Greedy Goblin

Wednesday, June 30, 2010

Walking in the shoes of the naysayers

It started as something new and interesting. Treeston from the guild announced on the calendar an Ulduar 25 run. Ulduar is a great instance and I haven't been there in 25 man almost a year. Back then I was paying 5K for a close-to-top guild for a 1/week spot. In the summer they had issues with filling the raid, so I could come more. I really liked Ulduar. It looked like an interesting change from ICC. And I wanted a revenge on Mimiron. I wiped 77 times on Firefighter and wasn't present on the kill. Now FF will go down for sure!

Ignis the Furnace master died surprisingly long. OK, we got the achievement, but still. Then I checked the damage meter. Last Saturday Ulatekso pulled 5500DPS in blue gear with 10 man buffs. If we substract the 25% ICC buff, that's 4400. Now these wonders recruited from the trade chat did (with 25 man buffs):

Then came XT-002 with the necessary heartbraker achievement. Or not, because the hearth was on 15% when the time was up. In ICC gear, with heroism. Something told me that I won't have firefighter today.

Along came Antechamber where the RL made the capital mistake of skipping a trashpack. Never ever do it if the group is not 100% guild! 7 people were alive when we finally killed the last iron dwarf.

Assembly of Iron died 30 secs before enrage. Unlike the 10 people who died to rune of doom (a big yellow mark on the ground) in the first minute. Unlike the other 7 who died to un-interrupted lightning whirls and tendrils. I was on top of interrupts. As healer. During the 8 minutes while alive (I died after ran oom.) I was trying to keep the people alive and my gut reaction was "I need more gear". If only I had 5% more haste the heal would arrive in time. If only I had 100 more SP the riptide HoT would keep him up for 3 more secs. If I had 100 more MP5 there would be point in running away from tendrils instead of saving the DPS standing in it and dieing to it. If only I had more gear we wouldn't be 8 manning this!

Then it hit me. I was here before. In 213-226 gear. With a similarly geared group. And we were alive. On hard mode. It wasn't the missing 5% haste or the 100SP or the MP5. It was the damn idiots standing in a huge yellow circle or a cloud of storm and not interrupting his cast. The proper way of doing it is not outhealing mark of death. It's not standing in it. But still, my gut reaction was that my gear is not good enough.

In that moment I understood the "cult of Festergut". I could understand how can someone not believe that a blue geared group can kill a hard-enraging boss in the second wing of the current tier instance. If my 5700GS gear is not enough to heal a 226 instance, how could a 3300GS person heal a 40K HP tank against 3 inhale Festergut?! If a bunch of 5500+GS DPS cannot kill the heart of XT, how could a bunch of 3300 kill Festergut before enrage?!

I know that my gut reaction is wrong because I did Assembly hard mode when it was current content. But what if someone has never been in a decent guild? How could he know that it's not OK?! I mean if one DPS does half of the others, he is an idiot or a very new player. But if they are all in the same range, their performance is by definition normal. How could a newbie who got invited to a "casual" guild know that while the people hit the standard of the guild, this standard is terrible itself?! Isn't it easier to believe that those who do hard modes are no-lifers?

Walking in the shoes of a "need more gear" person made me understand the Undergeared-naysayers. They are not bad people. They are not morons. They are just drowning in the sea of M&S, and - since they never been in better guilds - can't even see that their guildmates are terrible and no gear can save them.

Still, while I no longer resent the naysayers, their terrible guild is no excuse for them. If I managed to break out, if all the people in the good guilds could break out, then the naysayers can do it too. The evidence that such performance is bad is out there. You can see guilds doing several hard modes in ICC. You can see people soloing bosses you wipe on. You can see Undergeared. You must look further than your "friends" and see that not all people are in the "normal range" of your guild. You must see that your guild suck and no matter how hard you try, no matter how much gear you farm, you can't save them. No one can be saved from his own stupidity! You must leave them! The summer is coming, great guilds will struggle filling their ranks. Apply! If you are in the EU, you can come to The PuG too, we are already 115 and meant to be save haven from M&S without attendance requirement.

