Greedy Goblin

Saturday, August 8, 2015

Going full Gevlon

It's all just fun and reddit noise until someone files an official petition:
Context in the post yesterday. Of course I won't be able to inform you about the CCP response, but since you can't remove a CSM in silence, you'll know.

Update: I just noticed that the case is worse than I first thought. The dev post that Sion claimed to be a purposeful lie contains "They seem to be confusing a little bit of fun with an actual act of vandalism. Although this isn't our doing, Goonswarm, you have my apologies. We're working on contacting several outlets to let them know that their stories are incorrect and should be edited." So he claims that CCP as a company contacted news outlets for correction while in full knowledge that the articles were correct. This would make CCP as a company unreliable for the real world media if it was true. Of course it's not, it's just a disgusting lie by Sion to be able to claim both for Goons and others "we have very powerful friends, don't worry/don't mess with us".

I also advise you to save the TMC page before it disappears.


Dangphat said...

You will never feel embarrassed because you lack self awareness, but this post is a huge error by you.
You have assumed the premise that protecting a group of people from unnecessary public attack is showing favouritism. This is just good stewardship. You are trying to be that person who brings down a csm member, you just instead look ill informed.

Gevlon said...

That's debatable but it's a mere side issue anyway. The two main issues are:
- Sion made internal CCP-CSM communication and CCP decision making public, a violation of DNA
- Sion claimed that CCP Falcon in an official post purposefully lied to the community. I'd advise to read the dev post: "We're working on contacting several outlets to let them know that their stories are incorrect and should be edited." Contacting news outlets for correction when you are knowing full well that it's correct is not something any company can do for whatever reason. Not disclosing information can be good stewardship. Outright lying is not, since it places blame on other groups of people.

Ex said...

You realize this has been out in the public domain for nearly 12 months, and not once has anyone issued a complaint or CCP taken any issue with it?

Gevlon said...

@Ex: Somer Blink was out in the public for several years and even received valuable gifts and promotions from CCP before someone informed them that they are actually ISK sellers.

Actually I didn't issue any complaint because I couldn't care less about that tldr. I only read the lines that admitted that Goons were the vandals and ignored the rest as damage control/spin. My bad.

Lorelei Ierendi said...

Well it will be good (at least) to have on the record that CCP does nothing about this scandal...

Gevlon said...

We don't know that. The ticket was submitted in Saturday morning and before that they had no reason to know/care. Now they are officially notified, we just need to be patient. Investigations of this scale can easily take a week without any malice.

I won't disappear, they know that. I had a ticket being ignored for 2 month but I kept bugging them until they handled it.

Anonymous said...

Does a "this is not a problem, we will not kick him out of CSM" count as handled or is anything other than you get what you want a reason to annoy them further?

Gevlon said...

Call your workplace/place you volunteer liars in public, naming a high-ranking manager personally responsible! Claim that they are protecting criminals. See what happens!

Claims that Sion made can end only three ways:
- Sion is called a liar and kicked (maybe forced to apologize, resign CSM and allowed to stay in the game like his boss)
- CCP acknowledges the claims of Sion, apologizes media and customers and demotes Falcon into line CM, placing new methods to prevent it happening again. Practically T20 gate part II.
- Hope that no one notices.

I've just closed the last option.

Babar said...

Somer Blink was shut down because the outrage from the community became too much for CCP to ignore. You have basically guaranteed that there never will be any public outrage about this at all. The whole subject is basically tainted, and anyone trying to bring it up will just be called a "Gevlon tinfoil" or something.

In the same way that nobody ever talks about RvB being allied/supported by GSF, nobody will talk about this either.

Gevlon said...

@Babar there are three differences:
- RvB being CFC is the result of my analysis, you can dismiss it as "Gevlon tinfoil", while in this case I added nothing to the topic. I just copy-pasted Sion posts. Also, the RvB leader lost 2/3 of his votes in the next election, so people cared.
- RvB being CFC is judged by "the community". A petition is judged by CCP in formal process. Of course none of the underlinks of Falcon will dare to sign anything like this without covering their ass. Falcon himself signing it would be damning itself, as the petition mentions him. So CCP must address it the highest level.
- According to the dev post, they contacted "news outlets". If nothing happens, I'll do the same. You probably know that journalists HATE when they have a story and you force them to redact it. Imagine their outrage if they were scammed into redaction. I'm talking about out of EVE, real media, who don't know or care about Goons or Gevlon.

Arrendis said...

The TMC page isn't going anywhere. Feel free to bookmark it. Save the text. I have a copy.

Gevlon said...

@Arrendis: does that mean that the Goon version is "this is the truth, Falcon is a liar and the Goon T20 and we aren't even ashamed"?

Arrendis said...

Gevlon: I have no idea about the 'Goon version'. I do not, and cannot, claim to speak for Goonswarm. I'm not a Director, and I'm not Mittens.

As an Editor at TMC, though? That means that as a responsible news organization, TMC has a responsibility to say 'this is what we published, we're not going to claim we didn't'.

