Greedy Goblin

Friday, April 24, 2009

Keeping out of Ulduar

Ulduar is here for more than a week and I have not even peeked into it. Why?

There are some minor reasons like the whole game is a bugfest, until 3.12 or 3.13 we will suck a lot because of bugs. I'm also very busy with my main activity: buying and selling.

But the major reason is not such. It is closely connected to Dueg's analysis. While Ulduar is definitely not Sunwell, and maybe not even BT, but surely not Naxx25. And this will mean lot of broken guilds.

Guilds are rarely a full M&S. There are such, usually recruited in trade with "/w me for inv", but most of the raiding guild is a mixture of skilled players and M&S. The ratio is more or less a function of luck, as the guild is a mixture of applied raiders and random "friends". However the ratio have a lower limit: the instance difficulty. If the M&S is overabundant, the raid fails to down the boss. No loot means frustrated people. Frustrated people means drama. Drama leads to /gquits. If the good players leave, the guild will suck even more, giving even less free loot.

Considering that the M&S is swarming on the servers, except for a few topguilds everyone have their fair share of them. The trap is that while Ulduar maybe tuned for being conquerable by 60% of the playerbase, not 40% of the guilds will fail. 80% will.

The reason is simple: a guild with 33% Ulduar-incapable players will not fail 33%. It will fail 100%. So 3 of such guilds must change, forming 2 guilds with 100% Ulduar-capable people and 1 "friendly social" guild.

My reason for being absent is simple: I don't want to waste my time with the necessary wipes that will force the guild to break. I'll wait until this reforming period is over and then I'll shop around.

My girlfriend have a much simpler criteria. She named 2 guilds in our server and told that if those morons are capable to kill anything else than themselves, she won't waste her time with the content. Her memories about T7 content are still hurt. She went in to Sarth and VoA with her protwarri alt on the day she dinged 80 and main tanked both. She gave a chance with her hunter main too, but being DPS 1st-2nd on her first raid took her remaining motivation. She is fishing, chatting and making money since that.

Ulduar is not going anywhere. It will be here two-three weeks later. Let someone else do the dirty work of cleaning all those guilds from the Ulduar-incapable M&S. It's not my fault that they got in in the first place.

Moral of the story: if your guild also fails (unless you have Sarth+2, it will), don't be hasty to try to fix it or find another. Take a couple of weeks off. When you are back, the picture will be clearer, it will be visible which guilds worth your time.


Anonymous said...

Ah yes I completely Agree Gevlon. I was wondering if Faceroll guilds would have a chance at Ulduar. My Realm, Gundrak, with an Ally Population at any one time between 200-600 MAX, has one Guild that cleared all there was to clear fairly quickly, but yet I have yet to see anybody in Said guild rocking any T8. Me Thinks my server is doomed.
Which raises another issue. If my incredibly low population server does in fact not produce even enough people who aren't considered M&S to be able to complete Ulduar and Eventually Icecrown, does that mean anybody half decent will either Transfer or Re roll on another Realm? My Prediction is that this is exactly what will happen. Has Blizzard ever shut a server down?

LarĂ­sa said...

Oh, reading this makes me so happy about being in a decent guild. I would hate to go fishing when there's a brand new instance to be conqured (even though I can fully understand your decision, since you're guildless as far as I know).

I love to be a part of the team that is cutting it's way through the dense jungle. First week brought us three bosses. Now a new week has started and we got the forth one at the first night. It's a decent pace. Not too quick (where did all the shiny content go?), not to slow (wtf are we a guild of M&S?). I'm proud and excited.

I hope you'll be able to find a decent guild before they've cleared all the content. It's not the same to come to a boss the second time as it was the first time. It never is.

DarkKnight said...

AFAIK Blizz has shut some servers down, mainly when they introduced Russian servers. With free migration to the Russian servers, some already densely Russian populated servers were so low that Blizz forced them to migrate and then shut them down.

But other then that I can't remember. It might just be that they'll try to do the same as they did with EU-Magtheridon and Silvermoon. One of which has full horde and one with full alliance (take a guess who is who ;)), they both had major free migrations for... months to try and get the balance back. (Which still failed, but that's besides the point.)

Anyways, if you want to progress a bit into Ulduar and feel that none of your servers is making that progress, then, yes, I would just prepare for migration. Unless you want to wait it out for Blizz to try and fix it, which might take a while.