As soon as I realized that these people are not my team but trade chat trash, the experience changed from terrible to a "walk in the zoo". Instead of desperately trying to keep firedancers alive, I focused on the good players and watched the environment and the chat. (please note that people were screened before invite so gemless, 0/0/71, "inv me imba rog 6K GS" were not present)
  • "sry g2g eat" in the middle of a fight? Check!
  • "why inviting nabs with no gear u need 5500+ for Udluar"? Check!
  • Every late-runner to Hodir bringing jormungars? Check!
  • Tank in top 5? Check!
  • DPS below hunterpet? Check!
  • Healer below shadowpriest? Check!
  • "lol why u fail" from someone of the above three? Check!
  • DC after wipe? Check!
  • Newly invited person leaving instantly with "sry g2g"? Check!
  • Finally: did you know the raidboss ability that can separate guildies from trade-pugs? It's called flash freeze (we wiped to enrage of course):
I left the trade chat PuGs and the guilds where these PuGs come from long ago. I needed to be reminded how this game look like for someone who is still among M&S. It renewed my efforts to drag people out from this crap, to show them as many ways as possible that just because your "friends" fail, failure is not OK and you are not doomed to fail!

I won't go to any raid with random retards. Most probably 25 man Ulduar will be out of the wishlist until enough people will be available. However 10-man version of it is definitely something I'll try to organize. Great content is better for me than replacing a 251 to 264. And as the lowbies grow up, we can fill a 25 man raid with people who can actually use the Ulduar gear, yet do better job than the 6K GS trade chat trash.

PS: as a reward for reading this wall of text, a good laugh


Victor Praxedes said...

it's always sad to farm random heroics and see 2k and less DPS from people with 4000GS, below the tank in almost every trash AoE pulls. if you try to say something, they get all defensive and the other casuals will support him as well, ending on you being kicked for being an "asshole".

your post kind of inspired me, i'm going after a good guild asap. just got tired of bad players.

Anonymous said...

great post :) very comical!!

Anonymous said...

Sorry to hear about your experience. Been trying to make a Uld 10 drake run on my realm for a while now but unfortunately almost every leaves once we wipes on FL, which seems to be a given no matter what we do.

Sean said...

Pretty hilarious! I especially like the "walk in the zoo"

Btw, in case people are doubting Gevlon, what he says is true. In my hardmode guild (8/12 ICC25), it is very different to an M&S guild.

If I'm in a weak group, then yes, I would need my current gear (6.1k GS) to be able to carry the group.

nonameform said...

For gearing up, Ulduar is bad. I haven't done any raiding content on my alt apart from few weekly quests (mostly Naxxramas) and according to Blizzard's raid browser, I'm already geared for ICC 25 (i.e. I can queue for it using that useless tool).

On the other hand, as a raid instance Ulduar is quite refreshing after half a year of ICC. We made a comeback to Ulduar to finish off some achievements there recently. Believe it or not, as a member of the guild that did Yogg with one keeper up and Algalon when it was current content, I didn't have "Cheese the Freeze (25 player)" and I'm still missing "Don't Stand in the Lighting (25 player)". It's not because I missed the raids. It's because we never managed to get those before (not that we were trying hard, but those should be your regular kill achievements, like "The Orb Whisperer" in ICC). I'm also missing "Getting Cold in Here" and "If Looks Could Kill", which are very easy too and don't require anything else, but focus. Of all the raids available at level 80, Ulduar still seems the best one. Even though it's not really that connected to LK theme (Blizzard wants us to believe that Ulduar makes sense in this expansion, but it's not making any), the fights are very different and interesting. For example, in ICC it took us one evening to clear first wing when it came out, Rotface/Festergut took us 1-2 attempts each, Blood Prince Council - 2 attempts, Valithria was quite fast too. That sort of fast progression in Ulduar wasn't possible for my guild. Not that players were less skillful (they were as awful as they're now), but the content actually required people to be more concentrated on what's going on around. I remember how Vezax got several million of healing from Mark of the Faceless just because people didn't move fast enough and how we had people failing a lot on Shadow Crashes, so that when our RL went nuts we got "Shadowdodger (25 player)" all of a sudden.