You can take all the shots you like at the idea that we're a news organization. You can certainly take shots at whether we're any good at being a news organization. And you can, of course, label us a propaganda site all you like.

Our focus has expanded well past EVE, and the last time I checked, there are no Goons on Saturn, Pluto, or NGC 6565. I'm not going to claim to have the final say at TMC - that's Mittens, and it always will be, but I will say that he's got his eyes on a ball that's a lot longer-term than a single spaceship game.

No matter how many times we've disagreed, I have never lied to you - if you think I have, feel free to show me demonstrable proof of deception, not just me being wrong. I'm not gonna start lying to you now. So far as I am aware (because I can't make claims about things I'm not aware of, obviously) there are no plans to scrub that article from our site.

And even if I'm wrong, and there are? It's not gonna happen while I'm an editor there. Save a copy of the text if you like. I have one. I keep copies of a lot of our pieces, just so I can go back and refer to 'how did we handle this?' I also have copies of my own work there, both for the 'I am really proud of this' (the final piece on Reavers in Querious, for example), and 'I totally boned this, don't do that again' (the piece where I tried to make a joke about having annoyed Elo Knight so much asking him for comments, that he'd turn around and kill my triage carrier because I was SO IMPORTANT - really, the joke there is: you always kill the triage nid ASAP. It's just what you do). So feel free to save a copy of that article's text. Compare and contrast in a week, or a month, or whenever.

It's not going anywhere.

Jim L said...

There are plenty of other ways for this to end.

- CCP could announce that Sion does not have all of the facts (due to privacy concerns) and so he is not an accurate judge of truth.

- The could punish Sion in a non-public way that you would never be aware of since they will not publicly comment on disciplinary issues.

They could discipline CCP Falcon in a non-public way that you never would be aware of since they are not going to publicly comment on employee disciplinary issues.

Anonymous said...

Somer Blink was shut down because he revealed an internal communication between himself and a CCP employee. This same communication showed CCP was quite OK with Somer's plans. CCP never implicated him in RMT. Somer only revealed the communication to protect himself from the public backlash. However, the act of revealing the communication was a violation of the EULA and CCP quickly jumped to ban him for it. Its amazing everyone thinks Somer was banned for RMT.

Its a lot Martha Stewart going to prison for perjury (she perjured herself due to following bad advise from her lawyers, in a misguided attempt to protect herself from the insider trading charges), even though the original investigation was over insider trading, not perjury.

maxim said...

You will make a post about how you were wrong though?
Because there is a difference between standing your ground and simply being irresponsible.

Gevlon said...

@Jim: yes they can. However it won't satisfy the ones lied to: the media.

@Anon: I'm referring to their first "shut down", when they were told to not give blink credits. They kept existing, but didn't make money anymore, so they tried again, resulting a ban.

Arrendis said...

You will make a post about how you were wrong though?

Unless CCP informs us that Sion's statements are not accurate, updating the article to indicate they're not would be unfounded. If CCP does demonstrate to us that Sion's statements are not accurate, then we would be remiss if at the very least the article in question were not updated to include a statement to that effect.

Because there is a difference between standing your ground and simply being irresponsible.

I completely agree.

I would also like to point out that Sion's article doesn't call Falcon a liar. Sion's words are quite clear:

"CCP Falcon realized that implicating an entire alliance would have serious consequences for an alliance full of innocent people. He went out of his way to ensure that no one knew who was responsible and fought internally to make sure that it stayed that way. There would be no naming and shaming. There would be no guilt by association. He is the reason why those stacks of articles don’t all say “Goonswarm vandalizes monument”. He knew that while he was capable of making the distinction between guilty individuals and the innocence of the whole, others would not have so easy a time with such nuance."

As Sion stated, this was the act of individuals, not the Alliance. This was not 'Goonswarm' doing something, but rather a pair of jackasses of varying degrees who happened to be Goons. So: when a US Army soldier breaks the law, did [i]The US Army[/i] break the law, or that individual? Did [i]the United States of America[/i] kill people in a church in Charleston? Or did one person who happened to be American?

Falcon's dev post indicates that he contacted media outlets to tell them that they were in error about whether or not the acts were perpetrated by 'Goonswarm'. Is that obfuscation? Yes. Hell yes. A billion times yes. Is it lying?

No. Goonswarm - the organization - condemned the act immediately, through its leadership and through its representatives. These individuals weren't acting on behalf of Goonswarm, or with Goonswarm's blessing.

The obfuscation might be annoying to some who would like to cast all of us as evil incarnate, engaged in a vast conspiracy where we all approve of the most dastardly deeds before they're committed*. However, the vast majority of the alliance did nothing wrong, and to say 'Goonswarm' did it would be to accuse us all equally, including the leadership who actively moved to assist CCP in their investigation. Would it have been more accurate to say 'individual members of Goonswarm'? Sure. But that's not the route Falcon took. Falcon, as a responsible Community Moderator, laid things out truthfully (if opaquely) in such a way as to de-escalate the situation. That's his job. It's what he's supposed to do. And Sion accurately points out that:

"CCP Falcon is an asshole. He’s foul-mouthed and rough around the edges. But he believes in the integrity of the game and the integrity of the players, and he’s willing to fight within CCP to make sure that the community is treated well and that emotions don’t overrule ideals. He takes a lot of the blame and usually receives none of the credit. He believes in EVE and our community."

