Greedy Goblin

Friday, May 15, 2009

The best investment

Yesterday I had my first raid with my new guild. It was nothing like the raids before.
  • No one damaged below the tank
  • No one healed below the ret pala or shadow priest
  • No one went AFK without notice
  • No one "DC-ed"
  • Everyone knew the tactics (or adapted fast enough)
  • No one slacked using consumables
  • No one was dancing in the fire (some, including me was slow to run out and got 1-2 ticks but there was no "healing over 20 secs of fire, while he does his standard rotation"
  • Shamans put totems, paladins gave proper buffs, every other buffs were reapplied
  • When spell AoE was expected, proper resistance totem/aura was applied
In a sentence: it was like the topguild-movies I watched before the raids to prepare.
It was a fresh run, we started on Leviatan. To not mess up anything, I took a siege engine gunner post. It seemed to be a peaceful location... until Leviatan appeared:

Then came XT with perfect healing. Note to self: I must make a barkskin+healthstone keybind. Ulduar is not Naxx.

Came Kologarn, our first wipe, the fastest runin-rebuff I've ever seen and a quick kill (with me dead 2 secs before the boss). Surprisingly the LBx3 is not dead. Granted, I've innervated myself for the first time in WotLK, but still, I could keep it up on the tank while throwing WG, rejuv and LB on the raid.

The crazy cat lady was also two-shotted.

The Freya zone was so great, that on the last 10 secs, when the kill was sure, I've Alt-Z-d, just rolled LB-rejuv-WG on the tank and watched:

Mimiron 3 shotted, too many people died in P2. And I had to repair. Note: there is a repair goblin on the top of an ogre at the entrance who does the repairs.

The Assembly of Iron with Runemaster was the hardest. Tank died. Tank died. Raid exploded. Tank died. Series of bad lucks or errors. And definitely this was the greatest moment for me in the night. The raid was OK, unless someone was left in an explosion. However the paladins had hard time healing the tank while moving. So I switched to my holy pala talent and gave a nice proof that a rotten brokkoli can MT heal:

Finally two easy bosses: Ignis and Razorscale hit the ground.
I also got 3 epics (one of them is DPS, but still better than my former blue).

So to summarize: the 5000G/week I pay to this guild is the best way I could spend my gold. What I pay for is the professional atmosphere, the lack of M&S.

And surprisingly, at no fight was I some boosted noob at the bottom of the meters (or surrounded by dead assignments). While I was definitely not the best, I was OK. After all, WoW is not rocket science. What makes it seems like is the crawling horde of M&S who can turn even a Sarth+0 to a wipefest.

So I would suggest everyone who wants to raid but afraid he is not good enough for a good guild to apply. These guys are not super-humans with abilities you cannot dream of. They are simply not stupid. If you can read materials, come prepared, use consumables, follow the raid leader and know your spells, you are good to go. Go for it! You deserve better than boosting M&S in Naxx.

And if you are a fellow goblin, go find a guild to support and to skip the application phase. It definitely worths it.


Thunderhorns said...

You sir, are correct. There are a few players that are cream of the crop, a small handful that really make the game easy and rarely ever miss a beat.

But for the most part, most guilds, even uber guilds, are populated by people that are merely "not stupid" as you put it with fairly average reaction times, game ability, and a willingness to research their class to maximize it and show up prepared.

And it is a pleasure to game with such people as they makes raids so much more enjoyable than having to group with PUGGers, far too many that make raiding a painful experience.

Unknown said...

Tesh recently wondered why people are interested in raiding. This it it. Your post also mirrors my own past experiences in a good raiding guild. When people consistently do the right thing, it's easy for everyone to attain the state of flow.

Anonymous said...

Im glad that you found a good guild and really like your site full of info. Yet i find the concept of paying 5k/week to join a guild totally moronic (no offense) when you could have easily joined the same exact guild for free.

In a previous article the title was "Milking morons" and I firmly believe that you have just been milked.

Anyway it is your money after all... your wish on how you want to spend it.... its meaningless for us to tell you what to do with your money.

Just gonna wish you good luck though and hope your guild experience doesnt change :)

Anonymous said...

Sounds awesome, glad you're having fun!

Unknown said...

Our new goblin member is in no way being "milked".