As for judging your performance by meters, I never did so back in TBC (started playing when SWP was already out). However, in WotLK I moved from a social guild level to the first guild on Horde side (second-third guild on realm, with the top Alliance guild on realm being from different "league"). In guild my performance is great/good/OK, but on a bigger scale, compared to the top guilds from other realms, I miss several thousand DPS on some fights. I honestly don't know, where that difference comes from. Maybe it's my lack of skill or the server-client lag which is terrible in my battlegroup. Maybe it's just "need better gear issue". However, I did make it to top 20-30 on WOL on some fights at about 10-15% buff without doing anything special (no PI chaining, no ToTT), and that made me think that I'm not that bad, if I was that high between top raiding shadow priests in the world. I didn't repeat those numbers later, but to be honest I can't care less. Being in top 3-5 in guild on most fights is quite fine by me.

Jeanie said...

Out of curiousity, why was your gut reaction "if only I have more gear" rather than "if only I react 5% faster, if only I min/max for those 5% mp5 and sp"? I mean, I know the very common reaction in the situation would be "I need more gear", but why do we all have that thought instead of thinking "if only we could be better".
To a social, that's easy to explain: he would never thought that he's bad. But to a presumably anti-social like you, why not? Is that because you've done 100% of your abilities and can't improve? Or is that because you thought you've done your part good enough that the other should step up? I know that you've done the content while it was the current content, so it's safe to qualified you as good enough. Still, it doesn't mean that you can't improve, and in a teamwork when one team member is slightly behind, one other must slightly step up for the work to be done. When a striker miss the goal, he ought to thought "damn I should have done the shot better", not "oh @#@$ I need better shoes"
That said, I'm not advocating social behaviour of carrying M&S here, just your gut reaction was weird to me: in my 2 years of raiding career, I've never have that kind of gut reaction.

Anonymous said...

Interesting post.

I find it surprising that even after this long, your first gut reaction was that it was still gear that stopped you.

I do feel what you are saying though. I was in a guild that was continuously wiping to Rotface due to the same people failing at kiting the oozes each time. I voiced my concerns, and then finally left the guild to start my own. That didn't go so well, but I found a guild that DOES suit my purposes better.

We aren't gear focused (yay!) but stupidity is not tolerated. People crying "Why didn't I get loot I am doing 10k dps QQ" get gkicked pretty quickly. People who don't show up, and people who underperform (stay in the fire) don't get raid invs back. And then why they don't logon for 2 weeks because they don't get raid invs get gkicked.

Part of me wonders if I left that first guild because of reading your posts (long time reader) or what... but I guess it's interesting to note that gear still feels so "important" even to someone like yourself who has proven time and time again that gear isn't important.

Good luck with your future 25s.

Chopsui said...

This was a good read. I may just roll an alt on that pug server to see things happen.

Anonymous said...

I absolutely love (hate) how GS has become the new equalizer for raid invites. Personal ability, skill and raid experience have taken a perpetual and forced backseat to a number that does little beyond proving that you managed to acquire some gear.

You will enjoy this Gevlon: I have been PvP'ing a lot lately. My PvP GS is about 5,600, and my PvE GS is about 5,200. I have responded to several requests in trade chat for "LFM ICC 5.6KGS min plz! PST!". I have been invited to two groups so far IN PVP GEAR. I have RAIDED IN PVP GEAR. I have killed ICC bosses (at least first wing) IN PVP GEAR. And no one batted an eyelash, or bothered to inspect me to see what I was wearing, as long as my GS was lol,5,600,lol.

The best part: I out-healed every healer except for a tree who managed to occasionally out-heal me in group-heal fights.

