous said...

"If I had recognize the meaning, he would not be invited. Now it would be weird to say 'your name was OK for a month, but now it's not, change it'."

Perhaps your discomfort is an ape-subroutine that resulted from the realization that you had failed to properly apply the rules of your guilds. Rather than following the formal rules as written, you have invented a post-hoc justification for doing otherwise.

Campitor said...

"Gevlon, remember the Hungarian word 'krumpli'? (for non-Hungarian: it means potato) It was the formal name of potato for many-many year, until mid-1800, and the informal name was 'burgonya' and 'pityóka', used mostly in lower provinces, on the countryside. After that date this has been changed and the two words switched places."

This is why I love this blog. Where else can you go to find a Hungarian lecturing a fellow Hungarian about potato word usage and how it applies to "yeah"?

Like most of you I don't see how "yeah" is harmful but Gevlon has lectured about using "proper" words. The word "yeah" has been around for a long time but it's still considered slang by language purist. If you were replying to a formal written request, like a job offer, would you use "yes" or "yeah"? "Yes I would like to accept your offer" or "Yeah, I would like to accept your offer"? If the use of the latter vs the former is prefered then you can then reasonably agree that Gevlon is correct on his insistence of using the "proper" form of the word "yes".

ardoRic said...

The PuG already has a multiboxing elemental shaman. Not sure if he goes to raids, though.

1 2 3

Anonymous said...

@semi-last anonymous (the multi-boxxer one).

You are really welcomed. We already have one that is exactly like you, with shammy's.
Heck, we even have a multi-boxer rank.

Jana said...

Ok, after all this discussion I do agree that it is indeed more proper to use word "yes" instead of "yeah" in a PhD dissertation or similar scientific paper.

(Of course, if it's not in linguistics or literature)

This does make "yeah" slightly more M&S-ish than "yes".

Still, if it's quite easy to avoid using "lol" and "rofl", it might be rather difficult for some people not to occasionally use "yeah" in completely emotionless context.

Gevlon said...

And no one will be punished for accidental mistake. I also make mistakes. However one shall always try to better himself.

Andenthal said...

Devlon, I think you may still want to re-evaluate your "1/3 to second bidder" rule. I can think of many more negative things this can cause, than positive.

In that system, all items have to sell for 50% more than they would have other wise (assuming more than 1 bidder) - otherwise there is very little for those not bidding (or are unlucky to bid).

Example:
Assume that Deathbringer's Will usually goes for 10k gold in a "normal" GDKP raid. In your raid where 1/3 of the bid goes to 2nd highest, that same item would need to sell for 15k gold in order for the other 8 non-bidding players in the raid to recieve the same amount of money (5k to 2nd highest, 10k to general pot). Anything less than 15k for that item, and the other 8 non-bidding players get less gold in the pot than they would have in a standard GDKP. That particular item very well may go for that much gold, but I have a feeling not many others in ICC would go for 150% "market vaule".

This gives incentive only to the 2nd highest bidder, and does not give the rest of the raid any benefit (actually less benefit for them). I agree that there is little incentive to *try* to be the 2nd highest bidder every time (your competetor stops bidding and you get the item), but I disagree that this is an overall good thing for the raid.

I honestly do not see how every item will sell for 50% more (when at least 2 are bidding) in this system, over a more standard system. That would have to be the break-point for non-bidders to "break even" in this type of GDKP over a more stanard one.

Anonymous said...

Yo, a kiddie word? That word is older than most kids. Instead of saying kiddie words you should have just said no slang. Don`t know about anyone else but sometimes thats all that comes to mind to acknowledge someone. But all in all most of your rules do make good sense.

Derrek said...

Gevlon, I simply don't understand you with this "yeah is not allowed" part. What's wrong with expressing emotions? Sure, you may not like others do so or to do it yourself, but you don't have the right to deny the others unless you're a communist.

