Greedy Goblin

Thursday, December 17, 2015

No Endie in MoA, just no.

There is still no official statement where Bat Country will go and so far I didn't care. But Massadeath mentioned that MoA is in the process of recruiting some great corps and I started to bug me until I connected the two. Maybe Bat is going to MoA. It is clear that I don't have any control over MoA, they recruit whoever they want. However I do have control over my money and I won't give a dime to an alliance that gives shelter to Endie, period. Let me explain my reasons:
  • Endie was one of the top Goons. For all we hate them, he is very much responsible. He was there when they decided to create this disgusting hive of AFK-ratting anti-meritocracy. He served them on the CSM, influencing CCP to bend the game rules to the bidding to his master, just as outlined in the document of shame where he was signatory. Taking him would be much worse than PL taking Makalu. If Sion is Bormann, then he is definitely Ribbentrop.
  • He never regretted, apologized for or condemned these former wrongdoings. He is only leaving Goons for being outplayed by Sion. There isn't even a token statement from him that he would do anything differently. He still didn't turn on Goons, he is not leaking, stealing or doing anything that would jeopardize a departure on friendly terms. Friendly, with Goons is the key here.
  • He is a snake. It's possible that his "departure" is just a cover to move to an alliance, destroy it from within and return to Goons with fanfares. He is a really good smooth talker and could sow mistrust between leadership figures, bully FCs or corps out. If he'd get to MoA, my guess would be going after the new #1 corp Raging Angels. Him quoting me in his "leak" makes this scenario more likely. Why else would he do it if not to kiss my butt to let him in?
  • Even if he genuinly want to change, it doesn't mean he can. He lived that life for years and his gut reactions will stay. This means that even if he really wants to fight The Mittani, he'll do it the "Goon way" (tricks, manipulation, spying) which works on NC. but not on Goons themselves. Goons won't be beaten on their own turf (sorry r/eve), they can only be beaten by forcing them to play on the turf they suck horribly: spaceship PvP. So even if he is honest, he would lead his group to large resources wasted on "great plans" that end with nothing but good TMC material like the NC. Fountain invasion.
  • Update: see the Bat Country analysis below!
Endie is "just no".

Note: I do not have any direct information that they are trying to get into MoA, but it's better safe than sorry. Also my arguments work for all groups thinking about taking him.

Finally: if Endie is trying to contact me, he'll be blocked. If he wants my advice, here it is: delete all your known pilots, get a good solo killboard against Emporium with a new pilot and then apply, forever keeping secret that you were once that horrible Endie!

PS: the PS-es on this article were - like PS-es usually - joke.

Update: So, thanks to Anonymous, I ran a quick statistics on Bat Country for August, September, October using the Goonswarm kill data and the loss data of the Imperium for these months. Below you can see what alliances contributed more than 10B to the killboard of Bat:
Rank Alliance B Damage done B Damage taken ISK ratio
1 #Corp: FEANOR Special Team 21 0 100
2 The Gorgon Empire 14 1 91
3 Mordus Angels 4 10 26
4 #Corp: PLA Logistics 12 0 100
5 #Corp: Shadow of Darkness 10 1 93
6 Dangerous Voltage 10 0 99
- #NPC Corporations 100 7 94
- #NPC loss# 0 67 0
- Sum of small ones 366 73 83
- Total 537 159 77

Oops. Their biggest "enemies" are highsec corps, NPC corp members and tiny corps. The only noticable enemy is MoA, who pwned them. Oh, and "NPC Losses" that means guristas and Concord. Such elite! Let's see who did they fly with (got on kills together):
Rank Alliance B Damage helped
1 Goonswarm Federation 110
2 CODE. 63
3 #Corp: Never Ignorant Gettin' Goals Accomplished 62
- #NPC Corporations 17
- Sum of small ones 38
- Total 290

Oops again: beside other Goons they fly with more gankers. Finally, where did they fight?
Rank Space B Damage done B Damage taken ISK ratio
1 HighDomain 191 36 84
2 HighThe Citadel 169 23 88
3 HighLonetrek 75 20 79
4 Deklein 28 45 38
5 HighSinq Laison 21 6 79
6 HighThe Forge 21 4 85
7 Providence 5 8 39
8 Pure Blind 7 5 58
- Sum of small ones 20 13 61
- Total 537 159 77