Breevok said...

Thank you Gevlon - You made me actually LOL in its true meaning.

I am glad you have moved through into the 'walk in the zoo' mindset. There is many a post there for you - just how low can you find is a daily joy that now awaits you

Anonymous said...

Great entry, though frustrating at the same time. I, once, was in one of those guilds that did not perform very well. Better than most M&S-PuGs, but still not well. I admired the people clearing end game content while we wiped on Hodir. Yet I thought, we were a pretty good bunch of people that just needed practice. Along came lots of drama and I eventually left the guild, knowing at that point that I wanted "more". Shortly after, I joined one of the top guilds of the server and it was such a great feeling to clear ToGC25 in an hour, ICC in 1-2 evenings (4-hour-raid each). It was great, I loved it. But now I have a huge problem. I left that guild since I didn't have enough time for raiding anymore and now my standard is just so high, nearly every PuG I join could make me cry. How can people not dps snowbolds on Gormok? Why do they just keep standing in fire? And so on. I saw a piece of heaven there and am now facing the fact that (so it seems) 90% of WoW's playerbase are complete idiots. This may sound like a lot of QQ, but I guess, many "good" players sometimes feel like this.
I hope I'll be able to find either a decent guild with a more casual raiding schedule or a nice regular PuG, but I'm somehow pessimistic about that. Right now, your PuG seems like the only answer to my problems ^^

Umrtvovacz said...

I would love to join your guild so much, I want to be free from M&S, too bad you are alliance side. I just leveled Tauren Druid for the reason of switching from Alliance to Horde, but I am seriously thinking about finishing quests and other faction-specific content and transferring to your server while changing faction to join you. Problem is that such money is kinda hefty amount for student in Czech Rep. Maybe after I get my payroll. Hope to see you in-game, mighty Gevlon. I am reading your blog basically from the beginning, when you gave me many advices how to make gold, so I would love to have the opportunity to finally play with you.

Vinnyj said...

From the way you described the invitation process, it seems like at least some of these people in your group were from the guild itself. How much time will you give them to get their act together before they are removed from the guild? And when they are, how do you make sure they don't re-join the guild? This could get problematic once you get a few 100 people in the guild.

Fierydemise said...

Great post. I'm sure most people were there (in the cult of gear) once. Back when ulduar was relevant content I was and since I'd done a little more research on my class then most idiots you find in trade chat (that is to say any research at all) and my gear was legitimately gemmed and enchanted I would out dps them and I thought I was hot stuff. So I applied to a better guild on ther server who brought me in for hodir hardmode attempts and after about 10 wipes I receive whisper saying "I'm sorry but you are the weakest dps in here, we're going to replace you" and I was. Thankfully the GM gave me another chance and now knowing that I wasn't the pro I thought I was I worked at it and became a much better player.

All it takes is one person showing you that you aren't as good as you think you are to create a good player. A bad player will make excuses for their performance but any player who accepts that they could be better has the potential to be a good player.

ardoRic said...

On my MMO-Champion thread about there was a time when things de-railed a bit to the implications of in the expectations of how far a PuG of properly geared characters should be able to go.

Someone came up with the brilliant argument that "you don't know the people, so you need them to have gear to compensate for their stupidity" (this is a paraphrasing of the argument, not an actual quote)

My opinion is, of course, that no amount of gear can compensate for such gruesome amounts of stupidity like the ones you seem to have encountered in a 2-tier outdated raid. I respond to that argument with: "You argue you need gear to compensate for stupidity, I argue that you shouldn't take stupid into your raids".

Which is the goal of The PuG: having a non-moronic player base to gather a group from.

It seems to work.

Anonymous said...

Absolutely 100% TRUTH

We do our 25 mans during the week and run 10's on weekends. Since I was busy over the weekend I missed our 10's and was stuck with pugging. I offered my healing services in trade Monday night and was immediately picked up. To make a long story short I don't carry a gearscore addon because I never needed it till now. All but one of these jokers were doing under 5K dps, guild average is 11K in 25's with buff, and they were bragging about their dps. I politely bowed out after Saurfang and didn't say a word about their performance - didn't have the heart to tell them I could out dps all of them in my healing gear.

