Greedy Goblin

Friday, June 20, 2014

Tears and trolls

Everyone is happy to consider the communication of enemies "tears" or "trolling". They obviously don't consider their communication tears. Let's decide this question, when something is tears/trolling and when it is not?

The answer is simple: always. Every single piece of communication between enemies (except for peace negotiations) are tears or trolling. When Goons comment anything on my forum topic, they are either crying or trolling me to cry. If I reply to their comment, I'm either crying or trolling them to cry. Same for every exchange on local chat, hence the rule of "no talking on local" of corps that wish to see themselves "mature". Yes, "good fight" is tears or trolling too. If the dead guy says it, it means "I had fun and didn't want that ship anyway". If the killer says, it means "I had lot of fun ganking you, noob". This is best shown by the (in)famous Code of the New Order: "Upon being suicide ganked, a miner should congratulate the ganker on his success. A `good fight` or `gf` in local is customary."

Why? Because if reasonable communication could work between the parties, there wouldn't be a war at all. Wars are negative sum interactions. Goonie loses jump freighter, I lose wardec cost and all we gained is laughing on the loss of the other one. War is the most expensive way of settling differences. Don't you think that if talking would work, it would have worked by now? So words are no longer serving another purpose than making the enemy mad. Or to show that you are mad by losing control over your mouth.

So the rule of communication with the enemy is simple: don't! You can try to fish for tears, and you sometimes has to bump threads but these are double-edged actions: what you consider a troll, others might consider tears. The enemy definitely will. So put them on ignore, block them and focus your effort on killing them.

I mentioned that honest peace talks are an exception. They happen when someone is losing badly enough that he is ready to give up much of what he was fighting for. Could I start such peace talks with Goons? Theoretically yes, but what should I give up to get peace from them? Practically playing EVE. They hated me before I even downloaded the client, because I'm a "pubbie". It's not what I do in EVE make them hate me, but what I do in real life: not participating on that horrible forum. They don't want me to reform, they don't want to assimilate me like the borg, they just want me to stop playing. So I - and every other "pubbie shitlord" - has nowhere to retreat besides ending our lives in New Eden. So you guessed it, there won't be peace talks until Goons lost enough so they initiate it. This will keep me busy for a year or more.

I'm not sure if linking these kills is crying or trolling.
I'm almost crying about this and this. How can a fellow human beings be that dumb?!


Comrade Blade said...

Except when you gf in local is followed by a lengthy discussion on ship fitting and tactics in a private conversation afterwards and the occasional invitation to a Corp... which is pretty common in low sec PvP.

Anonymous said...

I say "gg" in pretty much any PvP game I have ever played, and it has nothing to do with trolling, or tears. It's called sportsmenship. It's the same as when I played hockey when I was younger, you always went to the bench of the other team at the end of the game, and said "good game", regardless of if you won or not. This is how competitive games have worked forever, and how competitive sports have worked for longer then I have been alive.

nightgerbil said...

Totally disagree. Im the first person to jump over the tennis net to shake your hand after a match, wether I won or lost. That neither tears nor trolling just an appreciation of the fact you played with me.

Similarily in wow arenas that I have lost and versus other hunters who beat me in 1v1s in BGS, I had and have no fear of making an alt on their server and /w them a grats and then having a convo with them about how they beat me and the state of the meta. I wouldn't be half the player I am today in wow without the time of those players (some of whom were glads or arenamasters btw) who took the time to chat to the respectful guy who basically said "GF" and tell him what he did wrong and how he could do better.

Gevlon the WORST most damaging thing you can do to yourself is to shut yourself out from outside input. It will cripple your learning curve. Its not a weakness to listen.

Gevlon said...

@Nightgerbil, Anon: you simply mistake EVE PvP for any other PvP game. Those games are fair fights, a sport. The other tennis player wasn't out to hurt you, but to play with you.

In EVE, the PvP is a gank. An attempt to destroy your assets. It was pre-planned in a way to minimize your chances to even run. A simulated war. Would you expect US and Al Queda soldiers shake hands after a fight?

Kaeda Maxwell said...

Or just sportsmanship, because you know it's a game. Much like congratulating an opponent that beats me at chess isn't tears or trolling.
Before you go there Formula 1 isn't 'fair' either yet it is still considered a sport.
And please don't go and project motives onto me, I'm not out to hurt the other guy I just want to fight him because I find fighting things in EVE interesting. And no I don't mind losing things either, ships to many people in EVE are just tools that they use to some purpose until they break and get replaced. That purpose for many of us is getting into fights (some people like me even enjoy taking uphill fights because it makes winning that much more satisfying).

Or because some people just want to watch things burn, they have no motive to 'settle' anything they just want make things go boom.

Since you like to always make it sound like every fight in EVE is a gank, let me ask you a counter question.
What is the value of a victory (to you) if the outcome was never in any doubt?

