Greedy Goblin

Sunday, February 7, 2010

Mean guys of the week

You think the 900 DPS morons are just new players in need of help? Rashemaar-Dawnbringer-US gave this option a shot and offered help to the DK tank who whined on /trade that he is kicked from HCs. So he pointed out that spellpower gem is not the best for a death knight tank. The new player gratefully took the advice:

I told you it's going to happen, but you did not listen. Now here is the evidence: Vanhealin on Shadowsong-US met someone who literally AFK-ed on heroic. They were really mean: misdirected the boss on him, making him leave.


Brian said...

Here's what I find most interesting about people who say it's "mean" to call out bad players...those bad players are being WAY more mean, and way bigger jerks to the rest of the group. While it may not be the goblin way, I can sympathize with people who are willing to be nice to others when it doesn't gain them anything. But when we're talking about players who intentionally waste 4, 9 or 24 other people's time...there is NOTHING wrong with calling them out on it, even if you're a "nice guy". Why? Because they AREN'T being nice or social, they are the "mean guys".

In this blog, Gevlon frequently calls bad players "socials"...but I think there is more to it than that. After all, a real social player wouldn't intentionally waste the time of his fellow players. He might suck, and might want to just "be friends", but if they tell him he's wasting their time, he'll at least feel bad about it. Not so with the other kind of bad player, who not only sucks, but feels ENTITLED to suck, and gets extremely mad at anyone who points that out to him. This kind of player seems more like a sociopath than anything else, apparently not realizing or caring that it's polite to not play an MMO like a single player game.

Of course the "social" players Gevlon talks about do play a part as well, they tolerate the sociopath player and enable him to KEEP playing like that. The reason that kind of player is notably absent from progression guilds isn't that he's bad, it's that those groups don't tolerate people who don't play as part of a team.

What's interesting is that those guilds are frequently also full of nice, friendly folks who have fun with their fellow guildies. Yet they also have no problem ditching people who play poorly or don't make themselves part of the team. To me, this suggests that being a goblin about raiding doesn't mean you have to completely embrace the goblin approach...just enough to not put up with the idiots.

Anonymous said...

Your so called helpful guy was unnecessarily insulting in his attitude. Next time try giving advice without little digs like "no wonder people are not letting you tank" no matter how true it is.

Fact: Most people get defensive when confronted with their failures.

Fact: Most people will not take advice, no matter how good it is, if its in any way judgmental.

Fact: Most successful real life entrepreneurs are very good at getting people do do what they wish them to, by simply understanding human nature and working with it, instead of expecting people to react the way they wish they would.

The old saying of "you can catch more bees with honey, rather then vinegar" very much applies here.

If you wish to be mean, its your prerogative, but you should then be aware of the reactions you will get. Unless of course your "mean" guy was setting up to prove your point that helping is useless and therefore acted in a manner designed to elicit negative reaction on purpose.

The best example of constructive criticism that is courteous, professional and will not make anyone, who is willing to improve, offended in any way is the whisper you get from rankwatch.

Anonymous said...

P.S Death knight in question has bigger problems then spell power gem.

most of his gear is dps gear and his spec could use serious overhaul. Spell power gem as of 2 minutes ago is gone, which tells me that he IS willing to learn even if he gets defensive.

Anonymous said...

The DK does not even have a rune on his weapon.

Anonymous said...

If people are willing to give FREE advice, even if with sarcastic little quips, they are fully entitled to do so.

The other guy can choose to not look a gift horse in the mouth, or they can continue to suck and not listen.

'Real life enterepreneurs' have a vested interest in having others listen to them since if affects their profit.

When the advice is free and not tied into the giver's pockets in any way, it would be detrimental to not only give it, but waste time wrapping it into politically correct crap just so the other guy can take it.

(Because lord knows, if you swing so much as a feather at the general direction of fragile entitled slacker ego, that makes you 'mean' and 'elitist'.)

People should just grow up.

wickEdgirl said...