I didn't think you could do it either, but took your advice a month ago and got picked up by a top 10 guild on our server. You're right and I will never look back.

Adrius said...

All I kept thinking through most of the run was that our guild killed XT HM on 25th May 09 and Hodir HM on 10th May 09 in gear that... Well I am not even going to go there. Was an interesting run indeed, the ZOO comparison fits well. :)

//OK I wasnt thinking the exact dates, was just thinking May 09 but looked them up in the middle of wipes on Hodir. :P

Fetzie said...

I agree with you (for once :P).

Every time I run ICC25 with my alts I am wishing I was on my main in the hardmode crew. Heck, the 4 weeks between my previous guild dissolving and the one I am now in were enough to make me consider quitting the game. Seeing these 20% buffed full 251/264 players wipe to festergut normal with another 10% boss when he hit the berserk was simply depressing when my guild in pretty much the same gear would kill him with the 10% buff with over a minute to spare.

Randoms do not see their obligation to actually do something every second of the boss fight. moving, doing damage, whatever. Your IC-25 kill 10 seconds before the berserk shows this perfectly. A kill back in 219/226 took about 5 minutes, your ICC geared pug took twice the time.

Our social environment defines us in our expectations of others and expectations of ourselves. If you spend your entire life in an area where the local football team is the best around then you will look at arsenal london or ManUtd and think "what a load of overpaid idiots" when they thrash you in the cup championship. If you do not know what it is like in a raid guild - this does not need to be a top 100 region guild, just progressing at a decent pace in the current hardmode content - then the behaviour in a 6/12 pug is what you can aspire to, you do not have the incentive to do the 10k dps you could do if the top dps is pulling 8k. I had a rogue who pulled 4500 dps at festergut 25, after telling him his rotation he did 8k. Still not perfect but this shows what some players are capable of.

The only really successful pugs are those recruited from raid guilds' alts. People who know every second of a boss fight by heart, and know how to react when something goes wrong. Everyone else is the sort to stand in rune of death even with the voice comm yelling "get the f out of there!"

I cannot help thinking that there are some brilliant players who see what random groups can manage and simply quit before they begin. If I hadn't got into my new guild I would have quit because of pugs, and I have been raiding current content since summer 2005.

Harrumph said...

Interesting Post Gevlon

Although I am somewhat confused about the large amount of emotion you displayed. Also, if I dare say it, your tone was somewhat... Altruistic?

Doing ICC10 normal in blues, and LK25 HC with a 5% buff (in gear worse than what most raiders have nowadays) is clearly a demonstration that there are different levels of players. Anyone with access to this information is able to see it.

Those who still play with the "LFM 55K GS TOC10 BADGE RUN W ARCHI OR NO INV" are too stupid to find information and realize the logical conclusion - There MUST be players who are better than this, and I shouldn't need to be stuck here with these idiots.

Someone who fails to realise this surely is no better than an M&S?

Anonymous said...

"But what if someone has never been in a decent guild?"

I think this is a very good question, and a reason why pugs are mostly so bad right now.
In TBC most people that were interested in PvE were in serious guilds, and they pugged mostly because of spot rotation, or their guild simply focused on other instances this week. I managed to organize pugs that were clearing 5/6 ZA, 2/4 TK and 3/6 SSC, and that was on a server on which only a few guilds killed any bosses in MH or BT.
Now much of the content is so easy that people join guilds only for social reasons, and pugs are their main route of progress, and puggers from good guilds are minority.

In other words, most of the people that pug now are the same people that have never been in a raid in TBC, or maybe seen a few bosses in kara.

That's why I think it's good blizz puts more focus on guilds in cata, cause i believe being forced to do some teamwork with your guild again instead of going straight for pugs will improve the average skill at least a bit. Right now, the game is simply too much solo friendly to expect people to do good when in a team.

