When Burn Jita started, I saw allies joining to protect GSF from wardecs:
The highsec Goon slaves RvB weren't a surprise. Their performance was a surprise on the other hand. Or its lack actually. No, I don't mean we crushed them, I mean they didn't do any attempt to fight Lemmings and Marmites. If you check the killboard, neither side had significant losses. An unlucky gatecamper Marmite Cynnabal here, a missioning RvB battleship there, a few Lemming cruisers and such stuff, most unrelated to Burn Jita. It seems that while GSF controls RvB directorate, the members are fed up with serving Goons and ignored the calls to protect Goon Catalysts in 10% TiDi and rather brawled in Josameto or whatever.
Goons probably noticed the decreasing RvB member support, this is why they had to surrender their highsec POCOs. For Burn Jita, they needed someone else to protect them, since they couldn't expect Dabigredboat to do it as he couldn't even protect himself. So they hired Noir. So far so good, Noir are mercenaries, working for the highest bidder. The twist comes from the fact that until I noticed them allied to Goons, I thought they were working for me. For long I've been in negotiation with Noir leader Alekseyev Karrde, up to the details of how much bounty a Goon Catalyst or Vexor worth or the advantages of ECM frigs vs Scorpions.
You probably know that I have a long history with Noir, our previous contracts were mutually satisfactory. It's also not a secret that I spend 30B/month on the GRR project (add up the costs of Lemming and Marmite anti-CFC wars) and I did gladly split this money 3-ways when I hired Noir on the POCO wars. They got about 3B/week, which is around 13B/month. We discussed long-term cooperation, and the POCO contract was a long term itself, neither of us expected Goons to throw the towel in 2 weeks. For Burn Jita, I'd gladly pay them 10B to camp the gates in Scorpions.
I'm telling you this to understand how much Goons must have paid to make Noir betray this long cooperation. I'd like to stress that when I approached Aleks, he didn't say "sorry, we are already booked for Burn Jita weekend, find someone else", but made the fake negotiation over Catalyst bounties, making me believe that they work for me. So Noir didn't only take a one-time lucrative contract from Goons. Goons paid enough that worth not only burning every bridge towards me, but also taking a huge hit on their credibility. After all, who'd hire mercs who betrayed a high-profile client?
Let's add that random guys are discussing the story on Reddit:
OK, so far the post is a standard "scammed carebear cries and calls out the scammer" post that you could read in dozens in the "crime and punishment" EVE-O topic. Anything else here to see? Yes: that if you are a threat to the Goons, they pay you to stop being one. While they give their bullshit about space socialism and "power of the numbers", they actually fight with their wallets. When Black Legion caught a carrier fleet, they didn't ping for 1000 bombless bombers but paid approximately 800B to convert BL to their side in the Fountain war. Now when their losses to Marmite+Lemming are approaching a trillion (outdoing Asakai), they hired Noir, for approximately 20B upfront and 15B/month long term (if Aleks betrayed our partnership for less, he is a Cactusfrankie-level retard).
What does it mean? If you are leading a small gang PvP group, all you have to do is ganking Goons somewhere and soon a Goon diplo approaches with a fat offer to work for them instead. From there you'll be still doing what you'd do anyway (PvP) except you'll be killing N3/HERO/their renters and you won't have to rat ever again. So what are you waiting for? If you are in nullsec, off you go to Deklein to prove yourself to Goons, if you are in highsec, contact me and I give you an opportunity to kill enough Goons to make them hire you.
I'm just wondering when will the line CFC grunt ask the obvious question: if other people are getting multi-billion payments for protecting Goons, why am I getting a paplink for the same?
In such events "I didn't want this anyway" and "no shits given" is the standard procedure. I won't do that. Aleks was one of the very few people I trusted in EVE and when I realized his betrayal, I was upset and sad. So yes, "Gevlon is mad", op success here Goons. Like all mad carebears, I now swear that I'll spend every dime I have to destroy the Goons! Oh wait, I'm already spending every dime I make to destroy Goons. Also, I'm no longer mad as Marmites and Lemmings cheered me up.
PS: Noir is trying to save face with the nonsense claim of completing both contracts for the two sides in the same battle. But if you look at their killboard, you see that all their Goon "kills" are worthless whorings (or more specifically I couldn't find a useful kill in several pages). Let me explain: if someone goes GCC to gank, he has N seconds to live before Concord kills him. When the time is up, his ship becomes instantly jammed and then killed by Concord. It doesn't matter if he had full HP or he was damaged to 1% structure by players, he spent his N seconds ganking and then died. So the "killers" on the Concord mail had zero effect on the gank. There are only two ways to harm a ganker who is already on GCC: kill him before Concord does (this case he could spend less than N seconds ganking, decreasing his damage) or use ECM that makes him sit idly until Concord arrives. I didn't see a single Noir pilot in ECM ships, nor I found a kill on their killboard where the Noir guy used ECM. Same goes for suspects: when all Jita undock shoots the dumb Goon who had killright on a T3 and one of the 30+ killers is in Noir, do you really expect me to pay bounty for that? I couldn't find a single kill (though a few can exist as I did just manual killboard check) without Concord on it or more than a few % Noir damage. They flied interceptors which are probably the worst anti-gank ships in the game, but the best ships to whore on kills. This proves that they never intended to do any harm to CFC, therefore they never tried to fulfill the scam contract we negotiated.
Update: Hahaha, the idiot Aleks published our mails, saving me the trouble of deleting all the other mails and publish my mail API. As you can see I requested jamming GCC Goons. Can anyone find a single kill with a Noir guy listed with jammers (or jam-bonused ship)?
Update2: they indeed podded some CFC which hurts CFC, therefore deserves payment. (Ship whoring does not). I will pay that part when I have the killboard data or if Noir sends me a list of podkills.
Goons probably noticed the decreasing RvB member support, this is why they had to surrender their highsec POCOs. For Burn Jita, they needed someone else to protect them, since they couldn't expect Dabigredboat to do it as he couldn't even protect himself. So they hired Noir. So far so good, Noir are mercenaries, working for the highest bidder. The twist comes from the fact that until I noticed them allied to Goons, I thought they were working for me. For long I've been in negotiation with Noir leader Alekseyev Karrde, up to the details of how much bounty a Goon Catalyst or Vexor worth or the advantages of ECM frigs vs Scorpions.
You probably know that I have a long history with Noir, our previous contracts were mutually satisfactory. It's also not a secret that I spend 30B/month on the GRR project (add up the costs of Lemming and Marmite anti-CFC wars) and I did gladly split this money 3-ways when I hired Noir on the POCO wars. They got about 3B/week, which is around 13B/month. We discussed long-term cooperation, and the POCO contract was a long term itself, neither of us expected Goons to throw the towel in 2 weeks. For Burn Jita, I'd gladly pay them 10B to camp the gates in Scorpions.
