Greedy Goblin

Monday, September 6, 2010

You get what you pay for

Last time we lacked healers for 25-man. I came up with a "wonderful" idea to fix it: I offered booster position (therefore 100G/boss) to every able healer. The plan was that some ret palas and cat druids (we have lot of melee) will get healer spec, gear it up for the extra gold.

Of course, like with every government subsidy, it went wrong: next raid 10! healers were present. Simply every living healer logged in. On the other hand, the DPS was in short supply, since with the extra amount of boosters decrease their pot. Another great example that you cannot control the market from above. Every subsidy attempts end up in feeding freeloaders, this time healers whose services were not needed.

Another important result: people end up with such subsidy and welfare-ideas when they run out of real solutions. I did not know how to get enough healers to ICC25, so I came up with something stupid. The lack of DPS shown that others known it's stupid. Unfortunately none of them were brave enough to simply /w me "it's a very bad idea, you'll just get what you pay for: healers. However what you want is a full, balanced raid".

I will never pay for spots again, and let the market sort it out. People with the ability to do the more rare roles have easier way to get into raids. Like we went to 10HM and 13 people were present, 2 tanks, 3 healers, 8 DPS. All healers and tanks got in, and 3/8 of the DPS did not. Simple supply and demand.

The fundamental problem for subsidizing is that you must define a criteria as condition for payment. People will find a way to reach that criteria without being actually useful or more accurately useful enough to outdo the damage you do by taxation to support your subsidy.

If things don't go well, don't make them worse by taxing the people and give their hard earned money (what is in short supply since things don't do well), and give it to someone who is smart enough to abuse your subsidy system.

So next time (Sunday), I offered no gold to no one. Boost raid applies only to raids where the boosters can carry people over content. Since we already done the sure 6/12, the rest was progression. I offered nothing but wipes. 42! people (37 lvl80) were online, but it was pretty hard to fill the raid. We wiped several times, discussing mistakes, adjusting strategies. From "half raid dead in first yellow ooze" we reached to:
So from now on, our #25K/64K position on the 25 progression chart belongs to us and not the /trade pugs our members attended. The pot from just that boss and trash drops was 12K (with 1/3 to second bidder). If you want the next boss, the 10HM progression, the part from the pot, or simply the lol-free chat, join! Just don't forget the rules.
------------------------

The moron was spotted by Ticklez, one of our inviters:
You can't be safe enough on the internet. But I guess not trusting in blogspot.com is a bit weird.

24 comments:

Squishalot said...

"But I guess not trusting in blogspot.com is a bit weird."

I wouldn't put that up to being moronic. blogspot doesn't moderate every single blog and ensure virus-free viewing. It'll pull down blogs that do have such things as and when they get reported, but it's not proactive, certainly.

Same reasoning that any 'page' on Facebook is safe, just because Facebook is 'trustworthy'. I saw a recent link doing the rounds with the topic "Proof that atheism is false." From what I understand (from the people silly enough to click on it), it auto-liked the page as soon as you went there.

It's not in charge of blog content, so why would faith in blogspot give you any faith in a website hosted by blogspot?

Wildhorn said...

About the raid: It was amazing. I never had so much fun in my raid history. Even if we were wiping, I was enjoying it. I was seeing new content that I would never saw being in another guild because I would have been judged on my gears or achievements. I went to PP and we downed him while I never downed a single ICC boss. I went there with my hunter Kebec in PvP epics, a ilvl 200 weapon and 5man blues items, yet I was not the neither under tank DPS nor the last on damage done.

Some people didnt want to come to raid because they were afraid to not have the gears to come. Take this advice: Let Gev decide if your gears are ok or not.

About the moron of the day: I think he do not trust in blogspot.com because he doesnt know it and the amount of numbers after make it look like a unsafe website. But the way he writes and act indeed make him a moron.

Yaggle said...

