Greedy Goblin

Thursday, March 26, 2015

Denying "gudfites" and pirates

There is a pastebin circulating on EVE related sites. It's an alleged chatlog from CFC Fleet Commander chat, where a new FC wanted to bring out a fleet to kill hostiles, but was ordered to stand down as no timer was at risk, so it's best to not provide fun fights to the opponents, even if the friendly pilots also get bored. "blue ball or blob is the order" - no doubt from the highest CFC leadership.

Since CFC isn't attacking anything and they actually abandoned 3 regions when Phoebe hit to avoid defending it, we can conclude that CFC pilots got used to not fighting. They are ratting like there was no tomorrow, so they found "content" fitting to their skills. So the strategy of CFC to defeat N3 by blueballing/blobbing will likely work. The "elitePvP" alliances will get bored and leave.

This means CFC is undefeatable, but fear not, because the pirates are here. They don't want "gudfites" any more than CFC members and they love ganking ratting ships just as much as Goons love ratting. The various "enemies" of Goons are making complicated strategy plans that always fail. On the other hand this strategy works and will destroy Goons:

While this flowchart doesn't look serious, it is. I really believe that the way to stop CFC is to kill them one by one while ratting, hauling, mining. If they stop making ISK, they'll switch to highsec alts and won't bother fleeting up for "blue ball or blob".

Quick business tip: everyone received a Luxury Yacht BPC. Build the ship and sell it, even in Jita!

PS: why does someone AFK rat in a 900M pod?


Anonymous said...

Killing goons as they rat / haul / whatever is certainly the best strategy, bring the hurt to their house and revel in their pain!

The "FC chat log"? That has to be fake. NO ONE and I mean NO ONE spells that well all the time in live chat.

Ok. So, what about getting new players tracked to PvP and specifically joining groups like MoA? The obvious solution is non wardeccable highsec corps... but we all know the opposition to that.

Anonymous said...

But the thing is. Your very own yearly data show that the attacks on AFK ratters are NOT making any actual dent in the CFC finances.
Sure, monthly profits are less than they could be, but they are still profits across the board.

And as long the the CFC holds sov that will keep on being the case.

maxim said...

Sov and damage done in relation to goon financial flow size concerns aside, maintaining that loop ultimately requires way more energy than staying docked.
You need way more than 1x5 ISK efficiency to win

Stabs said...

Approx cost of an "afktar" = 250 million.

Approx isk / hour in ishtar = approx 50 million per ishtar.

Break even is at one loss per 5 hours.

After I lost my Rattlesnake several months ago I switched to dual boxed ishtars. I ran them from June to December in Vale and Deklein without loss. I did occasionally lose drones when neuts came into local and I warped off quick. I also got tackled once (when I wasn't paying much attention) but was able to outfight the tacklers and killed an inty and a sabre then warped off.

On top of that Goons and CFC have income from :
- moon goo
- reaction towers
- PI
- mining
- market

Most of this isn't disrupted by enemies.

Very occasionally a new CFC member will face a train wreck of ratting losses that make them give up but apart from these rare individuals most people in the CFC are not being deterred by economic warfare.

There is a useful opportunity cost effect caused by making people pos up/preventing people being able to rat completely afk so the piracy you encourage has some effect but it's a raindrop not a nail.

Gevlon said...

It's obvious that Goons make more ISK AFK ratting than they lose to pirates. Otherwise they'd be already defeated.

My point is that by increasing pirate activity, we can push the gain:loss ratio to the limit where the random Goonie gives up.

Anonymous said...

"My point is that by increasing pirate activity, we can push the gain:loss ratio to the limit where the random Goonie gives up."

this cannot be achieved endless with pushing ISK to pirates. It will get more and more boring for them. Ofc you have a break even point were you are most effictive with ISK destroyed. But for more ISK they need to camp more or even less used system to get the better ishtar users. and this will exhaust them on the long run.

They wont do it to the ultimateness, as it is no fun for the pirates to go nuts for the last ishtars. they only will go for quick wins.

you must allways think about components of "fun" and how they want to use their playtime. Not only ISK matters for them.

bringing more and more pirates to deklein wont help it on the long run. as they will be bored after some month and go away

Ryanis said...

