Greedy Goblin

Thursday, April 12, 2012

The first mining fleet

It's time to make our first group effort, a mining fleet. Mining has terribly low income compared to trading, so why bother? Because there are huge changes in the mineral economy:
  • rogue drones no longer drop alloys that were reprocessed to minerals
  • pirates no longer drop T1 items that were reprocessed too
  • bots will be banned more often
These will all decrease mineral production, significantly increasing mineral prices. The only thing that could increase mineral production is players mining. However as Jester pointed out, Hulkageddon is coming, and even without that Hulks are favorite targets of random griefers. Hulks are weak, 24K EHP is the max you can achieve with full tank fit. Hulks are also damn expensive, 350M already and with material prices that increases too, so 5 tornado cost. And only two ganking tornado can take it down in highsec. In low and even alliance-owned null the situation is even worse. In low, random roaming pirates can even profitably gank them, in corporate null stealth bombers and cynoed fleets of enemies or simple griefers will massacre them.

However for every problem there is solution. This time it's inspired by a strange roleplayer, Chribba, who created The Veldnought a dreadnought mining veldspar. Of course we don't have to take so expensive route. Check this ship out:
This ship has 5x more EHP than a Hulk and mines 2/3 as much. It has no bounty on it during Hulkageddon and probably most gankers would just ignore it. Those who don't must make some serious effort: 10 ganking tornado needed in highsec, 12 if the pilot has the reaction time to overheat the defensive modules. To make it worse, this ship costs just 3 Tornadoes.

I'm sure that the next weeks minerals will come from mining battleships. Of course for low sec they need shield boosters too and proper armed escort, but an Orca with 10-12 such ships and haulers can make some serious mining operation relatively safely in owned nullsec. For even more safety and effectivity, one can mimic Chribba's other ship, the Veldatar. Of course a mining titan is probably overkill, but I really believe that in low and nullsec mining heavy combat ships will be common sight. Of course with a carrier around to be able to instantly refit for combat.

And there is a way for mining even for solo players during Hulkageddon without having a battleship. Use a Covetor or a Procurer. They cost 35M and 4M so you simply factor losses into the income, calculating with the insurance too. You'll be ganked, but if you are smart and mine in hidden systems, your income will outperform your losses.

Now back to our operation: It will happen on Saturday 15:00 server time (what time zone is that anyway?). Be on the goblinworks channel, we figure out the details. Come with any ship useful for a mining operation (mining barge, mining BS, hauler, Orca). The main aim is to optimize this operation since during Hulkageddon it will probably be a serious income source to have a gank-proof mining fleet, so preferably come with your Hulkageddon-mining ship (I'll have an Orca by then). Of course the common sense EVE rules apply: don't fly what you can't replace, have insurance and tank modules.

More details: since 15+ ships in one place is asking for being smartbombed, I'd prefer several smaller fleets: 3-5 mining ships, a hauler, preferably an Orca too. My fleet will surely operate in Caldari space, probably The Citadel, however on the channel you can form other fleets too. Important info on jetcans: you can create one once in every 3 mins, but you can name them and keep loading them!

Moron of the day is here. Please. Don't haul anything expensive in a small hauler. Get an Orca. Or at least a fast frigate.

Business report: Thurstday morning 7.8B (0.1B gifts 3 PLEX behind for second account).


Kristophr said...

Ah, good.

I gave the same advice today to a newb on the forums who was complaining about a griefer in a gank fit destroyer nuking his untanked Hulk in highsec.

Buy a Rohk, and mine old school. Laugh at gank-destroyers.

Off topic, but hilarious:

340 Caldari Navy BCUs.

If this moron had carried his stuff in an Orca's corporate hold, this would not have dropped or have been visible. A Prorator is a nice cloaky transport ... but it is hard to cloak when undocking or docking at a horribly busy place like Jita.

Makes me want to consider taking up suicide ganking when I see this stuff ...

Anonymous said...

The losses from using a weak hauler will be higher than you think because you didn't factor in the price of minerals lost on each ship blown up.

Kristophr said...

One other note:

A Covetor is fairly expensive, and takes almost as long to train for as a Hulk, and a Procurer is not much better than a mining Vexor with a full set of mining drones.

I would suggest dropping to a Retriever instead, if you aren't going the Rohk route.

BTW, if you are mining in a Rohk with an Orca handy, you will want to put Mining laser upgrades in low, and maybe fit some nanos to improve bug-out speed. Cargo hold capacity is not important ... it just needs to be able to hold one or two mining laser cycles.

Just stay close to the Orca, and dump your hold directly into the Orca's corporate tab. If the Orca wanders off, jetcan the ore, and the Orca can grab the can with it's huge tractor range.

Anonymous said...

That is a moron getting ganked like that. When hauling in & out of Jita always use off-grid bookmarks when coming out and warp to zero to dock up. NEVER go in & out of the Perimeter gate. No shield tank and no warp stabs. He deserved to be ganked.

Anonymous said...

Eve time is GMT (or UTC, more correctly).

Buggrit said...

Off-grid undock bookmarks. 200k+ bookmarks on gates in frequently travelled areas.

If what you're carrying is important, in some circumstances bounce off planets 1st, not gate-to-gate.

For fast transport, an interceptor or an assault frigate. It will take a surprising amount of beating.

A fully tanked HAC, Hdictor or even T2 BC can also save you a lot of grief. You can get an unholy EHP with those things.

