Greedy Goblin

Thursday, August 5, 2010

The Fall of Naxxramas

Geshtalt, a paladin in The PuG organized a Naxx10 run for Tuesday, directly for new members like himself. While I obviously needed nothing there, I wanted to see how it goes. And it went flawlessly, despite 4 people were recruited from trade.

A nasty storm came and at the end of the second wing, right before Loatheb I had a power outage. But it definitely did not stop this crew and cleared all Naxx.

Well clearing Naxx is not a big feat, right? Why do I post about it? Because it's definitely more interesting than farming heroics. Gesthalt gained 3 ilvl200 epics to tanks spec and a DPS trinket on the run, on the top of a dozens of triump badges and about 150 achievement points. The participants definitely had more fun than killing Keristrassa 3 more times.

However "interesting" or "fun" are not objective criteria. People prefer Keristrassa-farming over Naxx because of two reasons: it's much easier (Heigan can still wipe a raid) and because in social guilds and /trade pugs you need gearscore, and Naxx doesn't give more. Let me explain it. Gesthalt have 4160 gearscore. This makes him the "lol noob" in the eyes of /trade pug leaders and "you, like we all need more gear" in the eyes of social guilds. Replacing his former leveling blue helmet into the T7 bought him no further to raiding, so it is complete waste of time if you are in a social guild. Unless it's ilvl 245 at least, it's worthless since it does not give enough GS. So people only farm badges in 5-mans, as the gear (even the 232) is "lol low GS".

However in ThePuG, I would gladly take him to an ICC raid as tank (not to hardmode or Sindy/LK but to 10/12 anytime). Not because I'm nice and friendly but because the gems, enchants and the performance I saw in Naxx proves he can tank BQL, Putri and the abomination worms. In ThePuG replacing your leveling gear to a gemmed-enchanted T7 gets you an ICC spot. Naxx give lot more ilvl 200 epics than normal 5-mans.

And when said low gear or lack of achievements are not a problem as long as you can do your job I meant that way: Check the 4700GS Kortner, who was present in the mentioned Naxx. He did not even have Storming the citadel.
By the way I'm missing from the list since I don't see my own achievement spammed, and Jinchu because he was a replacement after Marrowgar was killed. Oh, and we also 2 shotted Blood Princes HM, placing us to the #24561 position among guilds, out of 61400 guilds. That's better than 61% of the guilds and there are many players who are not in a guild or his guild does not raid, so the base is much bigger. I would dare to guess we are in the top 20% already, despite the guild is just 1.5 months old.

Of course we are permanently recruiting, if you'd like to raid where no one wants you to boost retards, obey attendance rules or farm 5.5K GS before you get an inv, to ToC normal, join! (Of course, only if you can live by the rules).


Eaten by a Grue said...

But why even require 200 epics? 187 blues are probably enough to do ICC10 now, and there they will get replaces with 251's. Naxx seems a waste of time.

Anonymous said...

Isn't "gz" against the rules?

Quixotic said...

It seems kind of silly to say how out of all the guilds in the game you are better than, since (as you yourself stated) there are many guilds that are not trying to raid. That's like a chair manufacturer saying "we make more chairs than 99% of companies in the world!!!" While it may be true, it is essentially meaningless.

Cathfaern said...

Maybe he dont need... But naxx is more fun than hc farming, and a new player will get a lot more raiding experience there. You can't even use proper rotation in an 5man hc, you just can't practice your class and raiding there. And new player really need these practices. And they can get it in naxx, where they also get better gear than ilvl187, get more triumph.

Gevlon said...

@Eaten: I did ICC in ilvl200 blues. Doable but not easy. People should not ignore their gear completely.

@Anyonymous: just on guild chat.

@Quixotic: There are NO guilds that are not trying to raid. There are just guilds who FAIL to raid.

Aljabra said...

If you farmed it to the ground in some good old days - then, probably, it won't be too beneficial. For the new players, though, it's a very nice training ground, that still give nice gear upgrades (lv200 epics, especially with set bonuses, are better than even lv200 blues, if not that much). Bosses there do require some knowledge of tactics and basic understanding of the fight. For experienced player it won't do much, but there are lot of people with raid experience near zero, and no number of heroics runs will give them that.
I think I'll try to get on an Ulduar run today, that content is something people just must see.

Justisraiser said...

Speaking of doing ICC 10 in blues, what happened to the Ungeared project?

