Greedy Goblin

Wednesday, March 11, 2009

The rise of the Goblin

I've recently found a way to prove several points I've made, and to clarify one thing for myself (that will be tomorrow's post).

People kept telling me that I should join a HC guild, which I cannot do because of my time schedule (have to wake up 6:00 AM every workday, so I cannot raid after 22:00). I also don't want to do it because I find no fun in repeating content.

I don't know why did I not think about the solution earlier. Maybe because it's completely unorthodox in WoW, even among businessmen. But I finally found it: I joined a HC raid guild for just one raid by paying them for the spot. I've approached the GM telling I want to raid but have no time, so I pay. I told I don't need any loot, but I pay for loot if no one needs it. 2 HC guilds turned me down. The third accepted the offer. We agreed in 6K for Maly25, 4K for Naxx25, 1K for every piece of loot.

First point proven: the goblin way is the fastest and most cost effective way of reaching content, even if we calculate with pitiful 2K/hour (anyone can reach that if he cares to visit the AH). So one can get into the hardest content raid with 3 hours of work, done in his own schedule. Forming a PuG (including replacing "DC") takes more time (6+5 hours Naxx10, ouch). Joining a HC guild means mandatory raiding according to their schedule. A quick clear of the farm content (VoA25 + Naxx25), takes more than 3 hours every week.

Second point proven: skill is much more important than gear, after the "good entry level" gear, the further gear gains are marginal:
At the end of P2: 0.4%. This is the difference between a top-geared and an ilvl200 druid. By the way we wiped 2 times for various reasons (none was blamed on me). In the first try the difference was 2.4%, in the second it was 1.1%. It was obviously not caused by gear upgrades (as there were none), but skill increase
  • learning the fight
  • adapting to the more experienced druids spell rotation (WG every CD, rejuv when no one need heal)
  • using my own brain (I asked to be placed in the tank group and used Tranquility when Malygos took a deep breath in P2)
And my performance did not go unnoticed:

I'm so tired of people who blame gear (money, social status, previous education, economical situation, political environment, whatever) for being unsuccessful. If you have something between your ears and are ready to work too, you can reach anything. If you don't, you have only one to blame.

Third point to prove was: the easiest way to get things is the market. Since this guild farmed Naxx25 since forever, they put 90% of the gear to offspec or DE, so it worth not much to them and they cannot sell on the AH as the items are BoP. So here comes the goblin, paying 4K entrance fee + 1K for every pieces for a farmraid: Naxx25. My new gains:
An ilvl 213 BoE goes for 5K. So if I'd buy equivalents on the AH, it would cost me 35K, and I payed only 11K. That's what I call discount. On the other hand their gbank gained 11K instead of 7 new abyss crystals. Mutually rewarding business. I like it.

You may see a contradiction between the second and the third point. In the second I've claimed that top gear is not needed, in the third I shown how to get top gear easily. Well, I've never claimed that it's smart to pay 11K and spend an evening for one more Naxx raid for these pieces. I've just proven that it can be done, and anyone who wants gear for whatever reason may follow this way.

This is a great way for HC guilds to fill their bank. Instead of disenchanting items or collecting them into second offspec, they can be sold to paying customers.

Goblin raiding is also great for new, skilled player who want to join HC a guild. He can apply with some epics and farm content raid achievements instead of blues and 5-mans only.

Summary: a goblin can see content and collect gear for minimal effort, simply through business.

PS: I've concluded Maghteridon-EU Gevlon's experiment with the result that 1.5-2K/week can be made with less than 1hour/week work in a practically deserted side. Now let's get back to the big business:


Posh said...

Very interesting approach. I admire and love your small experiments. Not a way I would approach the game. But cant do anything else than /bow for this one.

Had a thought or you can call it a challenge. A thing I have a hard time thinking is doable.

You think your money and your somewhere "undergeared" char can accomplish the top end of the content as of now. Sath3D 10 man ??

Anonymous said...

You say thay you cannot join a hardcore guild because of your schedule. I wanna know what your defenition of hardcore in this case is?
My guild raids 3 days a week (unless all 25 mans are cleared), wednesday, thursday and monday. We raid from 19:30-23:00 and we have cleared all content including Sarth+3D. If a member needs to leave early he just says so, if someone is online we fill the spot, otherwise we end raid. We also have an additional rank called Social used for friends and ppl who cant raid regulary but we know are skilled (they cant demand spot and have lowest priority on loot).
In a guild like ours you could raid whenever you can and still get items noone else wants with 0 gear requirment on your part and 0 gold spent.

If your defenition of HC is to have cleared all content then it seems like this type of guild is the one you should be looking for. This kind of guild exist on all servers you just need to find em.
(Ive played in end game guilds like Nihilum and 2nd at the time on Sylvanas (home of Method) and ive played Alliance and Horde on 4 different servers so I should know.)