(in reference to screenshot)
Well about the guy worried that the link to guild rules is a hack site, it's better safe than sorry. You could end up on a blog site like Marcko's. I usually don't trust players with names ending in "inja", though. I think they believe that their name is "fair warning" of future deeds.

Gevlon said...

@squishalot: we get an interface here, we can insert only HTML that the system accept. I cannot insert any kind of code that is not supported by blogspot. They are not just a hosting space, they are content providers.

Squishalot said...

On a side note, from the Armory rosters of the PuG, there are various characters by the names of Onemanzoo, Stabsahlot, Prettyseals, Owlcaholic, Loozerr, and a couple of other questionable names.

How is it that Rofldots is 'moronic', and Loozer isn't? Or any of the others? (And @ Aljabra, who I was arguing this point with before - how is this anything but subjective?)

Squishalot said...

@ Gevlon - that doesn't prevent you from making the entire (or key areas of the) website screen a click-through to another hacking site. It's well within the realms of belief that a blogspot site can become compromised.

No form of moderation is foolproof. Facebook and iTunes are starting to learn that fact.

Bobbins said...

The reason like all 'government subsidies' it did not work is because it wasn't your money you were allocating.
Taxation dilutes the ownership of the contribution and thus is allowed to be spent on silly things.
People on welfare think that money is 'free' and the people taxed believe the government allocates their money wisely. These are both false. If people thought that government could allocated their money best 100% taxation would be possible.

Also you acknowledge the subsidy was poorly thought out and you drawn the conclusion from that however you seem to forget why you applied the subsidy in the first place in that the market only supplies selfish interests as it always will do.

Anonymous said...

By the way, when you said you'll pay 100g each healer, there wasn't any mage/warrior greedy enough to /w you "i can bandage"?

With all these Cata beta frauds,i am pretty sure that guy had already 1-3 emails hacked, 150 fire eternals stolen and 3 characters naked.So, from then he never clicked a link.
Ever.
Again.

Aljabra said...

@Squishalot
With this attitude you can't visit any of the internet sites, can't follow any link, as (it's sad, really) any possible site can be compromised. Even something like google.com.
The right approach will be to maintain proper security on your own system, so you can safely visit anywhere you need. And, naturally, learn about how some places may be safer, than others.

Anonymous said...

@ Squishalot:

Without saying i am agreeing with the "filter on names" concept, Gevlon has said straightforward he has a problem with rofl, lol, lmao, om(f)g, wtf and all the other chat words, countless in fact. He never said that names will follow RP-policy!
"Prettyseals" may be a weird name but it doesn't bring any moronic behaviour in mind.
"Rofldots" is easily being connected to a guy yelling "Rofl Rofl! i dot everything!I killed a DK lol!"

Wildhorn, Squishalot, Dishonored, Owlcaholic are all names fixed by joining words which is strictly forbidden in RP but none of 'em has any slang word in it either. He wants a guild with no morons, not a guild with RPGers.

Jana said...

@Squishalot 06 September, 2010 07:25

It's quite normal even for M&S guilds to send to their frdnlpplgld.guildomatic.com or similar site to read rules/raid schedule etc. first.

And also one has to be quite a conspiracy fan to think that he is gonna be hacked by this ~150 account guild he is trying to join.

Of course there is this ultra slim chance that even blogspot can be compromised, but in this case one has to navigate the Internet in the most safe way: with unplugged network cable and turned off wireless adapter...

Zizi said...

Just FYI: greedygoblin.blogspot.com was indeed identified as a dangerous website by google chrome for a while.

Anonymous said...

I don't think subsidies are usually intended to be permanent unless they're in an area unable to net a profit yet still necessary for national defense.

The core example of a temporary subsidy being a budding market that is unable to compete against foreign competitors, yet would be capable later given time to grow. I think Toyota was an example of this, though I'm not totally sure.