Anonymous said...

gz to unpossible lvl 10 is hard:)
and may i suggest doing BQ HC she really is a pushover compared to normal mode.
and there are leveling, guilds bank guilds and other types of no raiding guilds, though raiding is primarily what the game is about so i will cede the point re raiding.
btw do you do any 25 mans or are you to few for that kind of content ?
assuming you are could you get a census ?

Fawr said...

"There are NO guilds that are not trying to raid. There are just guilds who FAIL to raid"

Bank guilds?

Gevlon said...

@Fawr: don't be silly. Bank guilds don't have 10+ lvl 80 members (wowprogress only tracks these)

Wilson said...

"Not because I'm nice and friendly but because the gems, enchants and the performance I saw in Naxx"

July 21:
"The gear must be gemmed and enchanted. Period, no excuses."
"The professions leveled to the point where you can use the profession bonus. "

Geshtalt has no belt buckle (on a 219 tanking belt which he'll probably keep a while), and his only leveled up profession is skinning. So, I'm sure you'll understand if I say I'm a little confused as to why his gems and enchants so impressed you.

Gevlon said...

@Wilson: I cannot not notice everything, also people can make LITTLE mistakes. Missing the enchant on one item is not the same as coming in ungemmed greens lolling.

Wilson said...

On July 21, Gevlon said (in a comment):
"casual" means "play non-scheduled" and not "a lazy dumb expecting boost" which is the case with someone who don't have professions.

Personally, I don't think Geshtalt is a "lazy dumb" - he character looks like a work in progress. And I've seen tanks with less gear handle the first half of ICC just fine. But if being able to tank Maexxna without screwing up is all it takes to get an expensive rule waived, maybe some clarifications are in order.

Urgata said...

There are millions of WOW players out there, including many level 80s who have never raided, and some of those are in social guilds.

That said, if you are using WowProgress, I think those guilds don't show up even though they do have 10+ level 80s. I just checked and a couple guilds with 20 and 40 level 80s and they weren't on the website.

Universal statements are always wrong.

splorch said...

Your also neglecting pvp centric guilds, that concept is a joke but they do exist and they will have a more prevalent existence when rated bg's come into play. Heck wasn't the ganking project one of those guilds? (in ignorance I could be wrong about the ganking project)

Chris said...

Gevlon: Missing any gem/enchant is that bad actually, it makes a 219 belt effectively lower than 213. Do you check them for spec? That makes a huge difference too.

Grats on 10HM princes, its actually harder than most of the rest you have, so you should be good until Sindra/Put with that group.

Im surprised you havent done the 'in relevant gear' achievements with any of your groups yet (herald of the titans and Tribute to Dedicated Insanity) as those are pretty much the last true tests of skill in the game (other than 25LK HM and Tribute to Immortality, which, lets be honest, you wont get without some serious change)

Duskstorm said...

What do you guys think the appropriate quality of gear is the right level to start using epic gems/chants?

I personally use "green" quality gems of the appropriate type unless I'm gemming a well itemized piece of gear that is at least ilvl 245. Some people might argue that I have "gemmed wrong" or something, but I see no problem in using cheaper gems on gear that is easy to replace.

Gregory said...

Glad to hear The Pug's doing ok, but what about your other project, Undergeared? Did they wipe on the summer doldrums boss?

Geshtalt said...

I realise I'm running the risk of seeming that I feel I have to justify myself, but I'm going to post to answer some specific points.
True, I haven't (yet) maxed my enchanting, or buckled my belt. But I also haven't yet tried to enter ICC. Or in fact, anything higher than Naxx. And while I know that Gev and co has proven that ICC is doable in blues, as someone who has been out of raiding for ~12 months I don't have the recent experience or confidence to try tricks like that. Reading and watching the tactics online is one thing, but it is is nothing compared to actually seeing the content firsthand.
When I feel that I have 'enough' gear to not be a burden in the group (by which time I will have finished my enchanting), I will socket whatever belt I have at that time - which may be my current belt, but it may not - before heading in.

Chris said...

@ Duskstorm:

The lower the ilvl of the item, the more of the power of that piece is locked up in that gemslot. You are gimping yourself by a greater amount using bad gems in bad gear than using bad gems in good gear.

Just use epic gems/enchants.

This brings up another odd point, that I think would make a good subject of study Gevlon:

Why do people cheap out on stuff like gems and enchants in wow? I will personally spend every last copper on an upgrade/gem/enchant, because the value of warcraft gold is the power it can add to your character, why do people try not to 'go broke' and gimp their character in the process?

Drilski said...