I'm not so sure: in catch, people are still AFK ratting (even in carrier) while there are hostiles every 10/15 minutes in local and they do kill ratters...
With current goon SRP, pilots are actually gaining ISK while loosing ships, they only rat for other activities (and probably just for having ISK).
Out of SOV warfare, they are harmless, ignoring them is the best way to go.

nightgerbil said...

Gevlon isn't this what you always preach?

(9:28:29 PM) reagalan: So.
Earlier today I had a domifleet with 230 dudes and great comp, full boosts, triage, fuckloads of capital support, 170 FYF support, 110 ishtar support, and bomber support. I had twice what the hostiles had in a doctrine that countered them. I could have jumped right into them while they were set up and wrecked their face earlier today.
Why didn't I?
Because the hostiles wanted me to do that. They wanted a fight. They would have lost that fight, but they would have got a fight. They would have gotten a handful of kills, and we would have gotten about an equal number in return.
But that isn't the way we do things, and it never will be. I don't want to give the enemies a single fucking inch of what they want. Not one bit. They either get helldunked or blueballed. There is no middle ground.
You have two options: get with the program, or fuck off and go join some elitepvp fuckfest who care about kill death ratios instead of playing the objective..
(9:28:42 PM) kilgarth: WHAT THE FUCK WALL OF TEXT
(9:28:46 PM) scooter_mccabe: tl;dr

They exclude morons and slackers; people who are stupid (M), who don't pull their weight (S) and anyone who won't join something (S).

Its got me wondering. Isn't 6 months posting In SA forums abit like "being a goon" university? I can't complain that I wont be hired by your firm in hungary as I a) don't speak hungarian and b) I never got an engineering degree right? So I SHOULDn't have your job or a job like it.

What is your opinion about that, am I missing something?

Gevlon said...

@nightgerbil: I never said that Goons are doing the "blueball or blob" wrong. The others doing it wrong for not hunting their ratters instead.

SA membership has nothing to do with playing EVE. Being "good poster" has no correlation with being "good EVE player". Asking this is like asking Tennis Club membership for being a doctor.

Also, an SA Goon can stay Goon after he proved to be inactive or other ways useless (they don't click paplinks).

Mirkali Maricadie said...

@nightgerbil: It's not even really a "Goon University" anymore, since Goonswarm rarely gets goons from these days. has changed a lot, and no longer has much cultural similarity with those in Goonswarm. Hence Goons started up Karmafleet, because you might as well open up a new flow of members from there, even if they are terrible posters most of the time.

@Gevlon: Don't forget sponsored Goons by SA Goons also get a free pass. As for your idea of overwhelming Goons via overwhelming numbers killing ratters... I think there may be something to that, but at some point it would generate a larger response. And by a larger response, I mean Smartbombing Battleships at strategic gates. Assuming most of the people running around killing ratters are in their Interceptors.

Goonswarm's (and by extension the CFC's) greatest strength has been and always will be infrastructure. While attacking their money source will weaken that to some degree, It won't do enough. If you were to overwhelm CFC Corps who have lax recruiting standards with organized awox/spy alts by a great number of people, then you can wreak havoc by sowing mistrust, reducing recruitment via stronger recruiting standards, and say for things like Karmafleet, reducing the friendliness to newbies as they'll be paranoid of anyone joining. You can even manipulate the intel channels and software with enough fake reports to make people not trust their own intel tools.

I understand you mainly think of the ISK Gevlon, but to really crush a coalition you need to crush both its infrastructure and culture.

Anonymous said...

goonwaffe also click paplinks and also get displayed in statistics. but they get not purged, thats correct. would be also stupid to purge the main corp.

"SA membership has nothing to do with playing EVE."
in an indirect way it has something to do with it. it is a bond. it is something that is keeping it together. you underestimate social aspects

Anonymous said...

Going by that log I'd say the biggest victim of goons is their own members. They are basically AI units in the civ game of a few leaders.

Anonymous said...

I love your idea. Killing ratters is awesome. I am in the CFC and I support this whole-heartedly. You doing this has stimulated the local Dek market for ship builders, has increased our focus on good ratting practices and caused more members to fit ships better. You are teaching our noobs to fly better and weeding out the weak.

Please keep it up. Oh and just remember the carrier that is still ratting with prirates in system is not bait. It has no cyno and there are no other carriers recalling drones in hopes you hot drop on us!