In WoW terms, there isn't too much motivation to create a healing set unless you raid consistently. Dps sets are better for pvp and soloing, tank sets are better for random dungeon queues. Healing is largely boring in 5-mans given how overgeared most content is now, and doesn't transfer to either soloing or pvp well at all. There's not a lot of reason for a healing focus unless you intend to raid consistently, which isn't something your guild structure caters to.

I'm sort of unsure why you think the market is the solution when a failure in the market is what prompted the subsidy in the first place. Healers having an easier time getting into raids hasn't ever been a secret. The other question is why is 10 healers showing up a problem? You obviously can't take 10 healers to a raid, so the market would blunt the abuse. Does your gold bid system support off sets? If someone's goal is to maximize their gold, then they wouldn't bother bidding on healing set items, they'd want to maximize their dps set in order to reach the booster bracket. Focusing on a single dps set also makes them more competitive in an already competitive raid role. Are healer items that could otherwise go into building off-sets getting disenchanted?

Mongarwer said...

Trivia: Murjakinja in Croatian slang is a female policeman :)

Anonymous said...

just get noscript and addblock plus for firefox. sandbox for extra protection and you dont have to worry about hacker sites.

Karim said...

@Squishalot

I believe Gevlon doesnt judge someone by single characteristics alone, I think he is closer to a point system where when someone goes past a certain point he brands him/her M&S

In Rofldots case, Gevlon had a chat with him with obvious signs of M&Sness so it resulted in Rofldots to be rejected.

By the way I made Stabsahlot taking the risk of being rejected by that but I wasnt,I believe it was because of the way I handled my first chat with Glotan in-game.

KhasDylar said...

I think, offering boosters payment for your healers provided the same result what you expected. If you encourage everyone to follow the "goblinish way", why do you wonder if they do? :)
The basic idea was not bad: you could not get enough healers to ICC25 and you know about something, which can drive them to join: gold ("salary"). DPS (read: common workers) did not show up or respecced to healing (read: special, trained workers): they did not show up, 'cause their "salary" was decreased with the boosters gold, and if they respecced, this was because they expected higher "salaries" - both reasons are logical to me.

If I understand the concept of boosting correctly, there are some people (lowbies, who need boosting), who pay taxes and there are the boosters, who get salary for doing an unpleasant job. This is a good concept in way it get's what you expect: more viable geared people, a larger pool of raiders, who possibly can do 25men raids. Well, no, they won't. Common sence tells them, 25 people can do more mistakes then 10 people (less chance on loot) and during 25men raids they have more competition on loot (read: they have to pay much-much more for an upgrade, then in a 10men - even lesser chance for a loot). Yeah, I know, 25men offers much better items then 10men - but is it worth? I don't know exactly how many bosses you kill on a regular boost raid, but let's say you kill 11/12, possibly even the Lich King (epic endboss, good weapon loot, Kingslayer title, achievement, e-peen, etc.). Why would anybody join an almost /trade level ICC25 raid, until they don't have a very huge pile of currency (in this case gold, in some other cases DKP), from where they can ensure they will most probably get upgrades.
In short: until you can't ensure people, they will get some loot, you won't get a healthy balanced 25men raid within your current guild. This is simply because probably the only thing that drives people in The PuG is to amass more gold and better gear with the least effort (the moron- and leetspeak-less raid chat is just a plus). Hardcore guilds are driven by progression, social friendly guilds just "want to have fun" (and probably they kill some bosses meanwhile) - The PuG is not driven by any of these, just as no other pugs are. If they would, you would not see "LFM ICC25 we are going for 6/12 hopefully 8/12, whisper GS+achie".