It it takes less of a time investment for him to make the 5k gold then it would take to raid on a regular basis (all our 3 raids/week), which I guess his schedule will not allow, or he simply does not wish to do.

And the he also makes that 5000g faster then our own members would (who are are more into raiding then business). So by investing a few hours of his time, he saves us many more hours (outside raid time), since we can now repair on the guild bank and give out some free consumables.

It's quite a good trade for both parts, in my opinion.

DarkKnight said...

You apparently haven't read his article about the requirements he demanded for those 5k g/week.

But that is:
"So here is my offer to that raiding guild:

* 5000G/week to the guildbank. That's 260000G/year.
* Selling guild acquired items for a good price.
* Finding cheap ways to fill the guildbank with consumables and other raider-needed stuff
* Giving personalized gold-making tips for guildmembers.
* Payment for every items I get on raids. Of course I only take items that are not needed to a raider-mainspec.

What I want:

* Crafting for both the guild and my own businesses. I send the guildmember the mats in a mail, he crafts the item when it's convenient and sends me the product.
* 1-2 raids in the "not firstkill but not altrun either" period, somewhere 3-4 weeks after firstkill, when it's still challenging (for me). It's quite OK for me to be in the starter group cleaning the first bosses, and when the progression bosses come, leave the instance. If I keep on wiping the raid, I accept being switched out. I'm fully aware that while I'm not a bad raider, I'm definitely not someone you want on a server firstkill. I have dual healing spec, 2030 healing, 375 casting MP5 in tree form and ready to do any healing job.
* Raids (or at least my presence in them) must end before 23:00, as I have work next day.
* Guild must be on an EU-english realm, horde side, english- or hungarian-speaking.
* If the inviting guild contains a fellow blogger (with a good blog), that is a big pro for that guild. I would keep on blogging, but it could barely affect the guild as I won't be near the drama-heated situations, and my visitors surely don't expect guildwatch here. But if you want to keep the business-related things like "I sold 2 [uberpriestnecklace] for the guild for 7 zillion G" in secret, I'm not the best choice for you."

Especially note his first point of "What I want". Which to me sounds like a good deal if you can make use of it on a regular basis.
Plus he doesn't have to satisfy normal requirements of raiders.
So that's why he pays 5k g. Is that getting milked or just setting your own terms to suit you best?

ps. I saw during preview that someone also already commented about it :).

Anonymous said...

radu: would you still have taken him if he'd wanted to tank? (Just curious because I know that none of the hardcoreish raids on my server are recruiting tanks, but they all want druid healers)

Unknown said...

Yes, I would have. Recruitment for healers was closed when he joined us.

Anonymous said...

I for one is really happy that Mr Goblin have joined the guild. For me as an achievement whore it gives me the opportunity to "waste" my gold on other stuff such as the mammoth, gettin Shen'dralar and Darkmoon Faire to exalted while still being able to hold the same amount of playing time.

I think it's a really good deal for both sides. We can offer good raids and let Mr. Goblin experience all content while we get the benefit of not having to spend extra time of getting gold to support it. Basically a capitalist dream, everyone does what they do the best and then we all profit the most.


Unknown said...

Glad you feel your investment well worth, iam always reading your blog and its fun to see you go around, i recently started learning to maximize my profits in the auction house, make like 1-2k each day now, lil thanks to you :)

Larísa said...

Im SO happy to read about your enjoyable raiding. Grats Gevlon! Still I can't help wondering for how long your new guild will want to charge you 5 k gold a week... Won't they finally feel bad about it when they realize that you're really pulling your own weight in the raids?
Time will show.

Inquisitor said...

This is the thing, he *could* have joined a guild on normal terms, and not paid - any competent healer who can think and type could.

But this is Gevlon. He doesn't relate to people in quite the same way as you or I. In particular, he doesn't get his warm fuzzies from people telling him he is great.

5k/week isn't a massive investment for him. I'm guessing it's maybe 2 hours a week of his time, but it may well be less. And remember that's time he was spending voluntarily, before, to see if he could. (The gold cap. It's like ice cream.)

What does he get? The sense of professional distance he feels more comfortable with. He *isn't* under pressure to perform amazingly - and his position is assured, rather than him needing to worry about internal politics, jostling for raid spots, and so forth.