I'm telling you this to understand how much Goons must have paid to make Noir betray this long cooperation. I'd like to stress that when I approached Aleks, he didn't say "sorry, we are already booked for Burn Jita weekend, find someone else", but made the fake negotiation over Catalyst bounties, making me believe that they work for me. So Noir didn't only take a one-time lucrative contract from Goons. Goons paid enough that worth not only burning every bridge towards me, but also taking a huge hit on their credibility. After all, who'd hire mercs who betrayed a high-profile client?
Let's add that random guys are discussing the story on Reddit:
OK, so far the post is a standard "scammed carebear cries and calls out the scammer" post that you could read in dozens in the "crime and punishment" EVE-O topic. Anything else here to see? Yes: that if you are a threat to the Goons, they pay you to stop being one. While they give their bullshit about space socialism and "power of the numbers", they actually fight with their wallets. When Black Legion caught a carrier fleet, they didn't ping for 1000 bombless bombers but paid approximately 800B to convert BL to their side in the Fountain war. Now when their losses to Marmite+Lemming are approaching a trillion (outdoing Asakai), they hired Noir, for approximately 20B upfront and 15B/month long term (if Aleks betrayed our partnership for less, he is a Cactusfrankie-level retard).
What does it mean? If you are leading a small gang PvP group, all you have to do is ganking Goons somewhere and soon a Goon diplo approaches with a fat offer to work for them instead. From there you'll be still doing what you'd do anyway (PvP) except you'll be killing N3/HERO/their renters and you won't have to rat ever again. So what are you waiting for? If you are in nullsec, off you go to Deklein to prove yourself to Goons, if you are in highsec, contact me and I give you an opportunity to kill enough Goons to make them hire you.
I'm just wondering when will the line CFC grunt ask the obvious question: if other people are getting multi-billion payments for protecting Goons, why am I getting a paplink for the same?
In such events "I didn't want this anyway" and "no shits given" is the standard procedure. I won't do that. Aleks was one of the very few people I trusted in EVE and when I realized his betrayal, I was upset and sad. So yes, "Gevlon is mad", op success here Goons. Like all mad carebears, I now swear that I'll spend every dime I have to destroy the Goons! Oh wait, I'm already spending every dime I make to destroy Goons. Also, I'm no longer mad as Marmites and Lemmings cheered me up.
PS: Noir is trying to save face with the nonsense claim of completing both contracts for the two sides in the same battle. But if you look at their killboard, you see that all their Goon "kills" are worthless whorings (or more specifically I couldn't find a useful kill in several pages). Let me explain: if someone goes GCC to gank, he has N seconds to live before Concord kills him. When the time is up, his ship becomes instantly jammed and then killed by Concord. It doesn't matter if he had full HP or he was damaged to 1% structure by players, he spent his N seconds ganking and then died. So the "killers" on the Concord mail had zero effect on the gank. There are only two ways to harm a ganker who is already on GCC: kill him before Concord does (this case he could spend less than N seconds ganking, decreasing his damage) or use ECM that makes him sit idly until Concord arrives. I didn't see a single Noir pilot in ECM ships, nor I found a kill on their killboard where the Noir guy used ECM. Same goes for suspects: when all Jita undock shoots the dumb Goon who had killright on a T3 and one of the 30+ killers is in Noir, do you really expect me to pay bounty for that? I couldn't find a single kill (though a few can exist as I did just manual killboard check) without Concord on it or more than a few % Noir damage. They flied interceptors which are probably the worst anti-gank ships in the game, but the best ships to whore on kills. This proves that they never intended to do any harm to CFC, therefore they never tried to fulfill the scam contract we negotiated.
Update: Hahaha, the idiot Aleks published our mails, saving me the trouble of deleting all the other mails and publish my mail API. As you can see I requested jamming GCC Goons. Can anyone find a single kill with a Noir guy listed with jammers (or jam-bonused ship)?
Update2: they indeed podded some CFC which hurts CFC, therefore deserves payment. (Ship whoring does not). I will pay that part when I have the killboard data or if Noir sends me a list of podkills.
77 comments:
Interesting, but rather expected. One of the major pillars of EVE is that backstabbing, betrayal, and scamming are the norm.
Players will build up a long-term reputation of "trust" then try to hit that major scam, etc for "story" or "reputation". I'm not saying that this was Noir's grand bow-out though.
It also goes to show how socially or group orientated this game is.
ISK, assets, anything in game doesn't amount to much when players are playing to game their opponents (metagame).
I mean, if you owned all assets, ISK, and SOV in the game, it doesn't amount to a thing as the rest of the players would continue to play (socially and metagame).
That's the one draw-back of emphasizing the individual/solo rational play in an MMO.
bad business for the merc's there is no way to kill someone and still protect them. It isn't possible. Sorry but "cool like noir" is not so cool now. Mercs in eve are like chibba you have only your rep to get paid on. The point I guess is that Noir did the ultimate merc thing (failing a contract in order to pick up a bigger contract). This won't kill noir but they will have a long long haul to recover and it can't be with their current ceo. He needs to step down admit it and turn noir over to someone who isn't tainted by the whole scam.
Merc's only have their history and word to live by and this damages the first and destroys the second.
Heck I like noir they are cool and fun, if I were noir line member I would be very upset.
Now do us the favor and lay out the terms of your contract so that it is perfectly clear that there is no way to kill someone and protect them at the same time (we know its not possible). I expect noir to be folded into cfc soon.
BL as you said took the silver and now are not trusted, rather they are seen with jaded eyes and only trusted as far as you can throw can of quafe in your quaters. BL has been working tirelessly to recover since fountain but the stain remains. Less so then when everone was calling them pets.
Bottom line is merc's are a huge part of eve and betrayls like this are to be expected even if they are disapointing.
Extreme betrayal of Noir...
It's like a double agent wanting to get paid after being discovered "Hey, I seemly worked a bit to your side. I deserve to being paid, even though I defected to the enemy!".
In the end, Noir was a double-crossing traitor...
That's... shabby. I want to hear their side of the story, but that's not good for Noir's reputation, at all.
RvB allied with the goons to maximize targets but there was no big push to take part. As a result, not a lot too part.
Frankly, Gevlon, I'd ask Powers. You know he reads your blog from time to time. Try getting a hold of him and talking to him like another human being, instead of continually casting him as one of the incarnations of pure evil.
If nothing else, this illustrates that social bonds have far more power than your money does. Especially when they're backed up by far, far more money over a far longer timer.
As for why the CFC line member isn't offended that Noir might get hired? Why should we be? Noir got a bunch of money. BFD. Money, especially when you fly in an organization like the CFC, is bullshit.
PVP losses are functionally free. For many of us, we make money on losses. It's entirely possible that some folks were making as much as 4M isk profit per catalyst they lost during BJ3 just on SRP.