So besides getting killed by MoA in Deklein and getting dunked in Provi, all they did was ganking in highsec. Here are their top kills (spoiler: highsec freighters) 5B, 3B, 5B, 10B, 3B, 5B, 3B, 5B, 3B, 4B, 6B, 3B, 5B, 7B, 3B, 3B, 2B, 2B, 4B, 3B, 6B, 3B, 3B, 3B, 6B, 6B, 4B, 4B, 2B, 4B, 5B, 3B, 3B, 2B, 4B, 6B, 3B, 6B, 6B, 6B, 6B, 7B, 7B, 9B, 4B, 4B, 10B, 5B, 2B, 10B, 2B, 2B, 6B, 3B, 6B, 6B, 3B, 12B, 3B, 5B, 3B, 5B, 5B, 5B, 3B, 10B, 2B, 6B, 5B, 4B, 6B, 7B, 7B, 2B,

Forget Endie! Forget metagaming! Forget my money! Bat is as shit in PvP as one can be and they can be recruited nowhere but CODE. Here is what they could contribute to the alliance they'd join: 3B, 4B, 3B, 4B, 2B,


Anonymous said...

If endie convinces MoA to accept him, he will have made you stop funding the only force currently able to significantly damage Goonswarm. That would be a large victory for the goons. Why do you care about anything but MoA's killboard efficiency?

johnhoward said...

Dear Gevlon
We have just left what is arguably the easiest life in eve because (amongst other reasons) Endie's position there is untenable. That should tell you something about the esteem with which he is held within our corp as well as the loyalty we feel towards each other.
There is zero chance of Bat landing anywhere that does not take all of our pilots. If anyone has a problem with that it's their loss.
P.S. Glad you clarified that your previous comments were a joke and not the product of raging hypocrisy. With your track record of backing out on contracts no-one is surprised.

Gevlon said...

@Anon: yes it would be. However Endie in MoA AND me keep funding them would be an even larger victory.

@johnhoward: the member graph tells everything I need to know about about the loyalty you feel towards each other

johnhoward said...

Mr Goblin
As has been covered already in numerous other sources the journey which we are about to undertake will not be an easy one. Mindful of this fact (and due to the Imperium 'generously' wanting to retain eyeballs) we have been actively encouraging members of our corporation to parachute into the easy life within GoonWaffe.
All of the data points for what is occurring have been laid out for you in great length on numerous public sources on the internet. However, the one data point that cannot be given to you is an understanding of how human beings interact socially. As you lack this crucial peace of information any conclusion you reach will as usual be wildly inaccurate.
It must be infuriating.
Best Regards

Anonymous said...

It's hilarious how over the top butthurt you are. It's also incredibly dumb, since what you're sayign is that he can never do right by you, which would go the same for a lot of people in goons, so noone in goons has any incentive to leave if they are always going to be treated like goons even if they leave. This is just one of the many reasons your retareded plan hasn;t worked and will never work. You'll be fighting this battle forever wasting your time and isk because you're too stupid to know how to fight properly. At least it's funny watching you flail your arms calling other people morons when we all know that the moron of the year is definitely and without a doubt you.

Off to the bin with this post, because you can't handle the truth!

Tobi said...

It's totaly normal, that you have ppl that leave, but you also have a strong core in Bat that will follow Endie.
Right now, our only option is to go to waffle or follow endie blind...
It's normal that the average bat-member will choose Waffle, bc its nearly the same life befor bat decided to leave.
After we know, what ende has planed and what Bat will do , Bats membernummer will rise again.

And by BOB its not going to be Moa.....
- Tobi // Bat-Core-Member // Endie can't wait for the new adventure

Gevlon said...