I play this video game to have fun. Losing isn't fun, so I stress myself to be decently successful at it. If this game had been a job, and if and only if acting asocially gave the best results then I wouldn't had expressed my feelings. Well, I think that trying to achieve the best results in a video game is pretty pointless (we're not 24/7 hardcore no-lifers, no pun intended) so there's no need to completely forbid social behaviors.

Anonymous said...

The problem with controlling others is you have to keep enforcing you will every hour, every day.

But your stamina/endurance will eventually wane, and you will outsource the power to those you trust. That's when all dictatorships begin to fall.

And well done surpassing Obama on punishing Americans for not submitting to political correctness.

Oxymustard said...

Yeah is kiddie speak. The people that used it as slang centuries ago were.. *drums* M&S and socials

LOL/LMAO/ROFL/M8 will still be retarded in one hundred years. I hear lol/lmao/rofl being used now as slang when I walk through the town and I live in the Netherlands..

Gevlon said...

@Derrek: what you seem to miss here is that your "need" to express emotions damage the fun of the other people. No one is playing the game to be your unpaid therapist. You must deal with your own emotions and cannot force others to deal with them.

Einheriar said...

Maybe you should invent your own language and force your players to learn it and use it.

That's not so far from what you're doing. You're making up meanings and connotations for a word that you have a personal dislike for, and that seems very "un-goblinish" to me.

Anyway, there's no way an educated english speaker is going to start using "yes" instead of "yeah", so are you going to kick them out for correctly speaking their own language ?

Are you going to give them english lessons, from the height of your middle-school mastery of the language ?

Derrek said...

@Gevlon

Every human being needs to express their own emotions, period. We're based on emotions, we draw our power and energy from emotions, no matter if you know it consciously or unconsciously. I believe that choosing to hide those emotions from others for the sake of "not damaging their fun" is plain silly. It will impair you and you shall never achieve greater power or intellect by restraining yourself like this, unless you're a machine.

You'll find the above in pretty much every psychology book...

Derrek said...

First of all, you're using the word "therapy" which is senseless in the given context. Do you call bettering yourself as a "therapy" to perfection? No, you don't!
Secondly, the psychological definition of normal actually includes expressing emotions. Furthermore, being normal is the best possible way to better yourself (thus to try to reach perfection).

To be as sincere as possible, I'm gonna say that this rule makes me lose my faith in you... How about you change your rule and stop forcing the other players?

P.S: I'm sorry for the double post.

Jack said...

I really wish there was a guild exactly like this in the US.

Or even one somewhat like this.

Andrei said...

I guess the key is really not in if "yeah" is appropriate word or not or if the PUG rules make sense or are any good. It is in the stated guild goals and if there are enough people to associate with these goals to put up with the imposed restrictions and behavioral patters. After all in any successful guild you would have to comply with the rules and you cannot expect to like them all. It is the benefits that guild membership brings that makes you compromise and work for a common goal.

And this is where problems start - the Gevlon's guild goals are way too vague something along the line of having "a better PUG". Here are the goals of Gevlon's "a-social social project" as stated in the original rules post.

1) The behavioral rules of the Ganking project work and perfectly capable to keep M&S out.

This is a goal that Gevlon clearly associates with - he appears to be on a personal vendetta against M&S. The question is how many people would associate with it as well especially on the terms defined by Gevlon. Based on guild turnover and progression Gevlon is having really hard time recruiting fellow M&S haters.

2) There is no need for "job-like" approach for the raiding. It can be perfectly no-obligation and casual.

You don't need to join the PUG to have this. Any trade PUG would accomplish this on any given day. Don't see much incentive here.

3) There is no need for dedicated leaders if the goals are properly set and feedback can be provided by the system and peers

Well not much improvement here either - most PUGs start with some goal in mind and one can assess if this goal is "properly set" relatively easily by looking at the raid leader and raid roster. Given the PUG progression which is typical of a moderately successful PUG that anyone can join by just being selective there is not much in terms of advantage that Gevlon's project provides.