You have a 'long history' with Noir, going back... 5 months? 5 months is not a long history. Noir goes back in EVE at least 5 years. I leave it to you to consider who out there might have a 5 year history with the leadership of Noir...
... and then consider why Noir might really not consider you a 'high profile' client.
Now, you say you paid Noir to camp the Jita gates in Scorpions this past weekend. What were the exact terms of the contract, Gevlon? Because here you are, accusing them of violating those terms. So, let's see them. Let's see if Noir actually violated the terms of their contract, or if they found a loophole.
Because believe me, Gevlon, if they found a loophole, and they exploited it for double pay... they have done exactly what legions (literally) of real-world mercs have done for thousands of years. That is how mercenaries operate.
So post the terms, and let's see if you're right, or you're just mad.
@Arrendis: "finding a loophole" is the ISK doubler defense. They are called scammers for a reason. They don't really expect to have return customers. Also, they get the money first. Imagine an ISK doubler who simply announce that you lost the doubling due to the fine print and THEN ask for your money!
The question is: who will hire Noir (beside Goons) after this.
And no, I won't ask Powers anything, since - like every Goon - all his words would be lies and deception.
"finding a loophole" is the ISK doubler defense. They are called scammers for a reason. They don't really expect to have return customers.
Finding a loophole is the behavior of every single for-profit corporation on the face of the Earth. They all seek to maximize their profits however they can. Every. Single. Way.
Loopholes in contracts, loopholes in regulations, all of it. They all do it. That's why class action lawsuits happen - and why so many of them never come to trial, and quietly go away.
As for Powers... you're the one who keeps insulting him and then getting pissed off when he plays you. If you try actually acting like an adult, and speaking to him directly, you might be surprised with how honest he can be with you.
After all, it's not like he has anything to lose. You've proven time again that you can't effectively hurt his operations, even when highly motivated to try.
@Arrendis: if I can't hurt his operations, he has zero reason to talk to me. Also, I doubt he has time, as he is too busy managing all his POCOs.
Also, real world corporations don't like bad press and settle quickly if their loophole seeking ends up on the media and make them look bad.
Well, Gevlon, if RvB is just a Goon front, then yes, he's still managing all of his POCOs, now isn't he?
Also, real world corporations don't like bad press and settle quickly if their loophole seeking ends up on the media and make them look bad.
Yes, they do - if they can't get the suit thrown out because hey, look - they didn't actually violate their contract. Happens far more often than you'd think, especially here in the US. If you'd like, contact me in-game and I can recommend a few decent lawyers for you to contact on that.
"What does it mean? If you are leading a small gang PvP group, all you have to do is ganking Goons somewhere and soon a Goon diplo approaches with a fat offer to work for them instead."
Good Guy Gevlon: gets scammed, tells you how to profit from it.
@arrendis.
Loopholes in contracts do exist.
It also means that those that are burned are unlikely to return; and those that read about it will think twice.
Alekseyev stated <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/246g3n/how_long_do_you_think_it_will_be_before_gevlon/ch4cufv#>I checked with the original employer (goons) to make sure he wouldn't have a problem with it and he said it was fine.</a>
This is fine; but ... where is the equivalent information for Gevlon as a second employer?
This looks and smells like a scam; whatever Noir's intentions were.
for those wondering the exact contract terms, our side, etc here's a blog post grounded in the reality of fully copy/pasted mails and plenty of killboard links.
http://noirmercs.com/content.php?3455-Burn-Goblin
We're ready for Goblin to unburn a bridge whenever he's ready. But I doubt he will apologize let alone pay what he owes us.
@Alekseyev: you're right. I should pay you, as your own blog screenshot says: "I can pay a fixed fee or after jammed Goons," Could you please link me the Goons you jammed?
@Alekseyev
'I'll accept a bounty contract on Goon suicide gankers but Scorps and BB's are a bit pedestrian for us. Much prefer to do things with EAF and be more mobile. But we do things a little differently as you know ;p '
EAF are electronic attack frigates aren't they and they never used them?
Also his post confirms he never discussed working for the goons with Gevlon. So I guess the conclusion is that Noir using as a trusted mercenary corp is over. Use them and expect to be screwed over.
I should pay you, as your own blog screenshot says: "I can pay a fixed fee or after jammed Goons," Could you please link me the Goons you jammed?
Except while that was your initial offering, Gevlon, that clearly wasn't the final deal between you. You agreed on flat fees of 2M per Catalyst (meaning you're paying out 2M per 1.5M isk destroyer - nice.), 5 per Brutix, 10 per Talos (I don't think we used Brutix this year, but there were some talos fleets), and 20% of pod values.
That's the deal that's been publicly shown - unless you've got further communications with different specs.
The contract's also explicitly for shooting CFC members after they go GCC - the very thing you are currently calling 'worthless whoring'. Your initial offer of a contract for "jamming" was declined.
So, from here, it looks like they did exactly what you hired them to do. You also didn't include any 'no-compete' clause or other protection of your interests.
In the future, when hiring mercenaries, I suggest using a far more comprehensive contract.
Foo:
This is fine; but ... where is the equivalent information for Gevlon as a second employer?
Gevlon's offered contract didn't stipulate any non-competition or other conflicting goals. Nothing he asked for in those mails shows any conflict of interest.
Keep in mind, Noir's contract w/Goons said they'd ally - it didn't say they'd protect the Goon fleets.
What does that mean? That means Noir gains a bunch of potential war targets, without any obligation to actually bail CFC gankfleets out. The intent there is obvious: put more 'hostiles' in the target systems, and Marmite and Lemmings have less incentive to show up. And judging by the fact that really... they didn't... I'd say it worked.
And, since Gevlon is no longer actually affiliated with Darwin's Lemmings, there's no conflict of interest. Noir is not responsible for Gevlon hiring two different organizations with absolutely no requirements that they not shoot one another.
Speaking as a Noir rank and file pilot the two contracts surprisingly not in conflict, effectively we had the option to shoot at two groups of players during burn jita event.
- If you listen to DOW podcast 73 which was recorded just before the start of BJ3 its clear what was Alek's intention and that he was under the belief that both contracted parties were aware of this agreement.
- During BJ3 when it became clear that you were upset with us our onfield / online directors did on numerous occasions attempt to contact you however you just blocked them. We raised the issue internally and continued to execute our orders as mandated.
- As for shooting goons we did shoot at a lot of them, (approximately 2000 odd) yes concord are on a large proportion of them but I can assure you we did pursue them aggressively while entangling with 5-10 Lemming pilots that were present in Jita.
Specifically we hunted them in their safe spots as they formed up for ganks killing suspects and activating kill rights, those kills are on the killboard. I admit its not easy to find them among-st the freighter ganks.
- Again as a Noir rank and file what wasn't clear to me at the time was your relationship with Darwins Lemmings. As an infrequent reader of your blog I was under the impression that Darwins Lemmings was just another merc outfit / Marmite training alliance hired by yourself and not under your direct control.