Because to me, because I see EVE as a game, there isn't really any emotional gratification to be found in a kill I didn't work for. That can take many forms it can be because it was a cool 1vs1 fight, me vs. many people or because it needed really fast action (catching alert miners in 0.0 for example is quite hard even if their ships aren't that threatening so the hunt and not the kill is the actual source of satisfaction there).
Sure I've ganked opportune things, but these aren't the kills I remember or play EVE for. The ones I remember are the ones where I had to really work really hard for a victory. I killed over 300 miners in a month during Hulkageddon V I don't recall a single one (my motive was to be the top killer in Amarr highsec for the event which I succeeded at), I do still recall the first real solo fight I ever won and also the first outnumbered fight I ever won. And many after.

Basically I think I see the game fundamentally differently from you. I chase after experiences in EVE, memorable moments and also (cheap or not) thrills. Material pixel gain just isn't really a thing that gets my blood racing as a result I pretty much shrug of losses quite easily too. And as such I have no issue giving a 'gf' when I die solo to a larger group and meaning it.

Anonymous said...

I'd say at least some PvP in EVE is consensual- two people zipping around in lowsec in FW areas, for example. 'GF' can be used piss off the person you killed, but it can also just be an acknowledgement of hey, I enjoyed fighting you, that was difficult/you played well.

The way your post reads, I think you're letting the way Goons think (play to piss people off) influence you too much.

Gevlon said...

@Kaeda: you answered your own question. The "game" in EVE is strategic. Like you being top Hulkageddoner in Amarr.

A "fight" isn't like a chess game. It's taking down a pawn of the opponent in the chess game. I say ALL EVE PvP is boring, exactly because the outcome is always known, just like the outcome of your pawn moving to the tile occupied by other pawn is boring. ALWAYS the attacking pawn wins.

Yet the game itself is interesting. There was a high chance that you will not become top Amarr killer, yet you made it. There was a reasonable chance that Goons can't capture Fountain, yet the CFC directorate attacked. Everyone said that my money crusade against Goons will not provide significant damage and here I am with over 1T dead CFC.

Sending out a fleet = playing chess
Being in the fleet, actually PvP-ing = being a pawn in the chess game of another.

Anonymous said...

"I say ALL EVE PvP is boring, exactly because the outcome is always known,"

Nope. Ofcourse you know a lot of times, that you will crush your opponent, when you are blobbing him, or you just have the better fleetcomp.
But there are also fights, were you just dont know the outcome.
You really seem to lack fleet-experience.
GF can happen often in eve, and then it is a contribution to having had a good fight. not for trolling. Or you say GF because the enemy didnt retreat. Thats no shitposting.

killfalcon said...

Gevlon, I think you are over generalising. Aggressive wars in eve do work like that: not all EVE PvP is like that. There remain places where people fight for fights' sake.
And no, PvP is not deterministic, especially at small scales.

Anonymous said...

As usual, you fail to see the woods for the trees.

There are plenty of cases where goon enemies maintain diplomatic ties with goons. PL have been at war with the Goons many times and they relationship between the 2 entities is pretty good most of the times.

There is in fact a jabber channel where the leaders of most of the important players wheel and deal despite the fact that they are "mortal enemies" - so to state that the only time you should be talking is when you are suing for peace is pretty hilarious.

You then go on to give us this chestnut:

They hated me before I even downloaded the client, because I'm a "pubbie". It's not what I do in EVE make them hate me, but what I do in real life: not participating on that horrible forum.

Absolutely not the case. Goon's don't hate you because you are a pubbie. They have formed the most successful power block in the game with pubbies who outnumber goons. There are very important people in the CFC and even GSF who would be considered pubbies. The only people who are not pubbies are the people who are on the SA forums, i.e. Goonwaffe pilots - one corporation in a coalition of hundreds.

In fact, I very much doubt before you started your campaign that the goons cared much about you at all. Oh yes they were entertained when you joined TEST, and when your donation board failed miserably, and when you micdroped and walked out on TEST... but I doubt they thought much of you at all at this point.

If they do indeed care about you at all enough to hate you, it isn't because you are a pubbie - it is because you shit post. You talk about things for which you have little or no understanding, you publish woefully bad amateur statistical analysis, then draw the most hilariously wrong conclusions from it imaginable and declare it fact. You claim to understand more about the specific workings and motivations of the CFC than people who fly with them do and you post your dumb ideas all over the internet for everyone to see.

But rather than listen to people (both from within and without the CFC) trying to gently correct your errors you instead denounce them as trolls, moderate their reasoned posts, block them from view on the forums. You shut down from any sort of debate and declare your works to be right, good and accurate.

Here's a thought - how about a little humility on your part hmm? an acceptance that people might know more than you, might even be able to teach you a thing or two about these things that you post about? Perhaps then you will get the recognition you feel you are so richly entitled to. Perhaps then you might even get all your wishes and be accepted into the CFC as an important internet spaceship person.