To the Anon guy with the honey/vinegar proverb: That *might* be true *if* the person you are manipulating could be of some use to you. Of course you dont go with full aggression towards non-opponent people who you deem worthwhile and useful. Those, yes, give them some honey.

But here we are talking about a person who is a) blindly full of himself *and* b) sucks... a) is fine, but when together with b) you get worst kind there is - one that will never ever learn, that will disrupt other members of your group, that will always be a very big, intolerable pain the ass. Constructive criticism does not work on them.

So yes, you say Fuck off and move on.

Anonymous said...

@ the "the slacker doesn't deserve honey" posters

I refer to my last point.

If you are not willing to be helpful, why say anything at all? Giving free advice doesn't make you some sort of video game messiah with license to dole out as many insults as you can manage and still expect people to take your advice seriously. If you are going to insult some stranger's playing ability - do not pretend that you are trying to help them.

When I give out free advice, I have vested interest, I want my future pugs to go smoother. I do not blindly assume that people have thick skins and will be able to discern my intentions and tone of voice through dry text.

But then unlike Gevlon I don't subscribe to theory that its better to ruin the mood of the party and turn it into a squabble with hopes that under performer will be "shamed" into better playing or leaving.

It's one thing to be mean to someone who intentionally creates difficulties for your run. I'd be the first one trying to kill off that AFK guy in Violet hold.

Its quite another to be mean to someone who doesn't know any better and in some cases might even be asking for advice, while pretending you are being helpful and then go "See! See! I told you this loser is beyond all help" when the subject of your "advice" chooses to react in a manner similar to yours.

Anonymous said...

That is ridiculous.

A person either wants to learn or doesn't want to learn.

There is no such thing as 'wants to learn but doesn't want to learn if bad words are used'. That's not an excuse, that's idiocy.

I'd rather be in a group with 4 other elitist jerks that know how to play, or at least aren't afraid to learn when help is given, than 4 freindly nice pplz who behave like they're level 15 in Deadmines and go ballistic when you even closely suggest that anything they do is suboptimal.

You know why elitist jerks are so competent at the game? It's because they have thick skin, are not afraid to ask for advice, and when advice is given they are willing to get to the heart of the issue instead of tiptoe around it, despite it being put in less than pleasant terms.

No one wants to hear: "Bloody noob, don't stay in the flame patch." A good player will recognize that he is a noob and will not sit in the flame patch. A bad player will go "WAH ELITIST BASTARD" and ignore the advice.

Thus, from this point of view it's better to be an 'eternal noob' and recognize your predilection to failure.

Small wonder then that I find your response inflammatory.

If a stranger's playing ability is absymal, what exactly is wrong about insulting it?

Humans are animals: positive feedback = good feeling, negative feedback = bad feeling. Simple.

Anonymous said...

Also, I fail to see where helpful=nice equivalency comes from.

In information theory, information is defined as a quantity that reduces entropy of a system when introduced in that system.

Helpful=informative. (carries information that helps reduce entropy).

Nice or mean = non-informative. (I can talk in a nice way and beat around the bush all day without adding a single byte of information in the system: See: politicians, lawyers.)

Thus nice (or mean for that matter) is neither necessarily nor sufficiently equivalent to informative.

Zeran said...

This is a very interesting discussion however I think the last post (discussing information vs. nice/mean). In my understanding, is missing the point of "mean guys." Gevlon isn't saying we should accuse everyone that makes a mistake of "OMGWTF N00B! L2P!" But rather that we should be mean enough to speak up and say, "Dude, what're you doing? You know 'X', right?"
Mean in this context is informative, whereas quietly carrying the baddie would be nice.

I agree that "mean guys" might be the wrong title, but who would submit / read "helpful informative people that are not well received well"?

Grim said...

Two PUG experiences over the weekend:

1) A guild tank and two guild DPS pugged a healer and a 3rd DPS the daily heroic. I was pulling 4k-ish, our shadowpriest was doing 3k-ish, and the DK was doing 800. After he needed on a blue sword (he was using the 232 axe from H-PoS), we kicked him right before the last boss. The new DPS was in the group 2 minutes, couldn't even zone in because we engaged the boss, and still got credit for the random H-daily.

