Greedy Goblin

Wednesday, April 6, 2011

The worst day of Siamat

Yes, the a-social guild reached the realm first in guild activity and cooperation. We have beaten our competition by a mile, the other guilds on the server are still not lvl 25. How could helpful good people who are loyal to their guild be defeated by a bunch of selfish goblins who are unable to do sacrifices and effort for the "common good"?

The answer is gold:
Sacristy 15470
Oshscript 15089
Glotan 12835
Synara 12344
Nightgerbil 12341 .
Mayu 7543
Bonefactor 6767
Lowza 6080
Uranax 6076
Tidia 5876
Teriss 5664
Martiunus 4249
Aureth 3929
Massacan 3921
Ermak 3750
Torpid 3509
Yrene 3460
Cyren 3371
Tsain 3349
Adrenilyn 3330
Neophyte 3164
Caidai 3143
Scaz 2947
Gottin 2929
Quasar 2916
Misericorde 2886 .
Lívia 2862
Blut 2856
Isperia 2786
Gothîe 2784
Polikmak 2753
Tsila 2735
Sarlatán 2730
Nivluas 2696
Febring 2644
Sevinor 2624
Stabsahlot 2520
Jinchu 2505
Vildh 2456
Dagni 2334
Víerna 2258
Zangief 2129
Fifthlive 1909
Callandor 1844
Wilza 1795
Peco 1757
Suiji 1625
Ekkl 1520
Suhailah 1170
Scipi 1094
Kortner 971
Aronax 953
Hartog 901
Samsen 883
Qohelet 790
Medit 788
Wilia 748
Fifth 735
Negiys 712
Rhugala 683
Michimi 606
Shawood 600
Baitra 582
Guntina 496
Yuuno 435
Everyone else: 3298
This is the salary list of the members and mercenaries. The method was simple: every 500 guild XP you earn worth 1 gold. Since armory tracks "lifetime guild XP" it was easy to calculate who earned what. This list contains characters and alts are not combined, so it's not players toplist.

I paid 225K gold, more than the old goldcap for this feat. This is the "simple" way of goblinish motivation. You get what you pay for and if you pay well, you always find people who work for you and make your dreams come true. In the "heplfull friendly" guilds the members had little personal motivation to get XP for the guild. They may did some to not be called leeches but stopped there. Why go further than the next guy? Here the performance had direct connection to personal payment.

This even works if the person has 0 connection to the guild. Several names on the list, including #2 Oshscript are not guild members. They are mercenaries who were recruited on /trade for this day. They will get paid and removed. That was the deal.

The other thing I wanted to show is what gold is really for. People use to ask "why make gold, you can't spend it". Actually you can, I could buy sandstone drakes for 5 characters from this money, allowing them to block postboxes in SW, making myself a complete idiot. Of course you can't spend such gold on yourself in a way that makes sense. But you can fund really great feats. In WoW it's limited of course, but in the real world from cancer research to space flight or even political changes there are so many ways to make real difference if you can afford them.

I still have 400K + 100K loan to the guild bank left. So I can fund more great things (as far as things in WoW go). I'm thinking about toplists. Socials love toplists. I will prove that even their social aims are easier to get with goblinism (details in Saturday's extra post). Just like the realm first 25. Wouldn't they want a realm first, to be first on those lions (which I will never buy of course)? To link the feat of strength on /trade as "argument for their awesomeness"? Well, they can't! Because I took it from them, and not with more love, friendship or loyalty. With cold hard cash.

And what about Siamat? If you look at the list, half of the XP were gained by the top 12 characters. Including alts the top 10 players got half of the XP. Most realm first guilds are HC raiding guilds running 5-8 fixed dungeon groups farming HCs all day. We practically had 2 such groups. On peak hours more people were online than ever, we could run our first BH25 and a BH10, there were times when 5 groups were in the dungeons. Many people wanted to contribute and went out a bit from their way to get guild XP. But still we had 10 really active people. How could we beat bigger, more HC guilds with only 2 groups?

By spamming Lost City of Tol'vir normal. A HC boss gives 46500 guild XP, and a really good group can finish it in half an hour. If you have average players online, it takes more. If someone is tired and makes a mistake, it's a wipe. HCs have lockout so you must go random, getting places like the bugged ToT (no guild XP from bosses after Lady Nazjar), Vortex with only 3 bosses but lot of trash or Stonecore and Grim Batol that wipe even good players if they want to skip packs.