If you have to struggle to buy an epic mount, maybe that costs looks too big for you, but how about if it was phrased 'spend 2 hours in battlegrounds a week, and you get to raid hassle free', or two hours doing dailies. Whatever.

Also, of course, he likes making money, and now he has an excuse to keep doing it, as well as a new server to learn, and an entire guild to manage financially.

I'd say he's done very well for himself (and the guild clearly aren't upset about their end of the deal). Then again, he set out what he was looking for, and he got it, so *of course* he's done well for himself.

If only the rest of the world was capable of being so precise about, and focussed on, their goals.

Thunderhorns said...

5000 gold a week is pretty fair to get great gear and not have the stress of the guild requirements. He pretty much gets to do what he wants when he wants, and gets to raid with a 25 man Ulduar guild that is guaranteed to hook him up with some really good gear as well as give him access to their resources.

Let's be real here. This is a guy who had 220,000 gold sitting around on his character. He has his epic mount. He has whatever stuff he can buy that he wants to buy.

Now he gets to pick up raid gear that he normally would not have access too without commiting to hardcore raiding requirements and he still gets to basically be a casual raider.

I would say given the ease with which he makes gold, this is an idea set up. Seriously, the gold is just pixel gold. He earns it easy. And he wouldn't have access to raid content without a raid guild.

This is a perfect way for The Goblin to spend his gold. It's not like he could buy conquest badges and Conqueror gear on the AH.

I say kudos to The Goblin. He found a way to do serious, efficient raiding for a modest price and a modest time investment. Most people with the same time constraints The Goblin lives under will never see the same gear he will now have as an Ulduar 25 raider.

I think he made a very sound investment. Not only from a gear standpoint, but he'll also be able to enjoy the high end raid content that might otherwise be denied him. So he's improving his fun and his value.

Rohan said...

Well, to be fair, Gevlon is paying for 1 slot per week.

Most serious guilds won't accept someone as a regular raider who raids so little. It's much more preferable to have someone who can raid for the majority of the guild's schedule.

Otherwise, it causes more logistics headaches than it helps. After all, they are sacrificing one raid slot and the experience/gear inherent in that slot on a healer who will not help them on progression content (at least, not on a regular basis). So both sides do have a cost and a benefit from the transaction.

But glad to see you finally understand what competent raiding is like, Gevlon.

joost said...

[Quoting] all your text where you mention How smooth and good things go and how not stupid it is.[quote]

With all the respect you defently deserve for this goblin money making stuff I have to say after reading this post it makes me euh.
Where you really that unknowing? It kinda makes you look like a noobi kid that has never seen the world or something. There are enough M&S guilds out there and those prob created the pugging as that sometimes is better as you don't have to dedicated yourself to raid times but u can go and leave when ever you like.
But there is still more then enough guilds out that that raid like this and that is really nothing special. Especially with the "new raiding" quite some guild handle a very casual raid schedule and still have a good progression.
I really had problems reading how surprised and happy you where, its nice ofcourse but did you never raided beside pugs?

Anonymous said...

welcome to the reason pugs fail.

People in *semi reasonable* guilds don't pug.

By semi-reasonable, I estimate the top 50% of all active raiding guilds on each server? Below 50% still doing naxx10 etc...

Really, this is how raiding is. This is how raiding is supposed to be. This is what most raiders have been doing since Kara or before...

Carra said...

Glad to hear you are having fun again. Yes, the difference between a bad and good guild can be huge and let you have fun again.

In a good guild, the people aren't super but they do what they have to do and above all, the organization is better. Slacking is simply not allowed. Good leaders make all the difference.

Anonymous said...

Sorry fanboys, but Anon1 is correct here. This is what being in a guild is all about. He could have done this for free, but was always against joining a guild for the fear of "drama" or whatever. Now he is being "milked" even if he or the guild doesn't want to admit it. Who's the M&S now?

Anonymous said...

Every deal is a good deal, as long as both sides accept it without problems, and benefit is guarantied for all of them. So i say, good deal, good luck!

Sok sikert és jó cuccokat!
Egy a sok magyar olvasó közül:

Sparks said...

Glad to see you've found your good middle ground for WoW and the gold game. Keep posting, I'm formulating ideas for sponsoring events on my realm and want to get more inspiration.

Anonymous said...