@johnhoward: you encourage members to stay with Goonwaffe claim that you take on a hard journey (because nullsec life is so hard that only the elite membership of Dreddit, Karmafleet, Pandemic Horde and PFR can hope to succeed) to protect your self-image. This way you can keep believing in your friendship despite obvious evidence (being abandoned). This is like the loser guy generously "letting go" her girlfriend when she is noticed by a model agency instead of waiting for being dumped. The truth is that if you'd beg and plea to every member to stay with you, the dotlan graph would be the same.

@anonymous: indeed, he can never do right by me. Just like the world found that Nazi leaders can never do right and hanged them. This would go the same for all Goon leaders (in-game exclusion, not the real life hanging). However line members who just took on the opportunity to AFK rat safely are different. I actively encourage them to leave goons and happy when they do.

While lot of people claim that I should fight "properly", but no one bothers to tell me how. Will you?

The bin is for information-less insults. You posted a valid comment with "he can never do right", so it stayed.

Pheredhel said...

I have to agree with quite some comments here thought the reasons are somewhat different.

The main point is that this blog post goes against your own rules.
It is solely motivated by your perception of who cares about what social actions how.

I'd really rather go by pure numbers. You may want to add another metric if you think that would cause trouble.

One example would be to run a measure on the Kill distribution in Bat Country and MoA.
That way you can just do it by simple Math:

- if BC/Endie/... kill enough Goons to be worth your while, you win (significantly more damage to goons)
- if they don't, either find an agreement to keep your funds from them or stop paying MoA.

This gives a simple solution: withhold your donation for one or two months after the join, do a full evaluation and decide based on that.
I think that is a way better "goblin way" of doing it than doing it by "I believe that".

Simply put: the only way you can loose is, if Endie manages to reduce the damage to the Emporium.

In other words: stop the social reasons, do the goblin.

Gevlon said...

@Pheredhel: I find it obvious that he'll reduce Emporium losses.
Also, he can ruin MoA killboard, increasing Emporium morale.

Anonymous said...

Hey, Gevlon, so I hear you're super excited about numbers and such things, and thinks "the meat of bat country is leaving for greener pastures".

Why don't you crunch the numbers on all the characters who were in bat country before this thing kicked off and give us an overview of how active they all were, PVP-wise, in the years leading up to the drama event, and how many of those have quit thus far.

Oh, and if you're really enthusiastic, do the same thing in a year.

maxim said...

I agree with Pheredhel.
You assume that Endie can't reform, but that's an assumption that is social in nature (you base it on your social animosity towards Endie).
You have made it known that Endie is a problem. However, you don't need to be all "scorched earth" about it.
In the event of MoA hiring Endie, you obviously should cease financial support. But it doesn't sound like an altogether bad idea to give MoA leadership some options, possibly tied to performance figures of both Endie's corp and MoA overall.

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: why should I spend any time running statistics on some random corp? I don't care about Bat, assuming they aren't in MoA.

@Maxim: I don't "assume". There is zero evidence that supports that he is even wanting to reform. Losing an internal power struggle against Sion doesn't make him a good person. It makes him a loser bad person.

Anonymous said...

So no numbercrunching? And here I thought you wanted to use every opportunity you could to make Endie look bad and to underline your claim that "the majority of the productive people in bat have now left him behind". Surely that would be beneficial to you, and hinder him in his move into MoA (because if BAT is/will become the empty shell you say it is, surely MoA would be even less enthusiastic about taking Endie in).

Guess not, then. Oh well, don't say nobody warned you if Endie does go to MoA, and your most effective tool against the goonies has to be cut off from your funding, thus rendering them less effective against your forever enemy.

Gevlon said...

@Anon: that number crunching cannot be done, even if I wanted, because Bat was and is in Goonswarm. So I can only measure how good they are in doing Goon things that transform very badly on how to do MoA things. It's like making a stat on highsec miners (on the m3 they mine) and based on telling which miner would be a great capital hotdropper for PL.

If MoA leadership lets Endie in, MoA is dead with or without my support, as that snake will no doubt manages to sow enough drama for internal collapse. But it's not a big problem, as MoA pilots act independently already. They will find new groups (most likely Out of Sight, Project Mayhem, or just reform under an FC and live again). I can also hope that they kick Bat after 1-2 months seeing how badly things went since Endie joined.