On the other hand a normal lvl 85 instance (Tol'vir, Halls of Origination, Grim Batol) boss gives 31000 guild XP and you need to do a huge mistake to wipe there. Tol'vir is the best because it has very little trash and can be completed in 10 minutes by a really good group but even a group with some 82-84 people can do it in 15. On average we could do 4 runs/hour including breaks, replacements, summons, "brb inventory is full", providing 31K*4*4 = 500K GXP/hour/person. When someone had Siamat-allergy, the group went to HoO normal, which is a bit slower (430K GXP/hour/person) but just as sure.

I never had it. Even after the 40th Simaticide, it felt like playing. Tol'vir is really beautiful instance. Have you noticed that there is evening, night, dusk, dawn and daylight in the instance, according to the time? This is how the temple of Siamat looks like when the Sun goes down in the desert:
Since it was normal, I just Alt-Z out, kept RT-CH-CH-CH rotation on the tank and watched the instance, putting interface back only on mispulls and bosses.

If you want to see goblinism in work, providing the members raids, PvP groups without ever having to suffer beggars and lolkids, join! After reading the rules of course.


zenga said...

It surprises me that you do value how an instance looks like (beautiful) on one hand, but that on the other hand you classify people who value how a mount looks like as idiots.

It surprises me even more how a goblinish player does not ends up braindead from killing the same easy bosses over and over and over again, just for the purpose of beating social guilds.

If the farm was to loot an item that, lets say, would increase your chances on a realm first sinestra kill; I would value that more. That is from my playing playing point of view.

I guess it just proves what many posters have been saying for ever: each player has his/her own motivations of what is important cq what is an achievement. Just as well as each player has his/her own definition of what is nonsenses. And there is little reason to value one motivation higher/lower than another one, provided it is not a complete idiot.

chewy said...

Well done.

It is a testament to your ability to organise, lead and think laterally about solving a problem.

Bobbins said...

Honestly I don't see the point in this "realm first" nonsense. It doesn't give any kind of benefit and (besides gathering professions) usually mean a waste of huge amount of gold. It's rather silly than awesome

nightgerbil said...

@ zenga

Gevlon loaths M&S. The purpose of the guild as I understand it is to demonstrate to socials (like myself) that I dont have to play with and carry M&S. I can still achieve all my goals within wow, despite the fact that due to my real life career I am unable to sign upto the hardcore raiding guild that would be my natural home.

This realm first matters to socials, it demonstrates the abilty of the guild to work and achive things together, and it furthers Gevlons ultimate goal of seperating the skilled social from the "casuallol" guilds, thus leaving the M&S to wallow and hopefully drown in their own analspam. Thats my understanding of it anyway

Camiel said...

You mock people who spend time getting the Long Trip achievement, yet you go to extreme lengths to make an entire guild push for realm first level 25, an achievement that has no other benefits than bragging rights.

Seems inconsistent to me.

Xaxziminrax II said...


Gevlon commented on this before; to see the mount you can go to SW or look at someone else riding it, do not have to buy it. To see the instance you have to go there. You still may argue 'why play at all, just look at screenshots' of course.

Rades said...

The difference is he's not there to look at the scenery, it's just a nice side benefit while he's doing his real objective - earning guild XP. Quite a bit different than someone who values a mount. It costs him nothing extra and because it's normal, it's not like he's risking wiping the group by stargazing, so it's really win-win. :P

Yaggle said...

Achievements are stupid. So you found something to spend all that money on, after all. But you have said your reasons for wanting these guild achievements and I understand them. When you take something stupid away from stupid people who want that stupid something more than anything(realm first woohoo!), that really is a beautiful thing. It's like taking the ring away from Gollum, or taking the cocaine away from Kirstie Alley. Just don't put the ring on yourself, know what I am saying?
Congratulations, once again you have proved the value and success of Goblinism.

Camiel said...


I think you have not understood at all. Taking something you don't even value away from someone who values it a lot is not the goblin way, that's just purely anti-social, maybe even sociopathic.

The reason why Gevlon did it, was to prove that the silly (sic) goals that the socials set for themselves, are more easily achieved using goblin ways than social ways. So he did it to prove a theory, not to rob them and gloat at their misery.

Squishalot said...

The PuG isn't just set up to beat socials' heads in, it's to demonstrate that you don't need to be a no-lifer hardcore raiding guild in order to succeed.

Gevlon talks about how most realm firsts are HC raiding guilds running non-stop heroics. Then he proceeds to talk about how the PuG chain-runs normal LCTV 40.

What part of 'don't need to be a no-lifer' involves chain running dungeons for GXP?

Gevlon said...

@Squishalot: members were not forced to participate. If you logged in, did a daily HC, maybe some quests, no one told anything bad.

Yes, if you wanted to earn 10K+ gold, you had to farm like crazy. But hey, it's your choice.

Anonymous said...

The only thing that you proved is that useless deeds cannot be self-motivated, but need to have an outside source of influence.