Gratz man, I am glad that you are getting what u needed. That is all that matters and I think 20K gold a month is a small investment to pay for personal satisfaction. I was worried we were going to lose you after you capped. Your blog and a couple others on the links on your page have helped me get my epic flyer and pretty much anything I have needed/wanted in this game at level 70 while leveling on a new server. Your advice is sound as I am sure that you current decision is as well. Best of luck and let us know how it is going on your new server’s auction house.

ZachPruckowski said...

"Now he is being "milked" even if he or the guild doesn't want to admit it. Who's the M&S now?"

I disagree. Both he and guild appear happy (assuming the commenters claiming to be guildies are). He gets to do the part of raiding that's interesting to him in exchange for a few hours a week of helping the guild. That's how the arrangement usually works.

Instead of those hours being spent helping guildies gear up in heroics or farming Naxx25 or going and wiping all night on Vezax or Yogg-Saron*, his contribution is his gold-making and crafting abilities. Given that he's the most efficient among his guildies at bringing in gold, it's a win-win. He helps the guild with his specialty, leaving the other guildies free to help in other ways, or just to have more fun (whoever's going for the "Insane" achievement).

* - Given that they passed Mimiron and it wasn't a first kill, and given that you haven't mentioned them having beaten Yogg-Saron, I'm assuming they're on Vezax or Yogg, as Mimiron is the hardest Watcher.

Panos said...

So, the guild got someone to sort out their finances, allowing guild-funded consumables and repairs. And the greedy goblin got his extra gold buffer to play in AH...wit the added return of getting into raids...

Good deal m8, good deal... you get to raid and you get to play in the AH. The guild gets someone to fund them in-game and get a descent healer. This is a good deal...

Criven said...

Seems like it's going well. I'll hold my judgement for a few months down the line - that'll be where the proof of the pudding will be.

With a bit of luck, both sides will still be holding up their end of the bargain, and both sides will still be happy with it.

Dan said...

Right on Gev! Glad to see your first Ulduar run was a success.

William said...

Grats Gevlon, seems like your deal is indeed paying off and both sides are enjoying the benefits :)

There's just one thing I'm curious about. How many serious offers did you actually receive from guilds during the time you had your post up on your blog?

Outsydr said...

After you raid with competent people, you never want to go back to M&S. Glad you've found some new friends to share victories, triumphs and gold with.

Chris said...

Who would ever want to deal with M&S?

Unknown said...

For the record, we have killed Yogg two weeks ago and are working on hard modes now. We only raid 3 days a week.

Anonymous said...

"So I would suggest everyone who wants to raid but afraid he is not good enough for a good guild to apply. These guys are not super-humans with abilities you cannot dream of. They are simply not stupid."

Gevlon, I've only been reading this blog for a couple months now, but I can confidently say that this is the most accurate thing you've ever written here. That's exactly the situation I was in: A crappy guild that could clear Naxx and Maly with reasonable ease and Sarth+1 after a night of wipes, and that's it. I then applied to a few top guilds without much hope of getting a shot, but lo and behold one took a chance on me. Now I can say that I cleared through 25 man Vezax in the first reset, finished off Yogg during the second reset, and am a Mimiron hardmode kill away from facing off against Algalon in 10 man Ulduar. You would be amazed at just how far you can go in this game by simply being not stupid.

So, congrats on finding a guild that fits you Gev. This will be a whole new game for you now.

Elleiras said...

If both sides are happy with the arrangement, then no one is being "milked."

Still, I have to say the guild is getting the better end of the deal. I have several raiders who (due to timezones, real life commitments, etc.) can only attend one out of three weekly raids. They always have a spot on the day they can attend and have never had to pay it. None of my once-a-week raiders are exceptional players (largely because their gear tends to trail behind), but they're competent, and the guild as a whole is progressing through Ulduar at a decent pace with few non-progression wipes and fast recoveries.

I just wish I could find a Gevlon to manage my guild bank, raid heal once and a while (and pay me for the privilege!).

Viscount said...

Congrats Gev, Glad you finally found an environment and a new challenge for you. Most people join guilds for the sole reason of avoiding M&S, but how well you avoid it depends on you and how hard you are willing to look. If you are a M&S about finding a good guild, there will be M&S in that guild.

I would like to know, and I am sure others too. About how the whole application process went for you. I would love to see an article maybe with Radu helping about how it went on both sides, how they contacted you, how you picked them, etc.