If you insist to continue this way of raid organisation, you have to think about some way to motivate your DPS too. Let's say, every ICC25 raid counts as a boost raid and the top3-5 DPSers get boosters gold. This way you'll get exactly what you want: progression in a PuG. Why? You pay your healers (read: special workers) to show up and be prepared - this is okay, 'cause otherwise they would not be there; you pay your DPS section (read: common workers) to do their job better, then the other "common workers" do, hereby emerge from the mass and be rewarded for it. Tanks probably don't need to get extra payment, 'cause thay only compete on loot within themselves (not as healers: they sometimes compete ranged DPS), meaning if a tank loot drops, maximum 3-4 people will "roll" on it (imagine the same situation if a "Tiny Abomination in a Jar" would drop on the Professor: it's BiS for several classes, at least 7-8 people want to have it).
Of course, with this method, the pot will be not as big as it would be otherwise (you can't pay your not-so-good common workers), but at least you will probably kill some more bosses, get more and higher level items.

Wildhorn said...

KhasDylar's idea is pretty good I say. Give booster status to the top 2-3 DPSer. But this also might lead to some unwanted behavior, like going all out on DPS and playing like an idiot by not running away of ooze or standing in void zone, etc.

Kiltarion said...

"If someone's goal is to maximize their gold, then they wouldn't bother bidding on healing set items, they'd want to maximize their dps set in order to reach the booster bracket. Focusing on a single dps set also makes them more competitive in an already competitive raid role. Are healer items that could otherwise go into building off-sets getting disenchanted?"

Yep. I'm not sure if it's possible to do something about that without making it exploitable, though.

That said, the single 100g run might have helped, in that people who wouldn't have bothered to get offspec got them. It's mostly a one-time investment, so the new healers could go healing later (even if they prefer dps, better healing than no raid).

@KhasDylar
You get money from the pot, frosts, achis, practice, and even more money from being #2 bidder. Without winning any items, you can easily walk out with ~1k gold. I don't think dps needs more incentives.

Nicolas said...

Love the idea of The PuG, wish I was on EU server to play too! Finally got 4k GS but i refuse to use Vent so denied everytime. Grr!

I'm noticing something in the progression of the PuG... that the original rule set was about NO GS and everyone has a chance to play. Yet the last several Gevlon posts show his increasing 'persnicketyness' over who gets to play in his raids... which is inherently based on his trial and error of members of the PuG. Perfectly natural to expect that, after playing over and over again, a RL wants to progress, not constantly go over the same content and wipe over and over again. Which, in turn, leads to RL's being a lot more picky on who gets the invite... which means looking at things like GS and Enchants, and inspecting all applicants... which leads to the break down of the initial theory over time!

It works in the sense of a 'No nonsense, open raiding core' with no silliness involved, just serious gamers... however the term 'Progression' means just that; each player progresses through the game content, naturally leaving others behind, thereby still creating the dichotomy of necessary exclusion of 'lesser' players. It's akin to an older brother not wanting to hang around with a younger brother... he has 2 more years of experience and, though his sibling's opinion is perfectly valid, he disregards it because of the source and the knowledge that he has already passed such thinking. I'm sure there is some psychological tag for the phenomenom, but as an unlettered American I'm not sure what it would be classified as...

One last thing... Can we stop the bitching about this ROFLDOTS? Gev read the name, thought it was dumb, and denied entry. He will continue to do so based solely on his opinion and the opinion of his trusted lieutenants... Deal with it. Besides, per the remainder of the conversation, the guy PROVED himself to be M&S, so leave it alone!!

(Great blog, Gevlon, its the only one I read every single day. Thanks!)

KhasDylar said...