CFC Grunt said...

>ALL EVE PvP is boring, exactly because the outcome is always known, just like the outcome of your pawn moving to the tile occupied by other pawn is boring. ALWAYS the attacking pawn wins.

Not necessarily. A lot of the time fights happen when one party is confident of their ability to win - one based on incomplete information. (That or they say 'balls to it' and attack regardless of presumed outcome.)

The battle happens, and the attacker doesn't win - what results is an actual fight, often followed by the winning FC saying "good fights in local, they had the guts to bring it to us".

>Being in the fleet, actually PvP-ing = being a pawn in the chess game of another.

Yes, I agree - to an extent. If a pawn could lose, make his own mistakes or prove instrumental to the fleet's success. This is especially true for specialist roles, such as tacklers or ewar ships.

Gevlon said...

@CFC Grunt: as I said, EVE is a strategic game. The strategist who set up the bait fleet and baits another to attack based on incomplete information wins.

That doesn't change the fact that the game is between the two FCs and the actual PvP-ers have practically no effect on the outcome (save for huge idiocy like the unscannable Tengu pilot who fitted the wrong kind of ECCM, making the fleet scannable).

My point isn't that EVE is boring. I wouldn't play if I'd believe that. My point is that actual PvP is the boring part. That's why The Mittani doesn't fly the bombless bomber himself.

Anonymous said...

At some level people enjoy being a pawn, otherwise they wouldn't fly the bomber, they would just refuse. If they got kicked, there's plenty other corps to join. So why do they do it.

Lyxi said...

>Perhaps then you might even get all your wishes and be accepted into the CFC as an important internet spaceship person.

And here we have a fine example of trolling, exactly in the form that Gevlon stated in the OP.

Top lel. Step up your game, goons.

CFC Grunt said...

Even in the CFC, the "blobbiest of the blobs", people have influence over the outcome.

- Tacklers/Heavy tacklers, depending on their skill the enemy fleet can either die or escape and reposition. In many fights, positioning is key.

In addition to that, interdictors/heavy interdictors can be used as anti-bomber ships, bubbling hostile bombers as they warp in - effectively disposing of the threat.

- Specialist interceptors/light tacklers. From burning perches to webbing anchors and helping in counter-bomber support.

- Logistics. There's a big difference in "unskilled logistics" and "amazing logis that are on the ball, aware of their surroundings and saving the fleet."

Gevlon said...

@Lyxi: that wasn't a troll, that was a peace offer (a bad one): "accept (publicly) that you were wrong and CFC was (is, will forever be) right and you can join the CFC as propaganda guy".

Sugar Kyle said...

PvP is not boring. Gevlon. It is time consuming and demands focus. One thing I have learned you give up to enter the meta game at a particular level is the free time to do one thing while ignoring all others.

It is a price.

Druur Monakh said...

@Gevlon: " I say ALL EVE PvP is boring, exactly because the outcome is always known"

Wrong and wrong. In my last two fights I was the attacker, yet until the last seconds both of them could have gone either way. (One was a draw, the other one I lost - in both cases I complimented my opponent in local.)

One important factor in non-boring/boring is whether you push your own limits and accept a high probability of loss, or not. If you only ever take sure-to-win fights, and subsequently get bored of it, that's your choice.

"Being in the fleet, actually PvP-ing = being a pawn in the chess game of another."

That's not how I experienced small gangs (let's say 2-20 people) to operate. Or maybe it's because I don't do sov.

Anonymous said...

all EVE PvP is boring? Have you ever done actual PvP gevlon? I have been PvPing for 8 years and can tell you that the outcome is definitely not always known, There is an expected outcome, Such as when I jump into a 10 man gang solo, You would say that I will always lose, And this just isn't the case at all. real PvP in EVE is extremely situational and there are a lot of factors that you can take advantage of to swing a fight in your favour, even heavily outmanned/outgunned.

Talking to someone after a fight However is not always trolling/tears, When I am at war with other PvP corps and we say GF after a 10 man BS fight. That is neither trolling nor tears, that is acknowledging that we enjoyed the fight and that we respect them for fighting, I highly suggest you go out and actually leave a station before you comment on how "boring" PvP is in EVE

Anonymous said...

It's kind of like this though: x fit ship will always beat y fit ship (assuming reasonable, normal flying and close range of skill points).

That makes Gevlon's "PVP is boring" comment correct, as the ship to ship interaction is a foregone conclusion.

The acts of scanning the opponent ship, refitting as necessary, planning bait, looking for gang traps, etc, that becomes the "interesting" part of the game.

Opponent communication being only trolls/tears is incorrect, though. Comrade Blade pointed out a common situation which is neither trolls/tears, and has nothing to do with a "fair" fight either.