Greedy Goblin

Thursday, January 30, 2014

The POS expansion

WH people and industrialists are demanding fixing - or rather rewriting - the whole POS (or replacement structures) code for long. CCP refuses, for a simple reason: those who use POS-es have already learned to live with them, and by the fact that they still use POS-es they prove that the situation isn't that bad. On the other hand those who don't use POS-es have little reason to do so, so fixing the POS-es wouldn't increase player involvement. It would only be a quality of life change for the most involved players, and they "don't matter", as they won't quit anyway.

I'd like to present a way how POS-es could gain much larger use by players and by it, become an expansion. Something that can get casual players involved and non-players try out EVE. Fixing the POS interface would be needed or these casual or new players would leave the new gameplay with disappointment.

The idea also fixes an old problem of EVE: there are more manufacturing slots in Sobaseki (a highsec system) than whole Deklein (nullsec region). Living in highsec is too easy. CCP has been considering decreasing highsec station refinement, manufacturing and research, but they were scared off as they know that the highsec players don't see leaving highsec an option. They see leaving the game a better option.

Instead of removing perfect refine, endless manufacturing and some research from highsec, they should only be removed from stations in highsec, lowsec and NPC null. You can still perfectly refine, manufacture, research in NPC owned systems, just drop a POS! This would be the ultimate "player housing" feature.

Of course station slots can't be removed as very new players have to familiarize with the features. Instead, I'd make the slots unprofitable: increase the "we take" part of the refining to take 10% with perfect skills and standings. Add 10% unavoidable waste to manufacturing. Research costs should be affected by BPO costs. Let the noob research that T1 frig BPO, but make researching capital BPOs on stations very expensive. This way station slots would be good for newbies and those who quickly want to try something, but useless for profitable production.

On the other hand make planting highsec POS-es easier, and make it clear that serious industry must be done there. This way - like POCOs - POS-es would be a cooperative, wardeccable form of space usage in highsec.

Since industry would no longer be on stations, finally the "safe corporations" could be implemented. These corps are not wardeccable and members can't awox, but they can also not own POS-es or POCOs, and must pay NPC tax, so they are really just for a few friends missioning together, just like they'd do in the NPC corp, but with their own tag.

Lemmings update:
The war losses are 13.7B vs 7.6B, the RvB pets are still in the fight, but losing badly. As soon as they give up, the Goon POCOs are history.


Raphael said...

It's a nice idea in theory, but you're rather behind the curve.

The key idea - POSs should be better for large-scale industry than NPC stations - is already implemented. Manufacturing anything other than a T2 ship at a POS already increases your profits by 33%. Research is either 33% or 100% more efficient just from the slot modifiers, and the queues on station slots can easily double that again. (Admittedly refining at a POS is still broken, but while that's an issue for deep null, hi-sec has enough stations that it's mostly irrelevant).

As mechanics stand right now, the only reason a serious industrialist would use stations over a hi-sec POS is the god-awful POS code.

(Incidentally, the reason there's little to no null-sec industry is simple. Industrialists already have the tools to do it, but the null-sec population gives us no reason to bother.

If I want to sell to Goons, I don't go to VFK; I go to Jita, and they'll come to me.)

Anonymous said...

Capital BPO research is done in POS.

Most people who own a POS do their ME/PE research in there anyway.
Same as they do chunks of their building in their.

We have unavoidable waste on many BPs now, its called Extra Materials.

10% change in refining would have precisely the same effect as the change in Broker Fees did....none for the individual refiner/trader, as they will keep the margin the same on their profits, just stick the price up a bit.

There is no turning back said...

"This way - like POCOs - POS-es would be a cooperative, wardeccable form of space usage in highsec."

POS already ARE a cooperative, wardeccable form of space usage in highsec.
And new players already have to face the fact that they can't place a POS on their own as there are tons of "zombie POS" on every single moon.

Now "nerf" the stations and we will see unlimited bombless bombers out of nullsec taking out every single highsec POS and placing a new one, just to force highsec to refine and manufacture at 10% loss.

Well... I fail to see how new players would have better game experience with it.
But... I'm pretty sure CCP is already planing to change things that way.
Have a POS and the possibility to set refining-, manufacturing-, ME/PE research taxes depending on standings.