AKA Tha Schust said...

You call members of "The PuG" guildies - yet isn't it part of "The PuG" to disregard the notion of a guildie for raiding?

caerphoto said...

Ulduar is a great raid instance, I agree, and I love the fact that many of the encounters can't be out-geared even now. It's a great place to weed out the useless people.

I recently downloaded GearScore, and I'm quite fond of the Recount plugin it comes with that lists people in order of damge-per-GS.

Anonymous said...

In my previous guild I was one of the top dps. Constantly one of the top three. By any measure I had available to me at the time, I was a good player and things were going well.

That guild disbanded and I moved onto another and I was no longer in the top 3. I was the guy just above tank dps.

My first instinct was needing better gear but it was wrong. I needed to learn to play at a higher level.

It look time, much more than I would like. But I can now out dps the other mages. I've come to accept that I'll never be top 3 in this guild, but I can compete for 5th.

I never would have known however if my previous guild hadn't disbanded and within the next week I bumped into a friend in my current guild who recruited me.

Anonymous said...

Best post you've had in awhile! (imo)

You are absolutely correct about a majority of players simply not realizing how bad their personal and guild's (or pugs) dps is. Being in a high-end guild its become comically typical for new recruits who were accustomed to being in the top 3 of the DPS meters in their old guild to suddenly find themselves ranking somewhere 14th-16th on the meters in our raids!

Of course the good ones will improve and learn, the bad ones will usually just disappear...

Denethal said...

Sometimes, it's useful to return to the shoes of the "noob", just to see how progressed you have become as a player.

But most of the time, it is just a good reminder why you prefer not raiding with them.

Anonymous said...

What if I can't get above the M&S?
I am on grizzly hills-US, one of the worst 8 in the US I believe. We are second worst in our battlegroup, and I would not like to waste money on a transfer. Am I stuck in M&S or is there a way out other than rerolling?

Wilson said...

Oh noes! Gevlon has exposed my deep dark secret - my guild is a bunch of scrubs, no better than a random group pulled out of trade chat. We parade around Dalaran in our emblem gear all day, hoping someone will be impressed, and wipe repeatedly on Basic Campfire. I am so happy he understands my poor plight, and now feels pity instead of resentment, else I would need to run and hide in a corner from the shame of it all.

Or perhaps my (incorrect) predictions about Festergut came from looking at Gevlon's own logs. If you go back to the Patchwerk fight, the highest dps was 3300. Against XT, Chopsui did 3700 but most people were below 3000. With a 20% buff, most of the dps was still below 4000 on Festergut. There are a couple of very skilled people in Undergeared who made the Festergut kill possible, but they are the exception, not the rule. Had they not chosen to join, then the naysayers would have been right. Had they been present back at Patchwerk, then the predictions for Festergut probably would have been different.

TechDeft said...

Oh how I miss Uld. I'm sold, I'm signing up for EU account and rolling a toon this weekend. Now if only I already had EU account to transfer a toon from.

Kristophr said...


The people who first downed Uld did it in 200-213 gear.

How can anyone in ICC gear fail to roflstomp Uld?

Retards who stand in crap and don't review the fight, I guess. I must be spoiled by having competent guildies. If I stand in crap, my healers will let me die and laugh at me. I try not to stand in crap now.

Letting screwups die is an act of kindness. They either learn to stop it, or they go away. Or I raise them as Zombie allies, and their DPS goes up.

Too bad yer in Europe ... looks like you might be building a competent guild.

Imraith Dos Santos said...

I wish I was EU...I would join PuG in a heartbeat!

Bobbins said...

And now you feel sorrow for your critics? Lol, truly vicious.

I looked at some of the dpses and they do not look like 5.5k+ GS but you obviously checked so they were :).

Also I liked they way you fought to keep the other 24 alive dispite themselves. Truly epic.