@Gevlon
"you're right. I should pay you, as your own blog screenshot says: "I can pay a fixed fee or after jammed Goons," Could you please link me the Goons you jammed?"
I'm a little confused here Gevlon. Are you saying that you are actively refusing to pay them even though you technically owe them because you think they went against your contract? Or are you saying that as far as you are concerned there's nothing to pay as they achieved no kills under the terms of your contract?
It would seem to me that if you were trying to claim the latter, their killboard shows that this is not the case. In pods alone you would owe them a fair bit. If you were trying to claim the former, nowhere in your contract mails do I see you mention anything about not shooting Lemmings or Marmite.
Overall, it seems like you are upset that Noir did what Noir do, which is accept mercenary contracts like any merc corp does, and for that you are refusing to pay. On top of that, rather than discuss it privately with Noir, you did you usual "Fuck you! I'll blog a whole bunch of propaganda!" which never works out well for you.
PRAISE THE LORD BROTHERS! The day we've been waiting for almost a year has came! Lucas Kell is right on my blog.
I forgot the pods. Yes, killing CFC pods indeed damages CFC (while doing 0.2% damage on a Concorded catalyst does not) and deserves proper payment. As soon as I have the killboard data, I'll look for CFC pods killed by Noir. If it takes too long for him, I unignore Aleks so he can send me a list of notable pods and they'll be paid.
Please note however that it's not me who aired our contract. Goons (the target) knew about it in real time.
@Anonymous Noir pilot: can you see anything in our published mails that indicate that I know about the other contract?
My affiliation with Darwin's Lemmings was unclear WHEN YOU KILLED MY ALT MULTIPLE TIMES and even joked about it on local?
@Arrendis: while they did not officially accepted to defend CFC fleets, they practically did that. I got podded by them when I got DingoGS in another bumping battleship in deep armor. It could only happen if they shared fleet or at least a channel where Goons could provide Noir intel.
@Arrendis: while they did not officially accepted to defend CFC fleets, they practically did that. I got podded by them when I got DingoGS in another bumping battleship in deep armor. It could only happen if they shared fleet or at least a channel where Goons could provide Noir intel.
Or if Noir, being valid war targets of anyone who was a war target of theirs, did the same thing we did, and had neutral alts in NPC corps playing spotter on all the gates for 2 systems out.
If they had even 3 brain cells to rub together (and they have more than that), then they had those scouts, and had no problem being able to see when your alt - a Lemmings alt, perhaps, and so a valid WT for Noir? - made yourself a relatively stationary target by shooting at Dingo.
Yes, killing CFC pods indeed damages CFC (while doing 0.2% damage on a Concorded catalyst does not) and deserves proper payment.
Except your agreed-upon deal doesn't specify that you'd only pay for CFC catalysts not being targeted by CONCORD. Having specified firing on the CFC ships after they gain a GCC, it would seem obvious that the majority of the GCC-active catalysts in-space at any given time would be getting shot by CONCORD.
Because after the gank, the pods bounce until they can dock, then dock up and wait out the GCC.
@Arrendis: no matter how you want to twist it, the two contracts were mutually exclusive.
Lemmings (including my alt) were killing Goons, so killing Lemmings helped Goons.
GCC gankers can only be harmed by jamming, while jamming does little against wartargets. So they either flied ships that are good against Goons or ships that are good against Lemmings.
It was not possible to fulfill both contracts, one of them naturally was breached. From the fact that they discussed the details with Goons but not with me, it's clear who did they choose to scam.
Haven't they already stated that they were under contract to kill GSF war targets? I assume here that you tried to kill DingoGS in a Lemming alt, which had wardecced GSF.
Can you show us which part of your contract with Noir. you feel they breached?
@Babar: they didn't ECM a single Goon despite the contract was especially for that.
Hmm. It seems if I hire Noir to defend my POS from an attacker the attacker could then pay Noir to destroy my POS if it wasn't covered in the original contract. And they would do it!
@Babar
the published emails clearly say
"I can pay a fixed fee or after jammed Goons, as they die in 10 seconds to Concord, with you on the kill, see my test kill: "
JAMMED,
now show us the attempts to jam on the kill mails...
Noir even included EAF in their emails on the negotiations.
show us the AEF ships on kills...
so Gevlon's opening email wants JAMS and they settle on 2/5/10m, he doesnt want to pay for what he didnt get?
All I see here is a merc corp that tried to be clever, and failed.
Perhaps they did not discuss the contracts with you because they could anticipate your (predictable) response?
Goons had no problem with them shooting both sides...can you say the same, if they had approached you?
@Anonymous: "keeping someone uninformed to avoid his predictable response" is the textbook definition of scamming.
By the way my response would have been:
- "will you fly ECM ships?"
- "no, we'll fly interceptors"
- "You can't harm gankers in interceptors"
- "But we can pod them!"
- "20% pod value OK?"
- "Yes"
- "Deal!"
A happy customer here! Of course if they'd do that, they'd fail their first contact as I would have informed Lemmings about the strong Goon defense and told everyone to quit the corp during Burn Jita and jam or alpha Goons from NPC corp ships.
This case, you'd be reading a "Noir Scammed me" post on themittani.com from Powers.
@Anony 10.36
I would have liked to see Noir try to double cross the goons. But they didn't they ran running to them like a little puppy asking their permission. Apparently they only viewed the contract 'not in conflicted' on Gevlons side or why did they ask the goons for permission?
"Goons had no problem with them shooting both sides..."
Goons were dead anyway and knew it. Concord, remember. Why should they care if noir whore on the kills but make no real difference?
Perhaps noir didn't specifically break the letter of the agreement but I think it's fair to expect a hired gun to not actively work against your interests while in your employ.
I think it is just a misunderstood and Noir didn't fail on purpose. I read published conversation by Noir: http://noirmercs.com/content.php?3455-Burn-Goblin
Contract was about jamming Goons and killing pods, but it is clear to me that Noir understood it in other way: to kill Goons/pod. And they were doing it greatly, so they do not get why Gevlon is mad.
I think that Gevlon also made a mistake, he should contact Noir during Burn Jita when he noticed that something strange is going on and resolve problem then, instead of goind full rage mode.
As Kell pointed out, part of contract has been done - destroying pods and for that Noir should get paid. Calling names on Alekseyev is just childish in this case.
Next time everyone should make certain that both sides understand contract in the same way, maybe by more detailed description?
By the way: compare the scan resolution on the Kitsune (EAF - 520mm), Hawk (AF - 575mm), and Crow (INT - 860mm).
What does this mean?
It means that when trying to lock up destroyers as they go GCC and CONCORD starts shooting them, the crow will lock and kill before the kitsune can lock and jam - and the BB/Scorp will take even longer to lock.
Jammers against mobile groups of suicide-gankers have the problem of 'I have to have time to lock them up first', which is one of the big reasons neutral scanners and bumpers provide target warp-tos.