Anti said...

i was already thinking of a mining BS for Hulkageddon.

i have yet to crunch the numbers but doesnt the the rokh rely on four mining laser upgrades (MLU) to be competitive with the retriever (let alone the hulk).

just checked info on
(haladas mining guide)

using the retriever as baseline:
retriever - 100%
rokh - 120% if fitted with MLUs
covetor - 179%
hulk - 275% (perfect skills)
orca boosted hulk - 354%

so fitting the rokh with a tank instead of MLUs might make it even less effective as a retriever.

covetor is a decent upgrade on the retriever....but the training time from covetor to hulk is insignificant so most people jump straight from retriever to hulk. i know i did.

Gevlon said...

@Anti: without cargohold expanders the hold can't even carry 2 cycles of ore.

Of course if you don't mind to orca-dock after every cycle, fit MLUs

ariantes said...

Gevlon, you might want to add a meeting point (not the system where you want to mine tho) for the mining fleet. If all the people have first to travel there, it will take quite some time for the OP to take off.

Care said...


You don't need to dock to unload your ore into the orca, you just drag it from your cargo bay into the orca's cargo bay if you are within 2500m range. Alternatively, you can jetcan it in space.

Caramael said...

Count me in. Will probably be flying an Osprey. Or I could bring a ~24k cargo Bestower.

Gevlon said...

Jetcan has time limit and I can't guarantee Orca for every fleet.

Care said...


Yes there is a 3 minute delay between jetcanning, but that doesn't matter. You jetcan once to create a container in space which has a volume of 25km³. You open that container and drag fresh ore into from your cargobay. No need to make a fresh jetcan container everytime.

Also, name your containers, it makes it easier to keep track of things. And keep in mind that they implode after 2h's (to avoid garbage) so a timestamp upon creation is recommended
1245 Gevl - full
1248 Care - full
1302 Gevl
1309 Care

Gevlon said...

@Care: did not know that, post updated.

Anonymous said...


Jetcans have a two hour time limit. If you can't deal with jetcans within that time period then you have a logistical problem.

The most common Orca fit for high slots is Tractor + two mining gang links (cycle time reduction and range increase). Only the cycle time reduction assists in increasing yield and the range increase is mostly a convenience piece.

Second, Orcas are considered valid targets for Hulkageddon and I believe in at least one of the past ones they made industrials and freighters valid targets as well. It's good and all to have the BS miners but the other links in the chain are still weak and vulnerable. Knock out the Orca and the whole op falls apart.

Last year 6 Orcas and 1 Rorqual were popped along with 2 Freighters, 1 Jump Freighter, 506 Industrials, and 30 Transports.

Bobbins said...

'I gave the same advice today to a newb on the forums who was complaining about a griefer in a gank fit destroyer nuking his untanked Hulk in highsec.

Buy a Rohk, and mine old school. Laugh at gank-destroyers'

That is bad advice. A Rohk is not the best way to mine far from it. Of course it depends on the circumstances but telling him how to skill up and the modules to use on the hulk is better advice. Hulkaggedon is not the norm and people use the rokh during that event because of the greatly increased risk. I doubt very much you can laugh at ganking destroyers that force you to use a rokh to mine perhaps cry but laugh no.

Gevlon said...

@Bobbins: and how about someone who already has a fully fitted battleship but when the mineral prices peak, he wants a piece of that? All he has to learn is Mining 4 and off he goes!

Anonymous said...

I will try to be there with my Vexor (4 mining lasers + 5 drones).

Werner Kaladan

Anonymous said...

Even though you can compete with a retriever's yield mining in a battleship by squeezing in several MLUs, you will go crazy. You have to drag your ore into the can every 1-2 minutes which will make you go crazy in a very short time. Meanwhile retrievers can go 3-6 min between clicks, and Hulks 6-15 min depending on fit.

Over the course of a couple hours one will leave you with plenty of time to work on industry spreedsheets or reading while the other will make you hate mining.

Perhaps it's the fact that I've been mining in a Hulk with a 17.2k cargo hold for a couple weeks now, but once Hulkageddon begins I'll probably just work on getting my standing up, because if I have to mine in something with less than 1k cargo space (not to mention the massive yield decrease), well I'd just rather not mine at all.

Bobbins said...

The original advice was given to someone who had already skilled up to a hulk.
However your point that the rokh is viable to someone who doesn't want to train to mine. Well it works but that person will always be less productive than a specialised miner. It will be alot harder work using mining lasers than the strip miners and in general just more pain for less gain.
When the mineral prices go up if he mines using a rokh he will work harder and longer for less isk until he trains and gets the right equipment.

Gevlon said...

@Bobbins: I'd rather say "did not train to mine" instead.

I mean guys income was ratting and missioning. These are nerfed. Mineral prices are up, pulling ship prices up. His income decreases, costs increases. So he decides to mine. His options:
- Keep ratting missioning for 5 weeks while he trains a Hulk
- Train Mining 4 and jump on his battleship to mine while training for a Hulk.

Bobbins said...

I personally would go for the less productive retriever rather than the battleship due to it being alot easier to use. This would significantly shorten the time I needed to use the rokh.
In short I like the 3 minute cycle time and larger cargo space of the retriever than the higher yielding rokh. The advantages of the rokh is its durability and skill requirements.

Kristophr said...

Good, I see you've been sorted out on the jetcan issue.

If you can't bring an Orca, you will probably need someone ( or even better, two someones ) to bring an industrial fitted with a 10NM MWD and a tractor beam to fetch the cans and, when full, to haul ore to the nearest station for refining ( refined product is a hell of a lot easier to haul to market ).

If you are going to aggregate hauling, you will need to either give everyone equal shares, or look at fits and spreadsheet micro shares. Maybe one share per mining laser 1 ( 40 cubic meters per 60 seconds ), with other mining gear ( strip miners, drones, crystals, MLUs, etc ) being worth more shares.

Some kind of spreadsheet would have to be created.

Eve University uses equal shares on its mining ops, trusting that miners will upgrade to increase total profit, but that is a bit socialistic.