On a more serious note the post did seem awfully negative and it is perhaps unfair to compare the pug with an organised guild run. I bet there were many positives with the run as well as negatives.
Good going for the raid leader for organising the 25 man event.

PS. As you state the raid didn't fail for the lack of gear it was more inexperience/knowledge so why make it an issue.
Cough! Undergeared group mention. Cough! Of which you are rightly proud.

Tonus said...

I wonder if any of those M&S were also people who were carried through content at some point, before their guilds realized that they were awful and booted them. You mention that the naysayers are affected by their experiences. I figure that the most obnoxious of the M&S (the "LOL u no skill, 4400 GS is suk") probably got carried through some content and figured that it was pretty easy.

So for those players, when things are going badly because they are in a group of players that are just like them, it's not their fault that the raid wipes. It's the other players. He cannot be a bad player, because he beat this content before!

Slandyr said...

I'm a bit confused...was this a 25-man raid with nothing but The PuG raiders, or was it comprised of trade-recruited people?

Regardless, I know the "If only my gear were better..." feeling all too well. I spend most of my raiding time healing, and this is the most common role where "gear fails the player" syndrome occurs. You're in charge of keeping people alive, after all, no matter what. Standing in fires, allowing the boss more swings on the tank because they aren't standing behind the boss, and any other number of common failures shouldn't enter the equation. You are a healer. When they take damage, it's your job to make it go away. If they die, it's YOUR FAULT for not healing them.
It sucks...but eventually you get over it once you realize that you went OOM because the people you were healing were either careless in their gear/spec choices, or careless with their raid awareness. Once you realize that Blizzard will NEVER design a fight that cannot be healed through, you lose the guilt.

I had a brief exposure to a hardcore raiding guild in TBC and their methods taught me quite a bit about being a responsible member of the raid.

Responsibility was knowing the fights, bringing your own consumables, knowing your class/spec, proper gems/enchants, and listening to your raid leader. Even then, that didn't make you qualified to raid...that just put you on the list of people that COULD receive an invite depending on raidcomp needs.

I'm no longer in that hardcore guild, nor do I raid all that often. I'm in a strictly casual guild made up of real-life friends and a smattering of friend-of-a-friend people. We'll occasionally raid a 10-man, but most of the time we're left to our own devices if we choose to raid. That means the /trade raids.

Nowadays, it seems the only qualifier for being a "good" responsible raider is an achievement link and a high gearscore.

My Gearscore is hardly adequate to make it into the "5500 GS+, no scrubs, link achiev" raid recruiting that happens in trade.

When I DO raid, I'm usually very depressed that my "undergeared" shaman is so close to the top DPS spots (or healing, depending on the spec I'm needed for)
This is in raids with 5800GS+ "elite" players. I'm almost a full 1000 below this score-wise.

I suppose the most depressing part isn't that I didn't save the raid because my sub-optimal gear failed me.

It's not that I maintain my hit and expertise caps in favor of a small ilevel increase that'd put me below cap, but increase my gearscore.

It's not that I could have much greater numbers if I "applied myself" by grinding heroics for the best Emblem gear along with raiding every raid instance every week for upgrades.

What truly makes me depressed is that even if I were to work on improving my gear, it would only qualify me to raid with the M&S PuGs from /trade.
Gearing up to join the ranks of failures, frustrations, and headaches? How does this make sense? It doesn't...which is why I'm far from concerned with upgrades.

I'd rather raid once every 3 weeks and enjoy it than raid 3 times a week and loathe the idiots that I'm grouped with.

Treeston said...

@Bobbins: Thanks. I plan on doing the same thing next monday at 18:30.

If you want to do some more interesting raids, join The PuG!

@Umrtvovacz: I am mainly a Horde player aswell. While in Tree Form, I still pretend to be a tauren. I still run into the Horde quarter in Dalaran.

Anonymous said...

"Which is the goal of The PuG: having a non-moronic player base to gather a group from.

It seems to work."