Let's be 100% completely clear here: the article Gevlon is decrying is a defense of CCP Falcon following the publication of this article, also on TMC.

* - I will note I do not include Gevlon among those people, as he has made it quite clear that his agenda is attempting to change the culture of Goonswarm, which would be quite impossible if we were such a monolithic incarnation of malevolence.

Gevlon said...

@Arrendis: "CCP Falcon, despite knowing full well that the vandalism was committed by a pair of Goonswarm members, apologized to Goonswarm for people wrongly accusing us. Why?"

In which universe this does not mean "lying"?
Sure, he continues that CCP Falcon was lying for a greater good (protecting Goons).

Let's be 100% completely clear here: I believe the first article was a purposeful troll posted to allow Sion to reply. This way he could create the narrative without being obvious in NDA violation. He could say "the info is already out there, I'm just set it right". I believe that the first article was purposefully attacking Falcon to allow Sion to "defend" him.

Arrendis said...

I believe the first article was a purposeful troll posted to allow Sion to reply.

It wasn't. A writer found a story they felt should be told, and they told it.

In which universe this does not mean "lying"?

In this universe, dude. In this universe where Hungary is not leveling these accusations at Sion, you are. An individual. Goonswarm is an organization. The douches who did this are individuals who are/were associated with that organization, but they don't represent it.

That's not lying. And he wasn't protecting Goonswarm, he was doing his job and protecting the thousands of individual players who had nothing to do with it.

Gevlon said...

@Arrendis: you claim to be a "news editor". Now think with that hat on. You post an article after proper research. CCP Games contact you that it's not factually correct and request an edit. You swallow your pride, apologize to the readers for the error and edit your post.

Later turns out that your post was correct at the first time, it's now incorrect. Wouldn't you be mad at CCP Games? Would you care if they made you edit for "protecting innocents".

Arrendis said...

Gevlon, as an editor, if we posted an article after proper research, and CCP Games contacted us and told us that it's not factually correct and request an edit... my first question is:

"Can you prove it?"

Check what I said earlier:
If CCP does demonstrate to us that Sion's statements are not accurate,

No, I'm not taking their word for it. If we did our due diligence on the initial article, then they've got to give me something that proves we're wrong, or it's just them blowing smoke.

At the same time, if I posted an article that said 'The Nation of Hungary accuses Sion Kumitomo and of Libel', and someone from the UN came to me and said 'uhm... it's not Hungary doing that. It's one guy, and he could be IP spoofing for all we know. Can't confirm or deny his location. Against UN policy, sorry' then the first thing I'm doing is checking our research.

If our research is solid, I'm not changing shit. If it's not, though, well, then by publishing an accusation against an organization that wasn't responsible for the thing I'm accusing them of, I'm committing Libel, and it's legally actionable. That right there? That's the 'protecting innocents' part - Falcon was protecting paying customers of CCP Games against potentially libelous statements.

So at that point, if I can't prove I'm right? I am not fucking making accusations, because if I do, I'm opening my publication up for a lawsuit. I like my job. I don't want to lose it because I got us sued when I can't prove I'm right.

But if I'm right the first time, and I can show that I'm right, and they can't give me convincing proof that our research is wrong?

They can fucking pound sand, man, I ain't changin' a goddamned thing. Find me an editor who will, and I'll find you one who's shite at the job.

Jim L said...

In the world called reality it is not a lie. He explained the distinction. You do not like the distinction because it goes against your narrative so you ignore it.

What exactly is the lie? Quote the words exactly. Don't give me your crazy, twisted conspiracy interpretation. What exact words were the lie?

Gevlon said...

@Jim L: "CCP Falcon, despite knowing full well that the vandalism was committed by a pair of Goonswarm members, apologized to Goonswarm for people wrongly accusing us." quote from Sion

Jim L said...

Gevlon, that is not a lie. The vandalism was done by two people who were Goonswarm members but was not done by Goonswarm itself. Any person who implied the vandalism was done by Goonswarm was wrong and should apologize and edit their articles.

There is a clear distinction between the vandalism being done by Goonswarm itself and it being done by two individuals who happen to be Goonswarm members. You are a propagandist with an agenda to drive so you choose to ignore this distinction, but that does not make others who acknowledge the distinction to be liars.

Two Greeks are arrested for burglary. Does that make the headline "Greece burglarizes a home" accurate? Of course not. Those Greeks were not conducting official policy of Greece, they were acting on their own. The two Goonswarm members were not acting as official representatives of The Goonswarm. They were acting on their own. Any headline implying otherwise is not accurate and needs to be corrected.

Gevlon said...

@Jim L: see Monday article