Same here, same here. I am happy being in a guild that had server first clearance of 10man Ulduar and now at General Vozax on 25-man. So not too fast and not too slow I would say :).
And indeed, first kills are "magical". So far I have experienced all of Ulduar 25man first kills except Mimiron (Damn it, I don't want to be on the waiting list), and yesterday we killed him again but it just felt... different.

But yeh, I am in luck being on a high populated, far progressed pve server, so if ever my guild fails, I can always move on.

ps. Some might remember me 'moaning' about alt-'M&S'-guild, well, they have killed Flame Leviathan and that's it in 25man. But they have major sign up problems (although some are study related, there is still that disgruntlement Gevlon is onto with the failing).

HP said...

My guild has down Sarth 2D but I feel we have too many M&S to really be competitive in Ulduar...

Alfay said...

Gevlon said:
"I don't want to waste my time with the necessary wipes that will force the guild to break. I'll wait until this reforming period is over and then I'll shop around."

So you are the type of player who always seems motivated and does a good job during farm runs but makes himself scarce when progress raids are scheduled. Not a moron, but behaviour like that gives the impression of being a slacker. Our guild leaders /gkicked two of those recently despite the fact that we don't have much of a buffer in our raid rooster.

If you really want to stay true to your philosophy, you should wait with Ulduar until you are able to organize PuGs, just like you did with Naxx. It will save you and any guild you may end up in some drama when the next raid instance is released.

Anonymous said...

Newsflash - Ulduar is hard. I know, I spent 30+ hours in there on the first week, and we managed nine bosses. It cost me 1200g+ in repairs, more in flasks and food. I was working with the best possible people in my guild, and some bosses took upwards of three hours of wipes to get them down.

I love it. There were few (if any) strategys. We did the encounter, discussed what we saw, and tried again.

You, Gevlon, will be sponging on the hard work of people like me in months to come, to claim your "free epics", that the actual raiding population of WoW is currently working on for themselves. We will be wiping because of people like you who are just learning the fights, rather than working on the thrill of learning them first hand. I agree that without a decent guild its pretty much futile, but I don't see that's going to change anytime soon... Ulduar won't be puggable for months. The DPS checks are high, and the fights are alot more complex than anything in naxx. (Try combinging the abilities of 3-4 Naxx bosses, and then make everyone do 5k dps while dancing out of 2 different kinds of fire.)

Carra said...

I'm in that camp right now. We have some excellent raiders. And some who are dpsing below tanks or below offspec dps. Or are still in blue gear. Or die all the time.

It's just frustrating as it's quite clear we won't get far with that setup. So find another guild? Wait it out? Stop playing? I don't know yet.

Let me quote Wowinsider as it felt like how I feel:
*If there's a guild out there who has a few lesser raiders carried along by a few high-level veterans, Ulduar's likely to cause some friction.*

In naxx, having a few slackers was fine, they were just dragged by the better players. Now however, it just means wipe after wipe.

Gevlon said...

@Alfay, Anonymous: there are two kind of wipes:

* one is part of the learning process, necessary to become better. Every try is better as people learn. Me, as a raider have the chance to make a better outcome by improving my own performance.

* the second is the product of M&S. Every try is a hopeless wipe. This goes on, until the M&S is kicked.

The latter cannot happen in one raid night, as you cannot recruit 5 new players during rez time.

Me, as a raider cannot do anything except demanding kicking the M&S or simply quitting.

I simply decided to wait out the latter process.

Alfay said...

Gevlon, the M&S problem is not so clear cut as you make it seem.

Geeting 25 players with exactly the same skill/equip/dedication/whatever level together is impossible. As a consequence, there will always be some wipes due to errors that the best players in a raid will judge as 'stupid' errors.

However, as you pointed out, it is not possible to simply replace everone who makes stupid mistakes during a raid. This leaves two options:
1) Suck it up and try again and again until you find a tactic that works given your current raid setup.

2) Do what you want to do - wait until the tactics are well known, average gear level has risen etc. so you can do easy farm raids

The problem with option 2) is that it depends on other people choosing option 1). If everyone would wait for others to clear the way, no one would get anywhere.

IMO, this situation clearly shows the limitations of your every-player-for-himself philosophy.

Gevlon said...

@Alfay: There is a third option. The good players of guild A and the good players of guild B form one guild without the ones who make the stupid errors.

What I wait for is A and B to break and form the new guild.

*vlad* said...

Most people should be able to clear Flame Leviathan.