2) I was pugging on my mid-70's warrior tank and won a need roll on a plate DPS belt. There were two other plate DPS in the group. At the end of the instance, with both plate DPS still in the instance, I offered to let the other plate DPS have the belt if they needed it. PUG plate DPS #1 asks for it and I give it to him. PUG plate DPS #2 starts bitching and moaning that I'm a ninja for need rolling on a plate DPS belt and that he's going to report me. He only started complaining AFTER I offered to give him the belt....

Coeur-de-fer said...

I've run across the same "you should be nice and teach them" argument time and again, both in game and out. The problem remains that almost any information you could want regarding game mechanics has been researched and expounded upon any number of place online, and in much better form than any off-the-cuff explanation I'd give in game. The information is there, but they're not using it. A link to the EJ forums, wowwiki, or whatever is appropriate for the information deficit at hand is quite often the most informative comment you can make.

If you get off on being the mentor/big brother, by all means, take them under your wing, though in my experience, if they're not willing to learn on their own, their progress as a "pupil" is minimal. Whether it's random puggers, or guild members who I, as an officer, have (foolishly) tried to coach, the success rate is abysmal, "nice" presentation or not. Frankly, a substantial portion of the playerbase isn't interested in improving their play and becoming better informed about their hobby if it involves reading and digesting anything more comprehensive than a tweet. After all, that would be "work," and this is supposed to be a game, which apparently means it shouldn't take any thought to play (I suppose chess isn't considered a game anymore). The rest are too busy defending their oh-so-fragile egos, and learning anything constructive would take up the valuable mental resources they need to do so.

Regarding rankwatch being "inoffensive", I've had numerous people get upset about the whisper, insisting that I'm lying to them, or asking if they should leave.

Anonymous said...

Hi guys, I'm Rashemaar, the "mean guy" in the first screen shot. The comments today are interesting and thanks to the guys who are defending my exchange with the DK. If I were honest, I'd admit that I'm a bit of an ass in trade and am probably on more M&S ignore lists than I should be for a bank toon, but this DK was just being annoying in trade.

He was literally whining about groups kicking him for terrible tanking and for fun I looked up his armory profile and immediately saw the gem. Now, my mains are a hunter and shaman, so I know literally 0.01% about tanking, but... even I knew that an SP gem for a DK tank was completely useless. Yes, I could have been nicer to the DK, but I wasn't trying to "catch more flies" I wanted to tell this moron who was filling up trade with his QQ that he sucked for a reason and to stop blaming the groups that he was tanking for, or in his case, attempting to tank for.

tytalus said...

" Brian said...

Here's what I find most interesting about people who say it's "mean" to call out bad players...those bad players are being WAY more mean, and way bigger jerks to the rest of the group. "

This was a great point from the first commenter here, and it's an idea I am trying to use in a guild-of-friends I am in now.

I point out when people want to do certain things and take on certain content, but don't put the work in to get it because that's not 'fun' to them. They want carried! And I do point out, as politely as I can and usually indirectly through the guild leader, that friends shouldn't ask to be carried.

Just trying to use the 'goblinish wisdom' in a social way, and turn social ways back on the socials and the slackers. Even if I am (somewhat) social myself.

Deathturtle Coilfang-US said...

The problem with giving advice to bad players is that you have to be very careful about the way you give that advice out. There's a very fine line between when somebody accepts something as helpful criticism and when someone merely feels that you're insulting them, and it's usually the difference of one word or sentence. If a strength-based melee dps has a spell power gem in, saying "You should take out your spell power gem and put a strength gem in there" will be taken much better then saying something like, "You know that spell power gems suck for your class, right?". If you really want to help bad players, the only way to do that is to be very careful in how you phrase your advice. Yes it sucks, and yes you shouldn't have to pay so much attention to your word choice, but it's human nature and there isn't much you can do about it.