@ all those who think this is unequitable one way or the other. This isnt just a payment for services, this is an investment that see's a return. Gevlon not only gets the "Now" reward of raiding, a challenge, and loot. But he also uses his money to help invest in his guild. By funding them and providing good support, this opens the ammount of time they have to dedicate to keeping raids smooth and operating at peak efficiency, with less time farming mats and buffs. This keeps all players able to operate at peak playing capacity even when Gevlon is not in raid. This will allow them to be more sucessful, and down more content in the future, strengthening the guild, and providing Gevlon with more oportunity to see further content. Not only that, this acts as a check to the guild itself. Gevlon may have joined, but he is still a mercenary. If the guild doesnt follow through with its contract, and is not able to provide an atmosphere he feels inclined to stick with, he is free and able to move on to greener pastures and they loose his benefit. So they have to police themselfs even more to make sure that they maintain high standards. Just as Gevlon has to maintain his buisness acumen to maintain his end of the deal as well.

Kudos all around.

Anonymous said...

A brilliant plan come to fruition.

Grats and I think we are all super happy that you are playing the game and having fun again .... screenshots!

Anonymous said...

You've inspired me to look for a similar setup! I've been on both sides of the fence (raided through sarth +2D prior to 3.1). My guild fell apart right before 3.1 went live.

Since 3.1 hit I've gone from 15K to 97K gold (includes missing a week from family vacation/ business trip). Even as the market slows i'm still pulling in 3K+ a day.

Point being I would sneeze at 5K a week to have your setup. I reached the all to familiar 'raid burnout' so am not actively seeking a new guild.

I ROFL at the ones saying your being milked knowing how easy it is to make 5K a week. I wouldn't hesitate given the same oppurtunity.

Kudos to you and your guild on this 'win/win'!

Anonymous said...

Grats Mr. Goblin.
Sounds like a perfect arrangement.

Would love some posts about your new business on the new server. How are you adapting to the new economy? Are glyphs still the way to go? Could you envision a scenario when 5k per week would become a problem (or take too much time)?

Radu said...

@ Viscount

On our part, we sent him a mail with our offer, which was a concrete version of his request. We also outlined our plans of using the gold to improve the guild.

I included of course a description of our guild, or philosophy of play, our history, and our plans.

Unknown said...

yep, 20k a month to raid is pretty moronic. that's the bottom line based on the viewpoint of Gevlon in that attaining something that takes minimal time by overpaying is moronic.

it is pretty funny to read all of these stories and ways to make money off of morons through AH is pretty much the same application as buying a guild for raids.

People buy over priced glyphs bc they are too lazy to get the mats and find a scribe to craft the item for them. In the same manner he is paying for a guild for their service, and the amount is pretty ridiculous imo since it can be attained for free with a little work.

MyName said...

Just going to agree with the previous comments. This is what brings people to raiding guilds, despite the drama that sometimes comes about. I can't say I'd be willing to pay 5K per week for that, but having been one of the starting members of guild that's been around for two years (and raiding most of that), I'd say I probably put in much more time investment than Gevlon will.

I suppose Gevlon's gold is a compensation for that investment, if you want to look at it like that.

Eaten by a Grue said...

David, that is actually pretty insightful.

The only thing I can think of is that his time is worth more to him than the 5K gold per week. He cannot afford to invest the real time necessary to get acceptance into a serious raiding guild, so he pays gold instead. It is a rational action.

He does, however, have the real world time to invest into making the gold. Making WoW gold is also time consuming, but at least it can be done entirely on one's own schedule.

Anonymous said...

I have to disagree with the 'anon' commenters, Gevlon could not have joined a competent guild, for free, while only raiding 1 night/week, it just would not have happened.

1 night/week guilds are full of M&S, Gevlon would have lasted a single raid before leaving.

Radu is also correct, Gevlon is raiding exactly as he wishes and his time investment for 5kg/week is... insignificant.

It is the perfect capitalistic situation, the guild raiders have the most efficient method of farming consumables (Gevlon), Gevlon has the raiding that he wants, with a guild that he would continue to raid with.

Congratulations to both of you, you've found exactly what you all want.

Anonymous said...

So... gevlon is "smart" by paying gold for something (a raid spot) that he could get cheaper because it saves him time.