Larísa said...

Grats! Both to the loot, the downing and your increasing fortune.

It seems like you found a way to get into a decent guild raid instead of those terrible pugs you've been struggling with. And you seem a lot happier with it too. It's a pity you can't find a guild to raid regularly with that suits your schedule.

Anyway I'm really glad to see that you still can enjoy the game in your own, goblin way. You have appeared to be so depressed and disappointed lately. This was a change.

Anonymous said...

Nice, though I may not need to do this due to our guild doing naxx all the time I still like this idea alot.

A question though:
I myself have adopted an attitude to money making similar to yourself, this in turn has made me a great deal more cash, at the cost of not being too popular with some of my guildies for raising the prices of stuff they buy to making a comment on vent about "he's out of the guild, i'll charge him to the eyeballs +50g for my time like every other mug" to one of our recently left members.
What I would like to test is going about it the friendly approach, you know like for example a friendly local shopkeeper who has a regular following, have you ever tried this? I'm just curious how it effects profit, the flipping will be the same though adverting myself using a certain charm might drag in business as opposed to my usual 'that was the deal, you pay now and i'll honor that bargin, don't, then don't waste my f**king time' when i'm doing a 50g instance boost for example.

Anonymous said...

Your approach only works because others didnt follow it.
If every player tried to do Malygos be paying for the spot, there wouldnt be any guilds to buy the service from.
I see this happen in society to, with hippie types who doesnt want to contribute to the society and only do halftime jobs to have more "quality time".
If every doctor, policeman etc. did the same, the society would collapse.

Kevan Smith said...

Buying spots on raids is actually common on my server, Staghelm. As such, you paid too much. :) However, I'm sure once the guilds you are buying into see that you are skilled, you can get away with a lower price.

Gevlon said...

@Stoico: I've been thinking about that

@Anonymous: let's not use the word HC than. Let's just say guild that raid several nights and deep into the night. I cannot join such guild.

@Larísa: Yes, I wanted some success in the "goblin raiding" plan for long.

@bodphrah: sorry, I'm not the appropriate person for such test. If you find it interesting, go for it, but don't expect me to follow. I'd rather be poor than friendly.

@Anonymous: completely wrong. If that "hippi" generates enough GDP in 4 hours to contribute for HIMSELF, than he's not a welfare leech, he's OK. In WoW: more buyers would give more time to raiders to actually raid and not farm. This would let more people to be raiders.

@Kevan: this is completely new on my server so it took some extra G to create this custom.

Carra said...

Quite a few guilds used to this on farm content. Take some guys with you who pay x gold for each item. In 40 men content, having 39 or 40 raiders didn't really matter much anyay.

For a guild, it's a good income. All that gold can be used for your guildies. 10.000 gold can cover quite some repair costs. Or give out flasks for all members. Or maybe even do 50/50: 50% goes to guild bank, 50% to divide between your raid members. This will also make sure members actually show up as finding 24 people to just fill the guild wault might not be as inviting. (Although then you'd be raiding for 200g/3h, hardly worth it).

Got to admit that 11k gold for that gear is a real bargain, I wouldn't have to think a millisecond to take that offer. I've paid 7k gold for one item in the past...

Anonymous said...

Did you pay all the money after the raid was done or did you pay a sum of money in advance and the rest after?

Gevlon said...

@Carra: the main income of the guild members is the gear itself (as I only take what they don't need), the gold is just a bonus.

@thcgirl77: I've payed the entry fee in advance and the gear money upon receiving an item.

Kring said...

On my server, back in Molten Core days, the top end guilds offered that service.

That was before the token drop system so selling items was a bit difficult. But they sold the quest item for the priest/hunter quest from domo. You had to carry one priest and one hunter and it was guarantied that you could sell it to one of them. They even announced that service on the blizzard realm forum.

What I found interesting ist that one of the guilds did not accept gold because they said they have no use for gold because nothing which is of value to them can be bought. Instead, you had to pay them in flasks (they accepted herbs and would create the flask themself) which they used for Naxx(60). How you got the herb they didn't care.

Also, it was quite common to buy the Zul bear before it was removed. If I remember correctly, the price was 10'000g.

Anonymous said...

Addiction on Spirestone is offering to run someone through Sarth+3 10-man for 20K I believe. You get the dropped mount + the title/achievement and are on your way to getting the meta achievement for roughly ~10hrs of Goblin time vs. the hours of gearing up/learning the encounter that the guild took. I'd say the Goblin way is pretty nice for those with the AH skill, it's just that you'll never see server firsts.

Anonymous said...

Buying spots is not new. People did it quite a lot in Zul Aman to get the Bear mount, and also it used to happen fairly frequently in BC for people to get their Tier sets.

Comparing Healing HPS or Raw Heal is quite pointless really, even more so than DPS. There are many ways to completely tip the scales in your favour, but that does not mean you are doing a decent job. Not that I'm saying you can't do a decent job, but Recount doesn't prove a thing.