Just imagine CFC could get 5% of each ore refined in Domain or The Forge as taxes if the players choose to use their POS instead of the station with 10% loss.

*starts investing in POS*

Lummi said...

I just checked the war report and RvB is not listed as an ally anymore. Did RvB drop out of the war or are they going to attack you again? Anything offical?

professor clio said...

The ally system automatically drops you from a war 2 weeks after offering the ally so as of DT today, RvB is no longer at war with lemmings. I look forward watching you fail to take goon pocos "as soon as [RvB] gives up".

Gevlon said...

@Professor Clio: you can rejoin after 4 hours. Or you got enough "fun"?

professor clio said...

Actually we want to point and laugh when you fail to kill a single poco.

Anonymous said...

This post presented by someone who has never done large scale T2 manufacturing.

Congratulations on your ignorance of the fact that POSes are already the preferred and superior platform for most everything related to industry!

Gevlon said...

@Professor Clio: then why did you join at the first place? I mean we are harmless and can't kill any POCOs. Why did you jump to save them then?

I'm sure your withdraw has nothing to do with the 2:1 damage:loss ratio.

professor clio said...

You want us in the war or out of the war? Make up your kind already. The 2:1 loss ration is due to 3-4 bads losing silly expensive pods. It literally has no impact on rvb. But keep drinking the cool aid. We joined for fun fights, had a few of those and now we're giving you the chance to put your money where your mouth is so to speak. My prediction is that you will not destroy a single goon poco and despite all your bluster you actually want us involved because you can blame us for your impotence. Now that you can't do that anymore I'm sure youll come up with yet another hilarious reason why your failure is not your fault.

Gevlon said...

You're right: you served both as a constant comedy source with your losses AND a risk-free way of winning. While "dunking RvB" is given, "taking Goon POCOs" can be lost, so indeed, the "lay back and laugh" period is over and we have to do things seriously. We CAN fail, no doubt.

Note: as a former ganker, let me tell you that the pod-lottery is a very motivating thing. Popping small ships (mining barges, frigs, destroyers, T1 cruisers) feels like a grind. But every time you open a pod kill report you are full of excitement. Usually it's a cheap pod, but sometimes it's a JACKPOD! and it makes you go on for another "grind some frigs/retrievers" session.

Von Keigai said...

make the slots unprofitable: increase the "we take" part of the refining to take 10% with perfect skills and standings

This won't do anything for POSes, because we lose no less than 25%.

There is no good reason for the 75% cap on POS refining. Abolish it. This could be done tomorrow, legacy code or not. It would take a competent programmer maybe a few minutes of work.

Add 10% unavoidable waste to manufacturing. Research costs should be affected by BPO costs.

I have a different idea: allow station services to be privately owned by player corps, who then get to control the fees they charge for use. Capitalist competition would then take place, resulting in station slots costing a bit more than POS slots. POS/Station balance is achieved organically by harnessing player intelligence and market effects, rather than having to be done by design.

Also, player-owned things can be fought over. Just as POSes are a reason to fight, player owned station services would mean fighting, and that is good.

Lucas Kell said...

"a risk-free way of winning"
Your definition of winning still differing from most it seems. Raw KB numbers are not able to tell you if you are winning. If Person A with 10b isk has a war with Person B with 2m isk, and loses 50m, while Person B lost everything, Person B didn't "win". He just got a higher number in a single chosen metric. If you looked at amount fielded:amount lost as a metric, the results would be vastly different, as it would be for a huge number of possible metrics.

And it's no surprise that a bunch of noobs in T1 frigates camping the Jita undock lose less and kill more, it's simple logic. But in all seriousness, answer me this question honestly: Do you truly believe that the lemmings will be able to win a battle if either Goons or RvB mounted an actual fleet to combat them?

Gevlon said...

Of course not. But the point is to force them to do that, wasting their time for a blueball, until no one joins a "yet another POCO rep fleet in highsec"

Lucas Kell said...

