Greedy Goblin

Thursday, January 5, 2012

Ending the no-farm project

We killed the first 7 boss in 2 weeks. It's faster than our raid progression in any other season. We never cleared Firelands, killed Nefarian and the Lich King months after the start. Yet we couldn't kill Deathwing this way. After more than a hundred tries we managed to learn every dance and just got to enrages. The DPS of the players were very similar, showing that there are no bad players to replace, we simply reached our limits.

The right choice here is not sticking out to a lost cause but to change it. We will start farming to increase the average ilvl of the people and will surely kill DW in January, starting hard modes.

The major cause of the downfall of the project is that we expected 4.3 to be similar to 4.2. The project would have shined in 4.2, but in 4.3 dances are decreased and DPS/HPS requirements are introduced. Also, the "first bosses are piss-easy" design make farm raids much easier. I remember wiping with new people dozen times on "farm" Rhyolith. This week we were trying on DW and dropped the save only on the last day before reset, leaving only one farm day. Despite half of the raid did not kill these bosses and the other half did it once, we killed the first 5 bosses in one raid. So the difficulty of farming decreased while its importance is increased. The project was started to "kill the dance", but the importance of dance has decreased significantly, so it's no longer needed.

The following schedule will replace the project: Wednesday is the LFR/BH day to let guildies run these without having to commune with the terrible randoms. Of course no one is forced to participate, I just can't imagine why would someone suffer the randoms if he doesn't have to. On the following day we farm the first bosses. I'm not sure how Warmaster responds to better gear, he lives in our memories as a damned dance boss.

Remember: it's a social thing to stick to something that doesn't work. A goblin goes after hard results, if they don't come, change and ignore the trolls.


Anonymous said...

Warmaster's dance is a mission if you mean the first part of the fight where players need to stand in bad to keep the ship alive. However, the better your players' gear the faster the drakes go down and the less time you need to spend worrying about the ship's health. Our second kill went much more smoothly than the first with just the addition of a little valour and LFR gear.

Anonymous said...

100 over tries at Deathwing sounds really, really painful. Considering each attempt where you get to the 4th platform is a 10+ minute exercise.

Out of curiosity, how is your raid managing the platforms, and are you having problems at the head phase?

Anonymous said...

If it didnt work for NM content, you didnt farm the previous content enough.

For such a project it would be helpfull if the whole group would be equipt in BIS, befor the patchday.

Uranax said...

ginsu@first anon

From someone who was there nearly all tries, it was really painful. We take platforms in Green>Red>Bronze>Blue order. And we had no major trouble with headphase other than enrage happened. Our best attempt was at 3.5M health left.

Backthief said...

Basicly speaking, you need a better ilvl gear average, right?

Whats your current ilvl gear in your raid members and whats the ilvl you think you need to reach the necessary DPS/HPS?

Imakulata said...

@Second anonymous, wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the project? Please correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I understand this, Gevlon asserted that D/HPS didn't matter in the raids and wanted to prove it by showing that a raid with not stellar DPS but good ability to execute the encounter can progress. If the raid was equipped in BiS, their DPS would actually be good so they would progress but would fail to prove his assertion. Guess which one was the goal...

Anonymous said...

DW was killable by a large majority of legitimate raiding guilds the first week he was out without farming previous bosses. By definition he should be killable with a group of people that are competent and can max their classes out.

All this proves is your guild doesn't have the skill to gear ratio to kill the boss. This assumes you weren't trying to pull an undergeared (blues/whatever) guild project idea to a new raid. If your people weren't geared enough to begin with (380ish) then you got what should have been expected, a hard stopping point for the raid until nerfs come.

Gevlon said...

@Last (dumb) anonymous: the guilds you are referring to are hard mode raiding guilds, equipped with 391 heroic FL gear and most casters with legendary weapon.

Deepfriedegg said...

WEll, this was seen long before it happened (check my posts that had censored out), you were told by lots of "naysayers" - how you call them - inclusing me. There is no dance in DS except for Zon'ooz ping-pong phase, Blackhorn P1 and Hagara heroic storm phase...
You couldnt beat the last boss even when your raid had access to 4 weeks worth of LFR and VP farming , trash drops and BoEs (as this type of farming is allowed in your No-farm project, what an irony)

Deepfriedegg said...

you are right. With ilevels slightly above 390 and competent raiders the drakes go down so fast (at least in 25 man) that the raid doesnt have to step into small twilight barrages anymore. The only concern remains Twilight onslaught and death-gripping the sapper.

Rohan said...

Out of curiosity, how many add cycles did you have in the head phase?

When did you use Heroism/Bloodlust on that fight?