So your plan to jam out the catalysts? Not really all that effective.
Took me five mins of actually looking at the killboard to see this, and come to a conclusion.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=23193405
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=23193618
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=23192445
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=23191847
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=23193382
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=23189285
These killmails prove that they were actually hunting, and killing CFC gankers at safe spots before ganks happened, and this is just what I found in five mins of looking at the last 4 pages of the 25 pages of killmails the event covers.
This is
@Anonymous: my bad. I checked their killboard on Saturday. It is possible that after I put them on ignore they noticed the trouble and started to actually do the contract.
You are right, these kills will be identified and paid when I have the database (or Noir sends a list).
@Arrendis: Goons were pretty bad. They landed 20 km away from the target and approached. A scorpion could safely pre-lock them and just activate jammers when they go GCC.
Also, a Crow can instalock a Catalyst and then what? Even a zero-tank Cata has 3K EHP, it will take a minute for a Crow to kill it.
"@Anonymous Noir pilot: can you see anything in our published mails that indicate that I know about the other contract? " << No and I won't be able to produce any information due to Opsec related to contract negotiations. However having an conversation about it in a podcast before the fact with known blogger isn't being clever.
"My affiliation with Darwin's Lemmings was unclear WHEN YOU KILLED MY ALT MULTIPLE TIMES and even joked about it on local?"
I don't know how many times you're alt was killed before someone twigged that it was actually you. We had just assumed you were there for the fun of burn jita which is lets face it shoot anything flashy.
There had been plenty of smack talk in local from Doc Know to NMG. during the day, best rebuttal is shoot as many of them as possible.
When it became apparent to us you were upset about it we tried convoying you to figure out what the issue was but we were blocked. At that point it was raised internally. You must remember that we hardly ever know who has contracted us just the targets of the contract.
After reading the story from both sides:
1. Reading letter by letter, Noir did not break the contract. There were assumptions made by Gevlon which were not written in the mails. Such as an assumption 'this work shall aid the work of Lemmings which will happen at the same time'. However this assumption apparently was never written down.
2. The association of Gevlon with Lemmings must have been known by some of Noir members. Thus accepting the second contract should have raised some questions and prompted them to contact Gevlon.
-Did they break the contract? -No
-Did they provide good service? -No
Wow, what a messy situation.
As I read it, the original agreement with Noir/Gevlon was:
- Noir jams ships whilst CONCORD blasts them. The gankers die no matter what, but the jamming limits their damage output.
- Bounties will be based off a successful jam and bigger ships would get bigger bounties.
- Nothing was specifically mentioned about bounties for killing the gankers (although this should probably have been clarified before Burn Jita kicked off).
- Pod kills would get 20% of value as a bounty.
Now, that's all well and good, and pretty straight forward. But if Noir had a second employer that was already set up in advance, I have a few questions I'd love to get answered by Noir:
- Who was the original employer? We know Gevlon was the second, why won't you tell us who the first was?
- Why was the first employer informed about a potential conflict of interests because of the nature of the contracts, but Gevlon not told "hey, we'll be allies of CFC on that date - are you cool with that?"?
- Was the first employer specifically told that Gevlon was the holder of the second contract? If so, why was Gevlon not told who the first employer was?
- Why was Gevlon's test kill left off the Noir communicate? If it's a typo, can it be edited in for clarity - if it's intentionally left out, can Gevlon please let us know the kill mail link?
- Where can I find the full contract for Noir and the second employer, since Noir keep track of all their contracts?
Now, I don't actually see anything specifically wrong with fulfilling both contracts myself. Noir are mercenaries after all. They could split into 2 groups - have half ECM Goons and have the other half blast away at Marmite/Lemmings/whoever.
But I do find it very one-sided with how the handling of the two contracts and their employers were communicated with. Understandable that Gevlon flipped out over it.
Going forward though, I believe that Gevlon would best to now pay for any jamming kills Noir actually pulled off, as well as any pods kills. Then, avoid using Noir again.
I know that should I ever need a merc corp, I'll avoid them myself, for the sole reason that they lack transparency and would not let me know of any potential conflicts of interest.
Accepting contracts from both sides is something you simply don't do a as a merc.
There was a recent Noir podcast that aired around the BJ start. They were joking a bit about working for both sides. http://declarationsofwar.com/episodemp3/episode73.mp3 (at around 37mins)
Alekseyev knew pretty well that this a conflict of interest. Since they didn't inform you about the goon contract, you could hardly object. It was foreseeable that you wouldn't be alright with them working for the Goons, hence you weren't told.
I don't know if the Noir guys are just ignorant/stupid about this or if it is goon money inspired malice. Powers being that well informed about the whole thing (your contract especially) and now arguing on their behalf speaks volumes.
Pretty shabby to say the least. I wouldn't give them a dime either.
@Dunamis: the test kill was one of my Jan 12 kills, they are all the same https://zkillboard.com/kill/35889601/
We can all blowhard about how gritty, jaded and unattached mercs are, and how clever it is to take advantage of a contract that might not have been watertight, but at the end of the day good faith actually matters in business.
It matters a great deal more in an anarchy like EVE where there ultimately exists no contract-enforcement authority to condemn or clear your behaviour. Everything depends on reputation, determined by laymen through common sense instead of legalistic lenses: spirit, not letter.
It's a double-cross. You can be quite sure that Noir has taken a big reputation hit over this, in the eyes of a good handful of client-caliber people.
@Mr Z
Were EAF as specified in the emails/contract negotiations?
Was permission asked for to break the confidentiality of Gevlons contract?
Were facts that effected the contract deliberately witheld?
I wouldn't say Noir acted like scammers but I would say they ARE scammers. The best bit now after messing up their contract and reputation they now threaten Gevlon. Scary!
Just the mere fact people are asking the question if they failed or not means they failed. It is a black mark that will always be there and people will always think twice about what they really mean when they agree to do something.
@Gevlon, thank you for the link.
The jams definitely show up all ok then, so I would still pay out for any of those kills, as originally agreed.
It's a shame really, because if they'd been as open with you as with whomever employer #1 was, everyone would know where they stood.
Now, it just looks like they're biased towards that entity. I would assume a merc's loyalty is not to single employer but to ISK and maintaining their reputation as fair and/or trustworthy.
As Esteban says, that reputation is what keeps a merc's customers coming.
I still stand by the fact that I don't see anything wrong with their actions per se, as long as they had been up front with you to begin with regards to the potential conflict of interests. It's almost to be expected they sometimes have issues with this - so I can't believe this isn't a normal thing for them.
That key point is where they crossed the line. I wouldn't exactly call it a scam (technically speaking, they did uphold their end of the contract), but it's definitely very underhand that they shared intel with one party and not the other.
Poor show, Noir. Poor show.
Well more information does help. Unfortunatly for Noir it doesn't do them any good.