Bottom line: the PUG is 26th ranked guild on "a badly progressed low-middle population PvP server" and is 8/12 ICC25 and 8/12 HM ICC10. Not much allure to accept the rules imposed by the PUG which majority of players will consider superficial at best and a non-sense at worst.

Sir Nicholai said...

I might suggest that the reason the word "Yeah" shouldn't be used is because it's not professional, not because of any loaded emotions, etc.
I can't see any teachers in the prep school I teach at allowing any of the students to answer them with "yeah," it simply doesn't convey the proper respect for the situation.
When I speak with other professionals on business matters I don't use slang or casual language, I address them with the respect and courtesy we all expect.
When I hang out with them after hours we can pal around, but during school hours, professionalism rules.
Gevlon's PUG guild appears to be more about running a professional business raid than a casual fun affair (nothing wrong with that, I love the idea) so enforcing the use of "Yes" rather than "yeah" seems the same as enforcing a dress standard in a professional office.

Taemojitsu said...

There are occasions where names deliberately violate the "common sense" guideline, but they are not players who would apply to this type of guild. Example: many players were forced to rename when servers transfers were offered from EU-Archimonde to EU-Ysondre, and drama led to names being taken by lvl 1 alts. Leading to names such as
Polzielol
Anelitlol
Razwarlol
Molilol
Allasterlol

as shown in the PvP movies Polzielol - The True Story by the player known as Polzie and Clash of the Ovski by the gnome mage Gegon

Anonymous said...

click on any goblin NPC
"Yo!"
"Yeah, what do you want?"

If it's good enough for the game, it should be good enough for you.

Normal people say "yeah" and "yo" in real life.
No normal person says "roflmao" or "brb" in real life.

Besides, "yes that's amusing" and "yeah that's amusing" convey different tones. The former can be slightly sarcastic while the latter is natural.
As a previous poster said, "yeah, right" has no "yes right" counterpart.

"I have tanked Arthas in blues."
"Yeah right"
"Yes right" doesn't even make sense.

I'm sure most of your PuG members would agree that banning words that are used in everyday normal conversation is pretentious.

Andrei said...

@Sir Nicholai
"Gevlon's PUG guild appears to be more about running a professional business raid than a casual fun affair (nothing wrong with that, I love the idea) so enforcing the use of "Yes" rather than "yeah" seems the same as enforcing a dress standard in a professional office".

According to stated the PUG goals:
- There is no need for "job-like" approach for the raiding. It can be perfectly no-obligation and casual.

Squishalot said...

@ Andrei

Sorry this is a lot late, but in the unlikely event that you come back and read this, your reference to the PuG goals is precisely Sir Nicolai's point. The PuG, in its operation, does not result in the achievement of its goals, because the fixed raiding times (if not attendance) and the hefty rule set lends itself to a standard raiding guild, rather than a true PuG guild.

Anonymous said...

I especially like how you intellectual peanuts are busy going "WELL I DISAGREE WITH X/Y/Z GEVLON, I JUST DON'T THINK IT'S RIGHT".

What makes you think he cares? It's his guild, he can run it how he wants. And I guarantee you the only thing your comments are going to cause is laughter, not change.

But whatever. Continue to rage against the dying of the light.

Visalyar said...

Just a little question into the blue. I´d like to adopt the basic concept of your project for a german pve-server. If it goes as planned the start should be in time with cataclysm. As usual (the way i think) it´s necessary to ask for permission before copying / adopting a projects basic concept.
By the way good luck for your further actions, the undergeared project is the most interesting wow-concept i´ve seen at all. Please keep the good work.

Gevlon said...

Anyone is free to use it in any server!

Menhir said...

I've wanted to join this guild for a while, but alas, it is a EU server. Is anyone aware of similar guilds on US servers?

I like all the rules I see here, though it'd probably require some effort to completely eliminate smilies from my typing.

Anonymous said...

Just checking in at the end of this comment thread to see if anyone found or founded a US version of The Pug.

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