Anonymous said...

Come now, everyone knows that the only thing you do in nullsec PVP is press F1 and orbit the FC, even if bat country is as bad as you're making them out to be (haven't seen PvP for years), if they still have active members when they do move into MoA at the very least they'll be able to provide more warm bodies for the ganks, which would make MoA more efficient at working against goons.

Surely even MoA's FCs won't be so bad they can't make use of F1/orbit-only capable pilots.

Gevlon said...

@Anon: small-gang is a bit different, there is often no anchor. But there is something worse: losing supers, titans and bling. Bat is known to have them and use them use them in a stupid manner:

MoA managed to create an image of unstoppable hunters both inside and among Goons with their 75-80% ISK ratio. Goons don't even try to fight but run, because there is no point as they can only kill cheap doctrines. Imagine that Goons could destroy a hundreds of billions of MoA capitals! They would be revitalized, ratter defense fleets would be filled, station camps would restart.

maxim said...

With the updated data, i'd be very surprised if Bats joined MoA, so any further discussion on this particular topic doesn't interest me.

However, a separate topic was raised that is of interest.

Suppose i was working for evil corporation X, and was rather successful (got to executive levels). And then i left said corporation for whatever reasons. Do i deserve an automatic "clean slate" start in new place of work, or do i need to publicly distance myself from the corporation i worked for, denounce everything they stand for and maybe even change my own name?
In other words, how does asocial justify using social baggage a person carries from previous life as a means of predicting their future performance? Why would an asocial resist giving "clean slate" start to anyone, providing all their future performance is measured against objective parameters?

Gevlon said...

@maxim: your past objective actions aren't "social baggage" but very objective baggage. Your past opinions are social baggage. If a homeless drunkard would show up in a job interview with nothing on his record but crimes, but claims that he changed, would you take him?

Endie has nothing to show for but lies, manipulation and other evil. So it's not a long shot to assume he is INCAPABLE to do anything else. So before being accepted, he must actively prove that he is good for something else.

Halycon said...


Depends how you got to executive level. It's a truism that the people on executive level after a certain amount of time passes are not the best people to be on executive level. There's actual data to back that up now, it's not just everyone grumbling in the lower ranks. Executives deal with other executives and they want people they can socially work long hours with; not the person who's best at the job and ruffles feathers. Every now and again an organization will luck out and get both, but it's a rare occurrence. One of the weirder growing businesses now are companies that will tell you the correct way to suckup to specific high profile people in businesses. Not how to make a company think you're great, but how to make a specific person hiring on the executive fast track think your someone he personally can work with.

So, how did Endie get where he is? Being good at his job, or giving good talk? If the latter, then no amount of falling on his sword makes him a good acquisition.

Anonymous said...

Come now, you can't compare a podkill and super/titan kills and at the same time say that you can't possibly glean any information whatsoever from sifting through bat country's activity.

At the very least you can see how many of the pilots are actually active (and not just there for ratting purposes), and compare those numbers pre-drama and post-drama, and see how many ratters and vs PVPers are leaving, and how many are staying.

As I said, if you can point out that a majority of the PVPers are leaving, that'll be important information to bring on to MOA. After all, I'm sure they won't want to take on a useless corp, if it turns out to be one because all the active PVPers are staying in goonswarm to enjoy the "easiest living in eve", and the majority of those staying with bat country are just useless chaff to bolster the numbers and look good.

Anonymous said...

You say endie is evil yet I'm willing to bet you have never taken any time to get to know him, you are just throwing mindless hatred towards him because he worked with mittens. As for BATs joining MOA, you yourself in this very blog have said Bat Country are one of the better pvp corps in the imperium. Not just that but they also were the core of the GIA as well as the corp that invented almost all of todays highsec ganking tacics.

The damage MOA could inflict with these tools and experience would be greatly improved, hence the scramble from everyone to recruit them.

Gevlon said...

@Anon: the post has been updated and the result is clear: they never had any PvP-er to begin with. Also, if you're the same anon as above, thanks for your idea!