Now that the trash mobs are back, most people are going to fail on XT 200 for some considerable time.

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous:"Ulduar won't be puggable for months."

I wonder if it will ever be. Didn't pugs stick with just Kara during TBC?
I think pugs will stay stuck at Naxx during Wotlk.

HP said...

I want to be in a guild progressing. I don't mind wiping but not when it is due to M&S. I suppose you are smarter for waiting it out but at the same time I hate that feeling that everyone else is seeing new content and that by the time I see it, it's old news to everyone. The group experience together is important. That's why I have more fun in 10 mans, we are all doing it together and we trust each other to be non M&S

Just my 2 cents

Alfay said...

Ok, if all the guilds on your server need a complete breakup to tackle Ulduar, i see your point. However, while you will avoid some guild drama, you won't escape all of it.

Some of the problems guilds formed in the manner you describe face:

a) Some of the players who were above average in their old guilds will be the new M&S in the newly formed guild C. The difference in skill may be smaller, but expectations will higher.

b) Bringing two groups of players together like this gives you lots of potential guild drama. Will the players get along with each other? Who will be the new raid leader? MT? Lootmaster? What dkp will we use? etc. etc.

c) Raiding is a group activity. 25 skilled players lumped together still need to find out who gets to to do what during raids. Forming a completly new raid takes time. Doing this just after a new Instance is released when everyone wants to kill new bosses is far from optimal.

My server (EU-Antonidas) has a very large raiding population and i have seen quite a few ambitous wannabe top guilds form in the manner you described - and fail miserably.

Dan said...

Gav, I believe you hit the jackpot with this post. You have explained almost PERFECTLY why I have not even attempted to LOCATE the instance portal to Ulduar. Perhaps you might have a few tips in a future post/comment regarding how to explain this move to a guild recruiter in such a way that they won't dismiss it?

Anonymous said...

Nice blog and I truly appreciate reading it!

Now, for the Ulduar and guild drama.

Ulduar25 won't be pugged until Icecrown is out and almost being farmed and similar loot to Ulduar 25 is available via badges or similar. The normal modes isn't too bad with a group.

For me the win in going into ulduar now is all the tactic development, trying new encounters and finding out how to beat them the best way for your raidgroup. I don't like raiding when it is farmmode, the new and unexplored content is always the best.

So, apart from the business look of raiding (to just improve your character gearwise) you might raid because you like progression raids?

I am pretty lucky in the guild I am at the moment since we are able to be casual in the time spent but hardcore in the way we use the time (3 raids per week). This has worked great and we have a very little share of M&S so we got to 9 bosses down in the first reset.

Too bad not everyone is good though.

For you Gevlon, why not just aim for the guilds that already went through the "getting rid of slackers" phase? Or is it so that you just don't like wiping?

/Astmathic Stormscale EU

Bill said...

I was a in guild that had a great solution for this situation: avoid it. The serious raiders /gquit and reformed a new guild. No MOTD, no nothing. I logged in to find an mostly empty guild of recently joined people. What's worse it made me feel like M&S, even though in my first 25Naxx raid with them I was a respectable 6th on the damage meters.

Anonymous said...

"@Alfay: There is a third option. The good players of guild A and the good players of guild B form one guild without the ones who make the stupid errors.

What I wait for is A and B to break and form the new guild."

But then why would they pick you up? It's not like you know the encounters and have the gear to fulfill the requirements.

I am an officer of my guild and we have fully cleared 10m Ulduar and are on 25m Yogg right now. I have come across people like you (leaches) and nothing annoys me more than a leach. We do not tolerate morons at all but we absolutely detest leaches bc they are selfish and essentially are slackers, characteristics that are not conducive to a successful guild.

Since Ulduar is not puggable besides a couple bosses at most. It looks like you won't be seeing Ulduar until the avg gear lvl is higher than the instance and is readily available.

You should seriously stick to gold making analysis.

Dinaer said...

At issue here is your definition of "fail". That is a subjective term that cannot be calculated neatly to get a binary answer. If a guild clears Ulduar at a rate of one new boss every week, is that "success" or "fail"? If a guild clears Ulduar at a rate of one new boss every three weeks, is that "success" or "fail"? Both will clear the content.

Your definition seems to imply that a guild should plow through the content on their first few tries. Anything else would be a failure. Not everyone would agree with that definition.

Anonymous said...

As a raider I am so glad the new content is completely opposite of Naxx to keep people like YOU out.