A: it is clear that they were angling the contract talks with goblin so that they could get paid by both.
B: You should never have to ask a merc "hey before I hire you, please let me know if there are any other contracts that could in any way conflict with me hiring you" Thats on the merc to say "look I will do what you want but you "NEED" to know that we are also working for X.
C: the audio log is clear: Alek "KNEW" that he was working for both sides. The mental gymnastics required to do this is somewhat cool (have to admit): Ok I get paid to shoot you (goon) and you will pay me to shoot them (lemmings and marimite). Again this shows that alek knew what the conflict was and on purpose steered goblin away from his "intended" purpose. So that "technically" Noir could accept both contracts.
D: and here is the real problem: Alek had no problem discussing one clients contract with another client (alek let the goons know about goblins contract) but not the other way (telling goblin about the goon contract).
Summary: Alek created a situation where "technically" he was able to profit from the people he was supposed to shoot and protect at the same time. The big problem was the partial disclosure. We understand that had he disclosed his goon contract the way he did goblins, there is no way goblin plays along. Still no matter how you slice it, goblin needs to pay for services rendered. and Noir needs to come clean about the shady business practice of partial disclosure.
Clearly Noir. did not act in good faith. I imagine that the list of people that will risk hiring them just got a lot shorter, I know I wont be one of them any more.
Whether NOIR are mercs or not is not important!
They cannot accept contracts protecting AND shooting a customer at the same time.
Granted, Gevlon did a bad job not specifying under what conditions the payments/bounties will be earned, but either way this ruins the reputation of Noir.
Alekseyevs argument that they are mercs and that the two contracts did not interfere with each other, then he clearly knows shit about EVE, RoE and good faith.
Imagine the following situation:
A gang jumps through a gate with the intention to kill goons, their WTs. A gang of NOIR is at the same gate traing to protect Goons from WTs.
Goons go GCC while being attacked by their WTs. Now, Noir start defending Goons and killing their WTs, missing out on a large number of Killmails for which the bounty contract was intended.
Alekseyev would argue: Both contracts fulfilled.
A right minded person would say:
Get lost SWAG faggot, that was very inefficient, a little bit km Wwhoring but truly ruining the WTs ops.
Gevlons contract was intended to make BJ3 more difficult for Goons by giving an extra incentive to NOIR to shoot goons indisciminately.
They didn't do that, their killmail whoring was just a feeble alibi. They greatly underperformed as they were already hired by goons.
So, all in all, accepting this contract by Alekseyev was just a scam.
I know which merc corp I will never hire if I need one.
NOIR is on my blacklist.
Every thing here is a huge confusion that Alek have create. It's clear for me that NMG have to be paid for the contract, but as goblin ask it, for the ship jam and the pod kill. If Alek don't say to is corpmate to JAM ship, sorry for them, but it's because they have a bad director (if he is realy honest).
After all, with or without contract with goon, if Noir do the job ask (Ship jam, pod kill), they have to receive paiment.
As we can read in the ''burn Goglin'' post of Alek itself, Goblin NEVER ask for ship kill. He only want the pod kill, and the ship jam. No jam = no pay for ship, pod kill = pay for pod, simply as that.
Alek also make Noir lose lot of reputation by not mention to goblin that he have a contract with Goon for protect them. As goblin, i would be realy mad if a corp i pay have a contract with the group i contract again in the same time. Specially if they do without say anything to me before the agreement.
By the way, i thing i will not contract Noir as long Alek is director to them. Even is own post work again him...
Sorry for my english...
Shooting @ 10-15 WT Lemmings of a 450 man alliance is not protecting GFC by any stretch of the imagination. Lets face it if Lemmings had turned up in force, or if Marmite had decide not to camp Amarr undock they could of easily pushed us off the field during that weekend. With the exception of a plucky few the others balked at the possibility of facing CFC. So saying that we were paid to "protect" Goons is rubbish.
As far as shooting Goons I pretty sure we have as many Goon kills without concord as we do lemmings kills not including pods though scanning down their SS fleets and engaging either criminals or activating war targets. It got to a point that they were to ganking our tackle or rotating safe spots.
Finally there is a lot of talk about not hiring NMG by people in this thread. Lets be frank I very much doubt any of you would / could be able to hire mercs in any shape of form. Probably because you don't understand what mercs do or are about or are in a position where they make sense.
Lemmings fight a guerilla war. Our tactics was what I did myself: solo or very small gang hits a fat Goon target (bumper battleship, FC and so on). Goons couldn't counter it as forming 50+ guys against 2 is quite boring. This is why they hired Noir to protect them.
So, you're still filtering out the comments where I went through more or less line by line and demonstrated how you were wrong. I wish I could say I'm surprised, but I really did at least hope you were bigger than that, Gevlon.
Bottom line is: you offered them a jamming contract, and they rejected that contract. Here's Alek's counter-offer:
How about 5m/kill, 10m for pods? GSF only or all participating CFC forces?
You balked (wisely) at the idea of paying 5M isk per kill on a 1.5M isk destroyer, and made the following counter:
Hi, 5M/kill is great, but not for destroyers. How about 2M for Catalyst, 5M for Brutix, 10M for Talos.
Note: kill. You also offer to pay reimbursement if Noir will reconsider their refusal to use scorpions, but there's no stipulation at this point for 'you must attempt to jam'.
Then there's the quick back-and-forth over pod prices, and finally, from you:
So do we have a deal?
2M for a Cata, 5M for a Brutix, 10M for a Talos and 20% value for every pod of any CFC member
The last mention of jamming was you describing your plans for ECM-burst frigates. How'd that go, by the way?
As for why Alek didn't tell you about the contract w/Powers... I doubt he told Powers 'Gevlon wants to hire me', either.
What he probably did was right after your initial email, he went to his extant employer and said 'we've been offered another contract for the weekend that technically doesn't conflict, but since it would have us shooting at you, and you've already paid your retainer, I wanted to make you aware that a possibility exists that we'll be shooting your guys after they go GCC.'
As for why Alek hasn't identified Powers (even though Powers more or less has)? That's pretty simple: Powers paid. Alek himself says it pretty clearly: you lost your expectation of confidentiality when you broke the deal and refused to pay them. The client who did not break their contract retains his confidentiality.
Your contract was sloppy. It was a bad contract. I'll say again what I said in the first comment you refused to put up: it was the kind of contract I'd expect from 'Morons & Slackers'. It was too broad, too vague, and didn't actually outline your expectations.
If you are going to hire a contractor, anything you don't specify, you are leaving up to their discretion. Period. Anything you don't want left to their discretion, put in the contract. No-compete clauses are common among us freelancers, for example. You didn't use one here.
As for all the folks hurfing about 'I know I'll never hire Noir!' - you were never going to, anyway.
Look, let's be blunt: Noir's been doing the merc thing for at least five years. I think they have a clue as to where their bread is buttered, and what kind of contractual shenanigans they can reasonably pull off.