The same way M&S "work together" for so that they can prove to themselves they are better than others, you got the same useless result with spending huge amounts of gold.

This just puts your motivation squarely in line with theirs: only in this case you proved you could pay your way to feeling superior to everyone else who used social manipulation. Dont get me wrong, paying is the best way to get things done, had been proven many times in real world over and over again. But it is funny you do not see in yourself the same thing you abhor in others: the epeen factor in doing useless things.

Another thing: How does this make you in the slightest way different from any social-welfare state? That state also funds achievements it believes no one would and could do without its help? The only way you are behaving more responsibly than that state is that you spent your own money instead of others' money collected through taxes. But wait! You actually didnt spend your own money - because you "loaned" the bank the money, which I assume you will be taking back at some point (if I understood you correctly?).

And you compare your funding of the opening a mount option faster than anyone else on your server to cancer research? Please. Be less dramatic :)

Even if you claim that being the realm first guild will bring more players to your raiding roster, I would bet it would mostly bring the exact same M&S players who care about mounts and bragging rights about realm firsts.

You say: "To link the feat of strength on /trade as "argument for their awesomeness"?" I have been playing on Arathor since vanilla and I have never once seen anyone link their own strength achievement in trade chat. I am sure it does happen since I am not in the game 24/7 but it is far from the link-fest you portray it to be. Unlike realm first boss kills which bring their owners possible sponsorships, your realm first has no market value expect the exact same M&S value you criticize day and day out on your blog.

this thought is most revealing though: "Well, they can't! Because I took it from them" - it clearly shows that in some cases for you being the opposite of M&S does not make you behave any differently. Being asocial with the aim of "showing them their right place" and doing things in-spite is the exact same *way* of behaving and dealing with others in the world like those M&S do.

If I was an analyst (which I am not!) I'd probably say you are fighting your own demons more than you wanna admit :)

Squishalot said...

@ Gevlon: I know members aren't forced to participate. However, that doesn't change the fact that success was achieved through no-life tactics. 50% of hard-core raiding guilds don't raid, as demonstrated by your previous graph. That doesn't change the fact that those who do are "no-lifers" in your books.

Caramael said...

I never had any doubt you'd get the realm first. Congratulations!

Yaggle said...

I don't like to say what other people are thinking, what they meant or what their reasons are, so I will just quote Gevlon:

"I'm fully aware that achievements are pointless and stupid. However as I wrote, achievements matter simply because socials think they do. Guild achievements work two ways for me: at first, it places the guild as a "good guild" into the corner of the mind of socials, making them think of us when they are guild shopping. Secondly, it make them feel bad about their current guild. Obviously it is not a conscious decision, no one will say "my guild has just 230 points, we suck, so I quit and go to The PuG". They will simply have an overall "we suck" feeling, that makes him more vulnerable to drama and less tolerant to other problems.".

As I said before, I understand this. My post(right before yours) added some of my own reasons to enjoy this happy occasion.

Anonymous said...

The thing you don't get is: you paid people.

Even if your achievement will get envy and/or resentment from M&S guild members, you know what they'll do? They'll say "well, he had to *PAY* people to play for him".

And suddenly, for them, you are the pathetic one (as they play with friends, and doing things as a favor for a friend does give a higher moral value than doing something for money).

Yes, you see it very differently, but I think you have no idea how their thought processes work.

Bristal said...

Great achievement. But all you really did is prove once again that strong (and creative) leadership is required for achievement.

But, wasn't the initial point of starting the PuG that leadership and a "work-like approach" weren't necessary if you surrounded yourself with non M&S?

Anonymous said...

I am looking at the roster of my guild to probably do the same and using 1g for 1,500XP (a third of your price), the first contributor would get about 30,000 gold while the 100th guild member would get about 3,000 gold.

Can we have a little more details about how you came up with the 225K gold figure?

Did you take a snapshot once the guild reached level 23 and worked from there or did you just take the lifetime contribution?

Gevlon said...

@Bristal: work-like approach is not needed for normal game progress. For realm firsts, it's a must. But it was completely volunteerly.

@Last anonymous: I took snapshot before last reset. Lvl 25+24+4M left from 23 = 112M guild XP

Anonymous said...

too late now but i just had a thought. you could have recouped some of your costs by selling the realm first GM achievement.

Grim said...

Just a quick note on the "be first on those lions (which I will never buy of course)" part. If you want to attract socials to your guild, buy the lion!

My guild is currently the only one on our realm with scorpion mounts and some people who like the mount have stopped using it because too many people were begging guild invites.

So recipe for getting socials is - buy the lion, sit on it while collecting AH mails or whatever and direct people towards the rules page when the "can i get invite?" spam starts rolling in.