You are guildless and will stay that way until you decide to change your mentality to selflessly contribute to a progression guild.

Anonymous said...


You just lost any respect you had left in my bank.


What you are saying is that you can't be bothered LEARNING new content, along with other people.

Instead YOU want to be CARRIED by a group of players that have already learned and cleared the content. You'll plunk down 20k for the right to go on a run, and you'll get some nice purples, just like you did with Nax25.

You want someone else to do the hard work of learning the content, and you'll gladly pay them cash for that role.

When it comes to raiding, you sir are a SLACKER.

You're just like the 55-year-old overweight tourist who wants to see the wild beasts in africa, and then pays to have 24 other people make it comfortable to do so.

You think that those raiders who bring you along for 20k in 3-4 months really see you as anything but a rich slacker?.. I think not.

Anonymous said...

Gevlon said:
"I don't want to waste my time with the necessary wipes that will force the guild to break. I'll wait until this reforming period is over and then I'll shop around."

Hehe. That screams "I'll wait till people are better geared and know the fights so I can just join in and be carried".

You know, much more than Naxx, Ulduar is more "know how to move out of fire" than gear.

Anonymous said...

and Gelvon, your contempt for most of the human race is getting rather tedious...

You are not a "raider" if you wait till the content is cleared, and then pick and choose what group you are going to pay to run with.

If your game is the AH, that's cool, but to sit on your high-horse, and proclaim about how most people suck in Ulduar while you sit at the AH bridge, that's just laughable..

Yes, Ulduar is tough, and a lot of players are learning how to play again. Some are M&S, but, in any group, there's always going to be some of those, just by comparison. Placing yourself above them while playing with glyphs is just silly.

Yuroto said...

I was top DPS in my guild by a large margin. I didn't mind carrying people through naxx as long as they tried, which most of them did. Then people realized that if I was trying hard they didn't have to. When people stopped caring I quit. I couldn't stand wasting 500g a night just to get the M&S gear they didn't know how to use.

Anonymous said...

I enjoyed your post, although I am in a guild that is 9/13 in Ulduar (probably 11-12/13 by reset).

Some of my guild rerolled opposite faction after the TBC raid nerfing. We had 8 people in the guild when WotLK came out. First 25man raid in January, every heroic achievement except Immortal by Ulduar.

We still have M&S. We have gkicked 6-8 people so far (we like a guild size of ~30 people), and may end up kicking 5-7 more (granted a lot of 'new recruits' in those 5-7)

There is a difficulty weighing the desire to continue progression and 'live' with 1-3 progression wipes on the people who won't move out of fire, and getting a random element from recruiting. The M&S in a guild such as ours outperforms the truely aweful PUG material.

Even if they can't always move their butts out of fire 100% of the time.

Kiryn said...

I'm not afraid to admit that I don't think wiping over and over is fun. I experienced end-game raiding in BC and I learned that the time spent wiping repeatedly from other people's mistakes when I'm doing my part perfectly every time does NOT make the eventual kill more emotionally valuable to me. It just wastes my time, and makes me frustrated and angry with the people who keep messing up.

Wiping on Solarian 10 times in one night because people don't understand the concept of "don't stand near the raid when there's a wide variety of raid warnings and people shouting your name on Vent" just makes me hate the instance, and my first thought upon getting the item I needed from her was "I'm NEVER coming back here again. UGH."

I don't understand why people get so upset about this. I don't like wiping, so I'm waiting until everyone else has learned the fights, and then I'll come in and experience the content. Call me a "slacker", say I'm being "carried", I don't care. You keep talking about "the raiders who worked for it" well I don't like the game to feel like work. I just want to have fun. This elitist "raider" attitude is starting to get old.

Anonymous said...

Paying your way into a group to see the content or attain a piece of gear is a nice option to have and probably your only option, but to be a part of a guild in achieving the first kill is priceless and cannot be bought.

I honestly feel bad for you to never experience that component of this game, which is one of the few most rewarding aspects of the game.

I'll give you a real challenge with the money you have, see if you can buy a Gladiator title with all the gold you have in a 3s comp. If you can do that then I'll give you respect, other than that you are nothing more than a gold horde.

Anonymous said...

and Gold making isn't work and essentially a waste of time, which this ENTIRE game is relative to real life?

To each his own... if you get satisfaction and entertainment value in only doing pvp, then so be it. If you receive satisfaction and entertainment value in making a shitton of gold, then so be it.