This time, all they had to do was exactly what the contract stated. And that's what they did. You're angry because they didn't do things you didn't hire them to do.
Maybe you thought you hired them to do those things. That's certainly understandable, and if I thought someone hadn't done what I hired him to do, I'd be pretty pissed, too.
But you didn't. That's not what's in the final, agreed-upon deal. It's a bad contract. Don't do that again.
Hell, Gevlon, again, hit me up in-game, I'll give you examples of better (but probably still not air-tight) contracts for comparison.
Don't be so informal in your business dealings. It only fucks you.
If Noir was a computer, than I would say they have completed their contract with you in a literal fashion, only.
The problem is Noir is comprised of people who have a brain, and a history with you. They certainly understood your intentions, based on past interaction with you. The fact that they purposely ignored "relevant knowledge" means Noir as a merc group cannot be trusted to competently complete a contract. That's pretty bad.
My advice is that you pay them, and let them go. Cease the campaign against them, because Noir has done enough to damage their own reputation by posting their "agreement" with you on their blog. Quite damaging and sad. It makes them appear to incompetent idiots.
Remove any negativity associated with your name by paying the morons (Noir). Then just walk away and leave them with egg on their face. It won't be long before they backstab another paying client.
@Arrendis: no I did not specify that he must jam. I also did not specify that he must breath while playing EVE. I think I can expect Noir to know basic game mechanics.
He already acknowledged that he asked the PERMISSION of the target to take my contract. Even if he did not mention my name, it was pretty obvious who wants to hire mercs against Goons.
You know ISK doublers use the same defense: he didn't followed the rules to the letter. It's obvious that I hired Noir against Goons. It's also obvious that they did nothing that would be against the will of the Goons, SINCE HE ASKED THEIR PERMISSION.
Maybe I screwed up the contract. This case Aleks can turn to the space-court and sue me. This is the only way he'll see money from me.
No, the filthy weasel won't even get the pod money he actually deserves. I figured out a much better plan for my money.
@Arrendis
If you argument is still that Gelvon didn't write an "air tight" contract, then I suggest you add the following disclaimer to Noir's service.
**Warning** We at Noir are quite particular about the wording in our contracts. We look for every opportunity to take your money and fuck you over. Use our services at your own risk.
Maybe I screwed up the contract. This case Aleks can turn to the space-court and sue me. This is the only way he'll see money from me.
And that's fine - but you're still the one who broke the contract. Say he negotiated in bad faith if you like. That's probably true. But he performed his contractual duties.
And that's what a merc lives or dies by, so to speak. That's why the people who actually hire them for bigger work look at - because they know to put everything into the contract.
Why? Because you cannot trust a mercenary to do anything not in the contract. They're mercenaries. That's what they do.
They do not fight for loyalty or honor - the nature of their profession requires they have none. Saying you were 'betrayed' by a mercenary who adhered to the letter of the contract and did what they were hired to do is like saying 'I bought this new corvette, but the girls didn't flock to me like they did in the commercial'.
That's not what the commercial actually promised. It promised a corvette. You got the corvette. End of story.
So if you refuse to pay them, that's certainly your prerogative. But if they do enact some kind of retribution, understand that they're not doing it because they're 'goon pets', or they were told to do it by Powers. They're doing it because you made a bad contract, and then refused to pay what even you say you legitimately owe.
Anon:
If you argument is still that Gelvon didn't write an "air tight" contract, then I suggest you add the following disclaimer to Noir's service.
I'm not in Noir. I'm in TNT. I'm not a mercenary at all. In RL, however, I am a freelancer, with numerous friends who are also freelancers in various fields, and some who are lawyers who specialize in contract law.
Gevlon's argument would be laughed out of any legal or arbitration venue. He contracted for specific services, which were delivered. He did not in any way specify non-competition, nor prohibit any behaviors. Now he's refusing to pay. It's really that simple.
A comparable example would be... I accept a contract to write an article for a magazine, touting the benefits of a product one of their advertising clients sells. At the same time, I accept another contract to write a review in another, higher-profile magazine of exactly the same product - and my impartial review of the product savages it, because it's bad.
If there's no no-compete clause, the first magazine probably can't do shit, no matter how butt-hurt their clients are that the same byline is trashing their product.
@Arrendis: and you'd be right. But it's EVE, with no courts. The only way to make your client pay is to make him satisfied, so he wants to return later.
We can agree that I would never use the services of Noir again. So giving them money is just throwing it out the window.
Actually it's worse: it would put a huge "scam me" sign on my head and the disciples of Erotica 1 would have a competition who can write better contract to get my money while giving nothing in return.
@ Noir reps: BS on mutally exclusive as evidenced by your posts.
Had the contract been mutally exclusive (as suggested by NOIR) then there was no reason to contact the cfc about goblins contract.
You show up and start shooting goons and when the goons complain you say "no you only hired us to shoot lemmings" "you didn't hire use not to shoot you". The fact that Alek went to the goons to request their "permission" shows that he knew they were not mutally exclusive.
@ arrendis lets look at your example with the articles.
to make it apples to apples you need to add something:
1: you took the job to write the hack article first
2: you took the job to write the nice article second
3: you informed the publisher of the hack job article of your nice article but then failed to tell the smaller publisher of your prior contract.
Legally your clear, but who gives a rats ask. You say you are in the business, how far do you think your career would go with you writing articles that off set each other? And then ask who would hire you to do something knowing that you could be doing the opposite at the same time. That would be like siskle giving a movie a thumbs up on his tv show and then giving it a thumbs down in his newspaper collum. Had he done that no one would read him and no one would trust his opinion (because which opinion do you trust?)
Have to give it to the Goons, contracting NOIR was a pretty smart move. Not only did they hurt you, but also hurt NOIR.
My bet would be that the whole reason they hired NOIR was to bring bad blood between the two of you, knowing that it would certainly piss you off.
As it seems Goons don't have to worry about NOIR kicking their asses ever again.
Or it tells other mercenary groups that you understand that when you screw up and write a contract that doesn't give you want you want, you will still honor your deals.
Because not paying a merc group that actually did complete its contracted services tells other merc groups 'I do not honor my contracts' - and it makes it less likely that the competent, reputable groups will deal with you.
This is one of those situations where taking the bullet now makes you bulletproof later.
You're losing the forest for the trees. This isn't the REAL scam. This is the setup for the scam.
Noir doesn't WANT you to pay. They WANT an excuse to fulfill their other (scam) contract -- protecting the goons long term. If you don't pay, they can claim that they are getting "revenge" (as they already foreshadowed in the emails post) and hide that they are really breaking the long-term contract with you to take up with the goons.
I would say to pay them, and hold them to the original long term contract. That forces them to go public with their betrayal for all to see, rather than hiding it in the smoke.