But everyone who buys a expensive glyph on the AH when they could get it cheaper by buying the mats and getting someone to craft it is a Moron or Slacker?

Gevlon. You are a hypocrite. Plain and simple. You justify everything you do, because you know your reasons. However, when someone else does the same thing, and you don't know their reasons, you call them a Moron.


Unknown said...

But everyone who buys a expensive glyph on the AH when they could get it cheaper by buying the mats and getting someone to craft it is a Moron or Slacker?
That's a fine strawman you got there. If one can make more money in the time it takes to collect the mats and craft a glyph than the glyph costs on the open market, then it's completely reasonable to buy it.

Anonymous said...

Blogger Hirvox said...

That's a fine strawman you got there. If one can make more money in the time it takes to collect the mats and craft a glyph than the glyph costs on the open market, then it's completely reasonable to buy it.that is my point. There are reasons for people to do things other then what first appears to be less effective, or less rational. People weigh cost vs reward....and there are as many variables to consider as there are people considering them.

Gevlon discounts all reasons he does not agree with, and labels anyone who decides to "waste" gold as a moron.

Viscount said...

From what I have seen of him, he doesn't see anyone and everyone who buys from as a moron. I think he would agree, that if someone could have more value for their time then the time it would take farming, they are not a moron for purchasing things.
You have to remember though.. Gevlon is not a farmer... he is a businessman. He makes all his profit by buying mats of the AH and doing minimal crafting work and then reselling it for a much higher mat cost value. The time effort it takes him is very minimal and thats his point. The tricks he does are not magic or secrets, its him playing the system which anyone can do. The ones he is "Milking" or considers M&S are the ones who do not take advantage of this.

As far as him paying the 5k per week. It does not equate to the same situation. The time effort it would take him to fufill his guild obligation as a normal raider would be much greater. To just field a guess, lets say this is a guild that raids 3 nights a week, and raids from 3 to 4 hours, and I would say that is a very conservative estimate. He raids one night a week and is not expected to raid the other nights. In order to be a qualified raider and get the service for free, he would have to spend another 6 hours minimum of his time (non-flexible time as well) in order to fufill his agreement.
By his own reports he can make 5k in about an hours time. (flexible time) His money making is mainly researching good deals, crafting items, then restocking them on the AH. Alot of these things made easier through the use of macros and add-ons.

Honestly the way I see it, those that are critisizing this are jealous. Of Gevlons sucess (because it while it doesnt make him write, it also shows he isnt wrong.) and that of the good fortune of the guild he is partnered with. To them it's a very equitable agreement. They are skilled at producing good raid progression, and he is good at producing suply materials.
I must say his comparisons of a philanthropist are a little extreme, but he is happy, he is paying his 14$, and now his 5k gold as well. Finding how your happy in this game is all that matters at the end of the day.

Severin said...

Make an arrangement with some paladin to throw Hand of Protection on you on XT-002 Earthquake (it deals physical damage, so you won't be affected).
Mimiron P2 healing is a real challenge, and wait a bit for Vezax where things get VERY interesting!

Rob Dejournett said...

Good job Gevlon, i agree with others. I am a resto druid, about as geared as you (almost identical). I left a hardcore guild. Now i want to see ulduar, so i applied to some decent guilds. They said no way without 3 nights a week 4 hours a shot. No thanks for me, that is too much. If I was better at making money I would try that 5000g a week route (that would make all the difference for serious raiding guilds). As it is I'll probably never see ulduar unless its a PUG.

Bukki said...

Have been reading your posts over the past few days. Interesting stuff. A quick thought on you 'holy pally' spec, from a fellow druid. I assume you are primarily using Healing Touch and Nourish with this spec. I would suggest, at minimum, pulling your 1 point from Nature's Splendor and 1 point from Gift of the Earth Mother and put them into 2/2 Empowered Touch. Again, this is assuming you AREN'T rolling Rej or LB on any but the tank.

I noticed you have the Nourish glyph. So you may not be using HT that much. I have to say I do not currently using that glyph so I am unsure if you get close to the amount HT would heal with it.

You could also make HT into a spell similar to 'flash of light' if you add the HT glyph and move the 3 pts from Subtlety to Naturalist. You would just have to be more aware of threat when beginning a fight or changing phases.

Anyway, some things to think about.. if you haven't already. Good blogging!!