Yes. That's the main reason for having a guild. You know, people were doing content before "The PuG".

Kurt said...

" "Which is the goal of The PuG: having a non-moronic player base to gather a group from.

It seems to work."

Yes. That's the main reason for having a guild. You know, people were doing content before "The PuG"."

Woosh, over your head goes the point. The majority of guilds don't try to form a "non-moronic player base to gather a group from", they try to form a "non-moronic group with mandatory attendance minimums". There are, as multiple people have already pointed out, other somewhat puggish groups or runs that were already enjoying success in the past. None of those other groups had exactly the same rules as THE PUG, so they don't prove the same points. If you read carefully, you notice how most of those other successful pug-like groups still maintain some formal and informal attendance rewards, instead of trying as hard as the pug does to make each run separate from the prior ones. I expect that THE PUG will eventually develop either formal or informal attendance rewards as well, although probably less than any of their forebears.

Rigor said...

I'm pretty curious of why do you assume that all your naysayers are from terrible guilds used with low standards.

Anonymous said...

Enjoyed this post very much. Getting away from poor players is part of my motivation in soon starting my own guild. I'm not the best, but part of what makes me good (I think) is that I am TRYING to be a better player. I'm trying to squeeze all I can out of my gear, and my abilities. And frankly, I'm currently in a guild that doesn't have that same goal. They are kind of casual about it - and that's fine. It's just not comfortable. I want to be in a group where I feel comfortable saying "Wait, did you really just say we need a 'zombie kiter' for the Deathwhisper fight?" (happened.) Or, at least a group that will say "No, we are not carrying your alt through this progression fight."


To one commenter about 4k gs and 2k random heroic DPS: You can't compare all DPS classes on this basis. At least, if you are going to, I hope you are looking at boss DPS and not trash. In a random pug, Melee DPS will always drive my caster's DPS into the dirt. I'm not trying to make excuses - just pointing out the facts. Now, if your DPSer is just standing around with a thumb up their bum...

"Gearscore" is the worst thing to happen to the game, really. It isn't a reflection of skill at all. I've seen someone in gear far better than mine (Avaryse, Wyrmrest Acord if you wanna look) do far less DPS, soak up far more healing (as a DPS), and just plain... suck.

Anonymous said...

Although with all the gearscore crap going on, there is one threshold for a person to be truly skilled. Since you cannot hit 6.2K+ gearscrore without a decent amount of 277 ICC hardmode gear, you can safely assume that they are skilled and geared. This is probably the only time I would agree that gearscore does equate to your skill.

Louise said...

Just found your blog, starting to wish I had rerolled on your realm for my gold making project.

Keep up the good work

Anonymous said...

Having seen Halion 25 last night on release I wanted to add this as well as I feel it matches your existing post.

I am a fairly decently geared DK tank. I'm not super awesome - I am still only around 45k, and buff out to around 55k, and 37k armor (70% melee damage reduction.)

Having run ICC 25 a lot lately, and having a 20/25% health buff (so around 65-70k HP) plus healers having 20% healing has made people LAZY. This includes myself.

Halion showed how lazy. In 3 GCD's I can go from 100% to dead. I don't know why this has happened - but part of me was thinking it was my gear or the healer's gear.

It wasn't. It was just bad playing :(

Venoym said...

I'm going to be a little more greedy than most that comment here... What the heck do you use for dps chart? I've been looking for an addon just like that for a while.

At least since we had a rogue that would do 4K dps in Naxx gear.. until she died in the first 15 seconds from pulling agro and then went AFK the rest of the time and yet would proclaim her "4K DPS lol".

Karigg said...

Rather impressive you managed to find a group failing that hard.

I try not to expose myself to the "zoo" very often, but of course it's present in every level of raid. I've only just come back to the game so I'm sitting a good 600 gs behind my 10 man guild and I'm discovering a new sensation. Instead of feeling good when I top dps, I feel bad and disappointed because I know that it's my competition that's failing rather than me playing well.

Skill > gear.