"Of course not. But the point is to force them to do that, wasting their time for a blueball, until no one joins a "yet another POCO rep fleet in highsec""
I think you'll be thoroughly disappointed. If anything you are providing content that is in part different from the norm, thus likely to keep people's interest, and the opportunity to blap noobs at the same time, BONUS!
I think if you want to make an impact, you need to sit down, take a realistic look at the situation and formulate an achievable strategy. I guarantee you'll lose members who can no longer be bothered to come reinforce a POCO faster than the goons will lose members of a repping party, especially if you hold no hope of fighting the defense fleet.

By the way, while we're taking a moment to be a bit more serious, why is it you hate the goons so much more than any other null group anyway?

Gevlon said...

I want those POCOs. Most Lemmings can't care less, they are happy popping random Goon newbs and whatever pet Goons throw at us.

About the "why do you hate Goons":

Anonymous said...

I like your POS ideas. Couple them with increased productivity in POS'es while maintaining the less productivity in stations and you'll have a legitimate reason why people would want to be in player-run corps and owning real estate instead of tooling around in the NPC corps.

Lucas Kell said...

"I want those POCOs. Most Lemmings can't care less, they are happy popping random Goon newbs and whatever pet Goons throw at us."
Well, best of luck. Most don't care now, but you haven't had them grind structures yet. If they grind a structure to reinforce then either get dunked or have to skip the reinforce timer, they'll soon lose interest.

"About the "why do you hate Goons""
Oh I see, though this raises more questions than answers.

1. "Unlike all other EVE groups, they are proud to not be an EVE group, but a "community born" group. What does it mean? In short: if you aren't a Goon already, you can't become one"
- A lot of groups are bound by communities. There are countless groups of friends who play in corps that are private to anyone else. And you don;t have to be a goon already, you can join the SA forums and become a member of their community and/or get sponsored by another goon.
In reality it's just a group of people who share common interests playing together, like any other. You get foreign language groups and groups who like a set task or for a set age group, etc. Goons are no different.
And bear in mind that TEST also are born from a community. With the goons, you have to be part of their community to get in, so you know exactly what you are getting. TEST let you in, then you found out they did nothing but post pictures and joke about and you hated it. Surely the goons are better in that regard, since they are up front about the requirements?

2. "Their recruiters are scammers who just take your money"
- The official goon recruitment page states in big red letters that if you get asked for isk, you are being scammed. All they are doing there is separating morons from their isk. I'd have thought you'd be on board with that one...

3. "You can join satellite corps and alliances - the pets - who are just doing what the Goons tell them to do"
- The other corps in goons are goons, sure the main corp makes the leadership decisions, but that's the same everywhere. Lemmings holding hold the leading spot for the lemmings alliance. As for the other alliances, sure we take strategic decisions from the goons, they are the leaders of the coalitions after all, but I think you underestimate how much freedom the member alliances have. Many times our goals simply coincide which is a sign of a well coordinated coalition. I look to SMA leadership however, not goon leadership. If SMA tell me to go left and the goons tell me to go right, I go left, it's that simple. And back in the TEST war, there were many times when multiple alliances were recalled from the warzone by their individual leadership for short periods over wartime CTAs.

4. "Goons are evil because they claim that their winnings aren't coming from simply playing the game better, but because they "have more friends" or "better at the metagame" and such nonsense, all meaning that there is nothing you can do about them"
- About the only part of that I've seen outside of propaganda is "better at the metagame", which is true. Undeniably so. Many of the meta tools used nowadays to passively attack an alliance were goon created or inspired. Strangely, their biggest winning point though is that everyone makes a difference, which is more in line with what you are aiming for than it is which elitist PVP groups (like Marmite for example).

5. "They are superior people"
- One of the most common things you will see goons write is "We're terrible at EVE", so that's not right. And just today I read an AAR from last year that had me in stitches due to how ad-hoc and half-arsed the fleet was. The FC's own summary was:
"Terrible Music: Check
Ignore Intel: Check
Die in a fire: Check"
I think a lot of goons would disagree if you called them superior (well, they'd probably agree to troll you first).

Garner said...

The fact is that the POSes are popular right now. I doubt that I'm the only that don't find slots to do anything not manufacturing in highsec. For other thing not this (ME/PE/copying/invention) always all the slots or almost all of them are ocuppied with several-days queues.