@Wildhorn: going out insane on DPS just to be in Top2-3 and don't follow regular fight mechanics will result in a wipe, which offers no gold at all. So no, this method does not encourage doing insane DPS - it encourages doing good DPS, meanwhile you do your job also: killing the boss.
If you can go out like crazy and still kill the boss, than congrats, you just abused the system: hurray, you are the lucky winner of one fight and 100g! ;)

@Kiltarion: according to Gevlons post, DPS needs some incentives, 'cause either they don't do their job well and/or they don't show up at all! (or respecc to healing, which is irrelevant in this case: they won't be there as DPS).
To avoid the lack of "common workers", you have to pay them more. Not as good as your "special workers" (read: every healer gets payment, while not every DPS gets it), but still you have to give them something.
By saying "you get this and that and still by just being there, you can get 1k gold" - you just underestimate human laziness (which is a product of the misunderstood goblinish way). You say, you can get more money by being #2 bidder. True, but why the hell would anybody want to be second bidder? If I want an item, I will ensure, that I'll get it - I'm not interested in being #2.
Yeah, I can get 1k gold by just being there and doing 5k DPS in full ilvl264. Is this good? Not for me, 'cause I don't give a shit about 1k gold. What if I can get 3 times more if I'm nr.1 DPS? Yes, that's worth it? Not only because of the money, but even for the "e-peen": everyone will see, I'm the #1 and everyone will see, that I'm the one, who gets more payment, than the rest of my kind (read: "the mud").

Squishalot said...

@ Aljabra: "With this attitude you can't visit any of the internet sites, can't follow any link, as (it's sad, really) any possible site can be compromised. Even something like google.com."

That's correct, to some extent. A news website, for example, owns the content that they produce on the site. They are in full control of what goes on. If you trust the site, you can trust the content. A blog has user-generated content which, while it may be restricted by the server provider, can still be malicious.

Trusting in blogspot won't stop Gevlon from asking you for your user name and password details. You need to trust Gevlon to avoid that.

@ Anonymous1 (06 Sept 09:03): ""Prettyseals" may be a weird name but it doesn't bring any moronic behaviour in mind."

What behaviour does "Loozerr" bring to mind?

@ Jana: "And also one has to be quite a conspiracy fan to think that he is gonna be hacked by this ~150 account guild he is trying to join."

Hackers have plenty of accounts. It's not out of the realm of belief that they would have 150 accounts at their disposal. Ponzi schemes are based on that precise belief - that something big must be legitimate. How many investors did Madoff have?

@ Zizi: "Just FYI: greedygoblin.blogspot.com was indeed identified as a dangerous website by google chrome for a while."

Thank you for pointing that out. Perhaps the so-called 'moron' actually visited the site and came across a 'dangerous website' tag by their browser or anti-virus program. It's not out of the realm of belief.

@ Karim: "In Rofldots case, Gevlon had a chat with him with obvious signs of M&Sness so it resulted in Rofldots to be rejected."

Not really - Gevlon rejected him before Rofldots had actually said anything M&S-ish.

Sorry for dragging your name out, but I just question the point of a subjective rule on 'moronic' names. I fully appreciate Gevlon's Tuesday follow-up blog on this topic, but I think that it's not 'fair' to set such a subjective rule. At what point does 'RP' cross over into something distasteful? If it was really about a person's attitude, then why have a (redundant) naming rule in the first place?

@ Nicolas: "Can we stop the bitching about this ROFLDOTS? Gev read the name, thought it was dumb, and denied entry. He will continue to do so based solely on his opinion and the opinion of his trusted lieutenants."

Then it's not an objective rule that can be applied, and therefore, Gevlon's breaching the guild rules. But that's not the case, therefore, the application of the naming rule can still be criticised.

Aljabra said...

@Squishalot
"Trusting in blogspot won't stop Gevlon from asking you for your user name and password details. You need to trust Gevlon to avoid that."

Sure it won't stop him from asking.
But what's that will force me to answer?
Only thing you need to protect yourself from this kind of "threat" is some common sence, though that moron from the post obviously don't have any.

Squishalot said...

@ Aljabra:

Unless you know what blogspot will limit (which any person who doesn't use blogspot won't know), you have no idea what content a blog is capable of uploading, including malicious scripts that run on loading.

It's not moronic. Unknowledgeable, perhaps, but suitably cautious, given their lack of knowledge. That, I believe, is more common sense than blindly trusting in a website to do the right thing.