I don't suppose you guys have parses you'd be willing to make available for us. There might be something we can see that would have made it possible.

Anonymous said...


Why do you chose Red second, adding several adds to kill, when your main problem is the enrage timer? Did you actually try Red as third?

Aside from that, you say the "kill the dance" project is no longer needed, and you may be right in observing a change.

But do you realize that even if it was still needed, you may have failed just the same with your project on the DPS requirements? (Yes, more dance would be balanced by less DPS requirement, but enough for you to succeed?)

Uranax said...

@last anon

Not have the time zone made us loose even more dps than blistering tentacels. Everyone posioning away from blast took so long time.

And to people wondering about gear, I tanked it in 371 average ilvl.

Anonymous said...

My guild struggled with juggling platform 4 and headphase for 2 weeks. Initially we were unable to survive platform 4's cataclysm cast, and we had to use bloodlust to beat the timer on that. This killed us on the head phase, where adds typically killed our tanks on the second round.

We eventually got around this by managing to beat the cataclysm cast timer on platform 4 with our own DPS cooldowns and potions; saving bloodlust for head phase. We managed to pull it off after a few tries.

Anonymous said...

@deepfriedegg - you didn't see shit. you guessed. you had no evidence that this could not be done. the only guild i have heard attempting this is gevlon's, therefore, the evidence did not exist until now.

being a naysaying pos troll you are bound to be right every once in a while. gratz.

why don't you go back to reading wowinsider now?

Deepfriedegg said...


"to see something coming" is a phrase in english language which doesnt actually mean you "see" something. It is used for something obvious that is going to happen.

If you go back and check my posts (none of them as offensive as yours), you would actually see what reasons did I post, it was not just guessing.

Having to resort to ofenses means you dont have any relevant argument. Since when having a different opinion is a trolling?.

Not that it matters but I guess I removed WoWInsider from my bookmarks something like 2-3 years ago.


Aszune - EU (world top 500 25 man guild with 4/8 HM)
(who are you?)

Deepfriedegg said...


It seems reasonable that you chose Nozdormu before Alexstrasza. You may have hard time with Elementium bolts otherwise.
Also you *may* ignore last batch of Blistering tentacles if you have enough high burst DPS classes (and maybe use a raid healing CD)

Your ilvl may be only 371 but your lowest items (blue rings and 359 relic...) are the smallest stat contributors so iLvlv is very skewed in your case.
But you are not putting too much effort into getting better gear, I can count over 5000VP (2500 LFR, 400 Alizabal, 800 from raids, 1200 LFD on your character yet you spent only 2200 on and probably are selling BoEs
Or tank is your offspec and in that case I apologize

Anonymous said...

Logs please, and what were some raid compositions. How many healers did you use?

Since FL HC was nerfed it is not unreasonable to assume people have lots of FL HC gear. Even pre-nerf, Shannox HC was very easy. Perhaps even easier than Shannox normal.

The fact The PuG was not able to kill Ragnaros normal or Alysrazor normal (after nerfs!!) for a second time is more telling about The PuG. The excuse that The PuG had new players who were inexperienced is bad: I have killed Alysrazor normal in PuGs with people dying left and right on several of my alts. You do not need 10 players to kill Alysrazor 10/N! The magic debuff does nothing anymore, even standing in tornadoes did nothing on normal, and were very slow. You can only fail here due to incredible tunnel vision. I am 100% sure it is easily downable if all have ivll 353 gemmed/enchanted.

With some strategic queuing it is also easy to get good gear from LFR (circumventing the ignorant "no-farm rule"), plus the tanks should get 4set ASAP (in The PuG this is hard to achieve due to GDKP).

We succeeded to kill MoD while being undergeared in some FL HC gear (hardly any LFR or DS/N gear, we are very casual and many do not like to do LFR due to time constraint and lack of requirement of skill), using innervate, hymn of hope, tranquility, and full class skills. We used 2 healers, 2 tanks, 6 DPS with our spriest and doomkin helping out with healing. We had to use quite some tries, and tried various combinations. I hope in The PuG you were not sticking to one combination since for every raid composition the optimimized order is different.

Aside from this some RNG also helped such as fire mage lucky with combustion. Usage of pots was also very important (prepot and heroism at start does little to nothing), NOT all using it at same time and not necessarily during heroism. Also, a DPS going to other platforms nuking them tentacles to near 90% helped beating the cataclysm enrage esp on 4th platform.

Nho said...

@Glotan - we're a very casual raiding guild (raid twice a week, if that) and we killed DW the first week he was out - average itemlevel in the raid was 377 - either your DPS is bad, your healers are bad, or your strategy is way off base. Did you try 2 healing it at all?