@Last anon: after the stats posted today, no one will want them. They are nothing but highsec gankers and ratters. They would be useless to MoA (and everyone but CODE) even if Endie wouldn't be a snake.

Thomak said...

If and when Bat actually leaves. Right now all the Endieleaks stuff looks more like a ploy to get rid of Sion.

Anyway, getting some defectors willing to share intel on the inner workings of the GSF and hence a better understanding on how to disrupt those might be of some value.

Unknown said...

Maybe the BAT analysis is symbolic of what the CFC has become (SIGS & easy mode campaigns) rather than representing BAT pvp capability? I very much doubt BAT will join MOA but I wonder if Chaos Theory might be a more suitable & familiar place to call home?

As much as I like to kill goonies in game, I'm also a little forgiving of CFC players/corps that later realise their mistake in joining the hegmony. An edifice, such as the CFC, does not collapse without any initial signs so I welcome the appearance of the hair line cracks & won't inadvertently glue them up by critising players/corps that dare to leave, whatever motivation they may have in doing so.

Gevlon said...

@Thomak: they are leaving because they lost the ploy against Sion. Yes, defectors giving info would help. But Endie didn't give a single piece of info in his leaks.

@Kinis: if you do something for long, you become that thing. Maybe BAT just started to gank for spicing up. But after years of doing nothing else, I doubt they can do anything else.

I'm not menacing with ex-CFC corps. Did I do anything about the ex-SMA guys? If Bat would just quit and go to Shadow of xXdeath, I didn't even notice it. But Endie needed to stir all that crap and freaked me out badly that he might sneak his way into MoA and I clearly couldn't let a bunch of GIA + useless gankers do that.

Anonymous said...

Dear Gevlon,

I'm reading your bloc every so often and I never felt like I have to "correct" you, or make a stance towards anybody you may or may not insult or accuse of something you consider bad ingame wise. Many others apparently had the urge to speak to you through this comment section. I always liked your blog and still do, - huge fan!

During the time I witnessed the wildest theories about this and that, and how you're so very sure "x" will happen as a conclusion of your statistics or what not. Most didn't happen.
Just like now: you claim no one will want to accept BAT besides CODE. ("after the stats posted today, no one will want them")

Therefore I dare you now and here to bet with me. I say they will be accepted regarless where they choose to go. Please don't come up with stuff like, "sure, some low tier alliance will accept them blah, blah", just bet with me. Not much, dare I say 25b ISK? If you agree, I'll convo you ingame.

Best regards - A fan

Gevlon said...

I have to be naive to believe that they won't be accepted to some "good place". They will be, because:
- The "good place" is equally shit, (NC. Darkness)
- They don't read my blog or believe my stats and too lazy to do it themselves
- They believe that Endie has such metagaming powers that it worth having him despite his shitty corp

Also, since most dealings are hidden, we'll never know if they get rejected somewhere. All we'll see is that they show up in some place or another.

Anonymous said...

So everything you just said is fruitless Gevlon-rage? You just admitted that they will be accepted somewhere. Earlier you said they won't be. Bummer.

A fan

Gevlon said...

Why should I care where they go if it's not MoA (and other groups expecting my money)?
If NC. or TEST takes them, their problem!

Anonymous said...

You must either have a very high opinion of Endie's skills, or a very low opinion of MoA's will if you think one person can destroy them.

posix compliant said...

I thought your whole philosophy was that individuals don't matter.

I agree with you that this would be a bad idea for MoA, but why don't you let the consequences naturally occur as they stop being as efficient? You're letting them make you play their game: they play a game of individuals and relationships, where you play a game of incentives and economics.

Forget his name, and focus on being an implacable force of nature. Let your money do the optimization instead of trying to micromanage it. If he does end up joining and it does reduce the amount of goon kills, then redistribute your prize toward someone else.

Anonymous said...

I was expecting them to join CODE

Excellent analysis, they are all the smug tear harvesters in hisec, if MOA took them in that would be suicide for MOA.

Dracvlad (On an extended break from Eve but watching events.)