It is not an "elitist" attitude, people are making a point that Gevlon and others that think the same way about the new content are essentially "slackers" themselves.

For someone to not buy the mats and hunt down a crafter to make an item to essentially save 10g is considered to be a slacker, then buying your way into a raid spot to see content is basically the same thing. do you not agree?

Everyone's perspective of fun is relative. Going around and farming mats might be fun to some but not to others. Raiding hours on end to achieve server first and whatnot is fun for many and painful to others. All perspective...

If I join a Naxx raid and afk during trash to do other things and letting everyone else pick up my slack categorizes me as a slacker, then how does "Keeping out of Ulduar" until everyone else knows the encounters and all guilds naturally normalize not constitute slacking in a similar context?

Anonymous said...

It seems to me that all of these posts calling Gevlon a slacker are completely missing the point.

I believe that Gevlon likes challenge and does not mind wiping, as long as wiping is part of learning. After all, Gevlon has no interest in WoW gold EXCEPT for what getting it teaches him, why would he care about spending it if spending it teaches him even more?

What he DOESN'T want to do is wipe because there are M&S who make actual progression impossible. There are people stupid enough, it is true, who cannot grasp the concept of "getting out of the fire." This was still fine for everything before Ulduar, but no longer.

Therefore, it is my opinion that what Gevlon is waiting for is NOT "I want to join a guild that already has Ulduar on farm because I want free epics for nothing," it's "I want to join a guild that has kicked out the M&S so that I know the time I spend wiping and learning is time well spent."

kyrilean said...

@ Kiryn - Personally I don't think there's a problem with raiders with your attitude. If you don't enjoy the wiping and want to be carried, there's nothing wrong with that.

I think that people are arguing with Gevlon because Gevlon has made a career out of telling us that we're idiots for boosting people. See his post on What's Wrong With M&S.

@ Gevlon - Although you claim to be waiting for all the drama to subside, what you are in effect doing, intentional or not, is allowing others to do the work so that you can be "boosted" later.

The only way to avoid boosting is to be on the same level as everyone else and struggle just like everyone else. You're avoiding all of that. It's a double standard.

Anonymous said...

@ Kiryn - If yoy don't enjoy the pain of progression raiding, that's cool. I have no problems with that.

The problem is that Gelvon looking down on the M&S who are attempting to raid, while he wants to cherry-pick the place to get carried through content, and still call himself a progression raider. That's why he's catching heat.

And if Gelvon, thinks he's going to find a progression guild in 3 months that has cleared out the M&S but is still doing progression raiding, then he's sadly mistaken. He will be the slacker at that point, and will need to be carried, since he doesn't know the content. He can't have it both ways.

It's not elitist either. If you aren't a progression raider, then don't call yourself one.

Unknown said...

I concur with Kyrilean.


Therefore, it is my opinion that what Gevlon is waiting for is NOT "I want to join a guild that already has Ulduar on farm because I want free epics for nothing," it's "I want to join a guild that has kicked out the M&S so that I know the time I spend wiping and learning is time well spent."

That is YOUR opinion but the connotation I received was a double standard.

Anonymous said...

@ David

Umm.. do you play this game?

You say that :Therefore, it is my opinion that what Gevlon is waiting for is NOT "I want to join a guild that already has Ulduar on farm because I want free epics for nothing," it's "I want to join a guild that has kicked out the M&S so that I know the time I spend wiping and learning is time well spent.""

Now let's think about that...

Let's assume there is a guild that weeds out the M&S, and is progressing through the content. Now the questions..

1) If this guild has weeded out the M&S, which means they have 25 raiders dedicated to whatever schedule they set, why would the need Gelvon?

2) Do you think that this guild is going to magically weed out the M&S by the time they finish with FL, and be ready to accept Gelvon with open arms? Not likely. That M&S might be weeded out by the time they get ready for Yarg, but then... (see question 1)

Gelvon is expecting a raiding crew to do the dirty work of creating a top-end guild, and then expecting them to welcome him with open arms. His bank account better be open as well.

By the time Gelvon's dream guild is worthy of his presence, Ulduar will be on farm and he will be carried to catch up. He'll be a slacker that he so loves to hate.

Yes, he's a slacker, because he wants to raid, but doesn't want to put in the hard work of building a team.

Fricassee said...

I'm with Gevlon on this one. He didn't say wait 3 months until guilds have it on farm. he said wait weeks to see what happens.