@Duskstorm: all PvP gear deserves the best gems and the best (or close to it) enchant. Either you're too poor to afford gems/enchants in which case you're a lazy asshat, or you cba, in which case I reiterate my previous statement. Maximize the bonuses available.

Magma said...

I, personally, start enchating and gemming any item that is 219 or higher. Even if I know I'll replace it quite soon, 219 just seems like a good place to me.

Andru said...

@ Duskstorm

I am of the firm opinion that any piece of gear that you raid in deserves the very best enchant, regardless of whether it's still a green, or not.

Case in point. My tanking crab trinket, which I still used after the epic gems patch, got epic gems. It didn't matter that is was a lowly ilevel 200 blue. It didn't matter that gems cost 300-400 gold when they first came out.

I've always read this skill>gear nonsense. And that learning to play is a better time investment than farming gold for epic gems.

While it's mostly true, it's very much a red herring fallacy. Skill cannot be measured. You can't go 'grind' EJ forums for 3 hours and state: "Now I'm 18.35% better than before!" It just doesn't work that way. Gear, however, DOES work that way.

Gear enhancement is the easiest and most obvious way of character advancement, particularly when it's easily measurable. Also, it can be seen (observed by other strangers) before the raid.

Skill cannot ever be observed by other strangers before a raid.

Also, cheap gems and enchants (or none at all) scream M&S from a mile away. It doesn't matter if you're Kungen. In a game where no one knows you, and no one owes you anything, it's especially stupid to keep yourself up on the goodwill of the raid leader.

This is still a social game, and manipulating the RL into thinking that you're competent is way more important than being competent, but being absolutely bad at showing it.

Of course, the ideal solution would be to be competent and show it.

Andru said...



Wrong mindset for a tank. Never get in a position to condition your performance potential on your experience.

The slightly long solution is to acknowledge that there are two unlinked characteristics of a tank. Tanking potential, and tanking skill.

Let me say this again. They are UNLINKED. I can be a terrible tank in good gear or a good one in bad gear.

However, putting a conditional between those two attributes is severely gimping yourself for several reasons:

1. You will not EVER be ready. Never. There will always be new stuff to learn. Admitting to yourself that you always learn is certainly more liberating than trying to reach an elusive, non-reachable skill threshold, or skill cap.

2. It's a self-defeating argument: Because your gear is not improved, you're constantly reminded of your imagined inadequacy. Yes, imagined.

3. It's plainly wrong for a logical reason. If I, as a person, am weak at playing football, I do not go play football barefooted until I've become the new Maradona and then go buy football shoes. I gear up appropriately, so that the gear covers my butt when my inadequacies become obvious.

Learning and gearing up are independent. Always remember that.

Andru said...

Oh and also.

Please spec into JOTJ.

Every time a paladin tank doesn't spec Judgement of the Just, a boss kills a baby paladin tank.

Usually the baby paladin tank killed is the one who didn't spec JOTJ in the first place.

Wilson said...


Andru is 100% correct. You become a better tank by tanking challenging content, not by waiting until you have better gear. If you get an opportunity to tank ICC, take it! (but yeah, repsec and pick up JotJ). I'd be comfortable following you in. You'll make mistakes, and maybe cause some wipes, but that's how you get better.

My reason for bringing all this up is that Gevlon has been claiming that his guild is awesomesauce and people should join because of the arbitrary rules. Then yesterday he holds you up as an example of why people should join his guild, even though you don't conform to those arbitrary rules. I'm telling him he needs to make up his damn mind.

Gevlon said...

Wilson, you definitely have some reading difficulites. Where are the rules you are mentioning? I can't find them.

Quixotic said...

"There are NO guilds that are not trying to raid. There are just guilds who FAIL to raid."

This is simply not true. The main example is PVP guilds. My original comment, by the way, was in reference to: "...and there are many players who are not in a guild or his guild does not raid, so the base is much bigger. I would dare to guess we are in the top 20% already..."

Andru said...


PvP guilds do raid, or rather players in PvP guilds MUST raid.

Are you aware that the PvP meta-game right now involves the OP heroic trinkets from ICC, the weapons from there, (Mainly HC Bryntrol and Shadowmourne of course), and sometimes the 2p T10 Sanctified or Heroic Sanctified.

Good PvP players will raid for this. Bad PvP players...well, not them, but you cannot just claim that all PvP players don't raid.

Maybe not the PvP guilds, but the players in them usually tag along with highly progressed guild alt runs. (that can, at this point, clear up to 7/12 HC ICC 25)

Anonymous said...

Andru, these are the people who PuG. And there really aren't that many items that every good pvper wants to wear, depending on class of course.