Anon:
How would my career go? Judging by the examples of people who've done exactly that... pretty damned well. Probably even lead to TV punditry.
Why, I could rant and rail about how horrible and evil it is for someone to accept government money in order to buy food, then the very next day, defend the right of some rich asshole to not pay for the use of federal land, or praise the smart business sense of large corporations for taking government handouts they don't need!
Also: an impartial review of something is not a 'hack' piece.
@Arrendis: I do NOT want the reputation that if you find a loophole in the contract I still pay you.
I want the reputation of "if you act in good faith, I act in good faith, if you screw me over, you get..." wait for tomorrows post, I cooked up something nice for this scammer filth!
@Phelps: good point. Probably Goons doesn't want to go public with their long term contract (exactly because of the bolded text in the post) and want Noir to act in "revenge".
However I learned something during the RvB war: enemies are easier to defeat then settle with. RvB got enough beating and this time they only protected Goons formally, without forming up. Soon Noir will follow them.
Sorry but RvB likes the hurting .. we are an masochistic bunch .. Would not give Noir anything but you are in an catch 22 situation .. you don't pay goons win .. if you pay you are screwed ...
Sorry I actually like most of your posts and love you for all the content you provide for RvB but this is an messed up situation ...
Lisbeth M Farnsworth RvB
I do NOT want the reputation that if you find a loophole in the contract I still pay you.
So you publicize the incident. (You've done that.) You do your level best to make sure everyone knows that you feel you were screwed over by the contractor. Hell, get every little scrap of revenge you can. But you make sure to honor your commitments.
That's how you develop a reputation for being someone who holds up his end of the deal, but shouldn't be fucked with.
@Arrendis: Jita local is full of people publicizing ISK doublers and they are still in business (maybe under a new name). They will stop scamming if they stop getting money.
@Lisbeth: I found a way out, see tomorrows post
Jita local is full of people publicizing ISK doublers and they are still in business
And that's a different business model than mercenaries. I know you like to equate anyone you feel is doing ill to you to Jita scammers, but they're not the same.
Stop trying to apply one label - and one response - to everything. Stop trying to turn a rusted nut with a hammer. Learn to use a damned wrench. Appropriate tool for the job.
and the point goes unaddressed
Alesk knew it was a conflict because he told one side about the others contract.
Had there been no conflict he had no reason to tell goons he was going to shoot them.
Of course I could only imagin what would have happened then lol
Anon:
and the point goes unaddressed
Alesk knew it was a conflict because he told one side about the others contract.
Had there been no conflict he had no reason to tell goons he was going to shoot them.
Of course I could only imagin what would have happened then lol
Actually, that's not something you can say at this point, for a very simple reason:
You don't have the full details of the other contract. For all you know, the original contract required Noir to inform their client if they were offered other contracts during the same time period. I know I'd require that - it gives me the chance to outbid the competition.
Nobody's saying Gevlon shouldn't be pissed - he obviously feels like he got taken for a ride here, so sure, be pissed. But at the same time, he should recognize the behaviors that led to it, and more - recognize the behaviors that prevent repetition, and recognize the potential for unintended blowback that exists in his planned response.
Gevlon evaluates every situation he finds himself in as if nobody has ever been there before. He has never been in a situation where there is not historical precedent and a massive body of evidence to say 'if you do X, Y will result'.
Then he gets mad when doing X results in Y. This is not successful behavior.
@Arrendis: there is one and only one thing that can prevent repetition of such scam: hit the scammer hard.
Please note that "massive body of evidence" and practically every commenter told that I should settle with RvB. Instead I went all out on them, both in-game sending my mercs on them and on the blog tarnish their name at the point that hurt them most: their newbie friendly ethos.
Look who was right: they are broken, they couldn't send an able bodied fleet against Lemmings, Goons have to hire Noir.
I will do the same here: I will tarnish the reputation of Noir as scammers and hit them in game too. Give me 2 or 3 months and they will be in no better shape than RvB.
Historical precedents mean "Tom, Dick and Harriett did X and got Y". You say "you won't fare any better, surrender to the customs". I say "I will succeed where Tom, Dick and Harriett failed".
Here, everyone else suggests "accept that you weren't careful enough with contracting and they were smart to screw you over". What I will do is crushing these disciples of Erotica 1.
I'm confused. You claim that Lemmings are "your people," yet a few months ago you quit being a part of the organization (you didn't want that alliance anyway).
So which is it? Are you a social, playing with and as a part of an alliance? Or are you not a moron and slacker, playing solo in an NPC corp with no social connection to increase opportunity costs?
Wait, so RvB doesn't form up in numbers for a voluntary event Burn Jita, and you take that as evidence that both alliances are in shambles?
What exactly where they fighting you over? A Mutual Defense pact w/CONDI over POCOs? The same pocos you're not attacking any longer, so they don't need to defend them?
Has RvB continued to do RvB's normal activities? You know, shooting each other? If not, then you might have a case. But if they have, then you're just deluding yourself.
Apparently Alek now claims that the other employer was paying them to kill both goons and the people killing goons so it seems Noir wanted paying twice to kill goons.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4533629#post4533629
"When NMG is hired to do a job, whatever that job may be, there are parameters. Those parameters differ with every contract. ... At the end of the contract, the true test of a mercenary's worth is how pleased the employer is. "
Taken from: http://noirmercs.com/entry.php?64-What-is-the-True-Measure-of-a-Mercenary-s-Worth
As we can clearly see, from Noir's own mouth, their true worth is zero. At least they are honest.
I still don't understand how disclosing contract doesn't indicate a conflict of interest. If there was no conflict then why disclose it? Why ask the other party if you can accept the second contract if there is no conflict?
Clearly aleske saw a conflict and resolved it by disclosing a contract to a third party (in fact the party the contract was intended to harm).
I am in M&A business in RL. Our contracts never specify that if I represent one client, I can't at the same time represent the other side. However if we even once would represent both sides on the same deal, the business would be over the next minute. The client expects full loyalty and best efforts if he is paying me. Same goes for lawyers, auditors, etc.
It's impossible to write down every clause in contract. Some things are simply obvious. In this case the mercenaries should have either selected one side, or should have disclosed their conflict of interest and got approval from both sides.
Arrendis and other space-nerds, don't talk shit if you don't know how trust business works.
IO is right. This is ultimately a conflict of interest issue, which is illegal pretty much anyplace that has contract law. There is an affirmative duty to inform all sides (meaning, they have to go out and make sure everyone knows, not wait for them to ask) when a conflict of interest arises.
Noir has screwed the pooch. They had a conflict of interest, and instead of disclosing it, they self-dealt based on it. In pretty much any country in the world, that is fraud. Straight up.
This is why mercenaries in Eve need some sort of brokering firm. Escrow, bonding, and if a merc breaks the rules and won't make it right, take the money the broker has been making and use it to hire other mercs to burn them to the ground.
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