It just goes along with everything he's said about social guilds avoiding confrontation. Ulduar has a tendancy to take a "social" guild and apply some social darwinism. If they're afraid to lose the M&S that wipes the raid, they will wipe for several weeks until they either kick the M&S or the good players vacate.

After 3 weeks, if guilds are still "raiding guilds" in Ulduar, then there's less likelyhood of 1 or 2 people wasting everyone's time.

And someone said Ulduar is more of getting out of the fire than Naxx and not as much gear, and that's a lie. Naxx didn't require gear at all. You could probably afk boss fights or simply move out of fire when told and you could get through most fights. In the early stages in Ulduar, absolutely everyone needs to pull their weight in DPS (gear, skill, and not dying in a fire).

At this point, he doesn't trust 24 other people in a guild not to waste hours of his life. He's saying he's going to wait some time so he can find a guild he trusts.

phoenixboy said...

Ahh. Once again, raids have their difficulty level adjusted and dumb people are going to get axed. First, kudos to all the guys in a good progression guild, you are going to kill Algalon-25 if you keep the pace.

I dont know how to feel about it. On one hand endless wipes for stupidity AND all the dumb excuses that people make for said wipes are going to be h3ll.

On the other, Guildwatch is going to thrive in these, aka all the drama is going to keep me entretained for months.

Unknown said...

You are totally missing the point here. An established guild that has gone through numerous patches/expansions will easily weather the storm of Ulduar.

If we are talking about random guilds with no proven track record, then Gevlon's approach is very applicable. However, his theory is to let guilds A & B naturally come together after all the hardship of the instance and then get in so he doesn't have to endure the initial pain.

A few have made a good point in that this new guild of elite players may not even want Gevlon to join their guild, especially if he isn't willing to grind through the instance to learn the new fights and such. Keep in mind that this new guild formed bc they couldn't previously succeed due to all the M&S. So, they have not seen all the fights and have to learn them.

Anyhow, when it comes down to it any established guild will be highly sought after due to Ulduar now. Before with Naxx no one needed to join an elite guild since it was puggable. So, with an elite guild comes commitment.

I am an officer of a top ally guild and we are working on 25m Yogg atm. We have a good bench of players and expect a lot from everyone. We personally would never invite someone like Gevlon to raid even if we have Ulduar on farm since he's not deserving of a raid spot. His gold is useless and attribute anything to the success of progression above what each individual already provides from a monetary standpoint.

Gev's attitude is a slacker's attitude when it comes to raiding. The time he spends making gold is productive bc he sees results and has direct control of his actions. When it comes to an organization he will never have full control even as GM so therefore he will never be satisfied in regards to efficiency of time, which is essentially the reason why he doesn't step foot in Ulduar.

Even the best guilds in the world still spend hours on end learning new fights and developing strategies. Who else will post up strats and develop deadly boss mods?

@Anonymous: I do play the game and what you quoted is what another Anonymous person said.

Your two points I agree with. In addition, top-end guilds won't need additional ppl due to getting rid of M&S, their main problem will most likely be due to RL attrition.

Anonymous said...

@ david

Well said, especially since you can speak from the position of authority, so it isn't just chatter.

My apologies for the misquote.

Anonymous said...


sometimes it takes some wipes and frustration to separate the true M&S from the:

1) less skilled but willing to try
2) skilled but lazy
3) lacking experience and skill but capable of learning

the only way to sort those out is to bring them into harder fights.

Kharthus said...

"Newsflash - Ulduar is hard. I know, I spent 30+ hours in there on the first week, and we managed nine bosses. It cost me 1200g+ in repairs, more in flasks and food. I was working with the best possible people in my guild, and some bosses took upwards of three hours of wipes to get them down."

Ulduar is not hard. It's just harder than Naxx. Ulduar is easy compared to raids in BC. 10 guilds on my server have killed 7+ bosses in the two weeks since Ulduar came out. And this was also during horrible server stability. In BC you could get stuck on a boss for days or weeks, not hours.

Anonymous said...

Uldar hard compared to Naxx so a lot of the casuals will need to be kicked or become committed raiders for guilds to succeed. I don't have an issue with buying raid spots for gear if it means that you can progress your own guild further. Gevlon has a monopoly on his server, so gold is easy to come by. I would like to see him try it on an established server, where there are multiple competitors to any product, to see whether his ideas work or not.