Anyway, grats on your loot.

Anonymous said...


Your logic is flawed. It's like saying, "people who do not have time to cook and want others to cook for them, and pay for this service, are a drag to society, and this would never work out if everyone behaved this way."

No, we would just have more restaurants. He is paying for this service. The more people want to buy into raids, the more guilds and raids might form to sell this service to people. If there are not enough guilds to provide this service, then price goes up. See how it works? Nowhere does freeloading come in.

And you know, he does do other things besides paying for raiding, so there is contribution, just not through contributing to his own high end raid guild.

Jasi said...

I purchased the ZA bear for 9,000g. Well worth it imo considering its play money, i have enough, and I have a rare game item.

Darraxus said...

I have actually thought of doing this before, but I obviously have much less money to spend than you do. If I had the money, I would certainly do this.

Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but in your inscription business, what glyphs seem to sell the best, or is it just situational?

Anonymous said...

Well Gevlon, I'll be damned. You found a way to get what you want from your server and did it in such a way that both sides felt like they won. I'm impressed :)

Now that you've proven yourself to these guys, chances are they won't charge you next time you want to raid too! They'll take you because you're good.

Carl said...

ilvl200 is more than sufficient for Malygos25, especially as a healer.

You were by no means undergeared.

Yaggle said...

Well now at least we don't have to wonder what you could possibly do with all that money!

Anonymous said...

Congrats on the raid/loot and the Magtheridon experiment.

Carl said...

@Time zones ftw

Pretty sure Gevlon is somewhere east of Germany.

Anonymous said...

He is actually southeast of Germany. You may want to look up what his druid's name means, if it means anything... *hint,hint* Won't say more, as maybe he doesn't want others to know. It's enough if you know, that he is a sort of wow-celebrity in his country, though most people do not like his goblin-attitude.

Kring said...

> Won't say more, as maybe he
> doesn't want others to know

He mentioned it himself. :-)

Stabs said...

Heh, paying 11k to heal a raid. I might grumble about repair costs sometimes but at least I never had that kind of admission fee.

I think quite honestly that you've been seeing raid guilds in terms that are too black and white. There are guilds full of slackers, there are hardcore guilds that require 90% attendance. But those aren't the only types.

Quite possibly if you talk to a reasonably progressed guild you will get a spot on terms to suit you, not them. Especially with this guild where they have seen that you are competent.

Long-term you may have more enjoyment raiding as an occasional yet valued member than buying your way into farm raids. Because the progress stuff is quite challenging and interesting.

Btw, is this raid leader now the record holder for most profitable transaction in the shortest time on this blog? 11k in the time it takes to type "ok, you're in" has to be good going even by goblin standards!

Sydera said...

This is a great idea. As a guild officer I've encouraged guilds to both sell spots and, in the case of BT, our raid ID (so a more advanced guild could clear out the bosses we weren't working on yet). This is great for the guild.

Here's the going price on Ner'zhul.

For Sarth 3D 25-person title: 4k. Dragon not included, but you can have whatever loot you want.

What would I charge you for Naxx 25? Probably 1000g for the run (+1000 for each annoying achievement you wanted to do, like the Loatheb sporeless kill or the 4 horsemen simultaneous kill). For loot, I'd give you lower priority than raider main spec but otherwise let you have each piece for one abyss crystal.

Anonymous said...

I've found your blog to be very insightful and useful. But I've been wondering where do you draw the line in your way of thinking? Stealing can be efficient, murder and violence can solve quite a few problems. Shooting all illegal aliens would probably solve some border issues in the United States. Forced sterilization of the poor is an efficient way of stopping those who can't afford kids from having kids. I don't think you would advocate any of this. I'm just curious where do you draw the line? And why?

Anonymous said...

Paying for a raid spot and buying no-trade/bind-on-equip/etc. loot drops? Welcome to the world of MMOs, over two years ago. ;)

Anonymous said...

... doh, bind-on-pickup even :P

Sydera said...


If you take any idea to its extreme, it becomes...extreme, and dare I say, evil.

I'm not sure what Gevlon thinks. I rarely agree with him, but I don't think he's about to come out with any "modest proposals" for society.

For a good example of satire on this very subject, see Jonathan Swift's essay, A Modest Proposal.

Sure, Gevlon's ideas taken to extremes are pretty gross violations of human rights. But I personally only think he's talking about undercutting people at the auction house and sticking it to raiders from time to time, which are pretty darn harmless pursuits.

Anonymous said...

Goblin, this is very minor, but it appears you have the OLD recount. That recount factors in overhealing into over all healing. If you download the newest ones, you'll be amazed at the difference. I have a holy pally that topped the charts in the old one, but once you factor out all the extra heals from judgements, holy light glyph, druids climb way up the charts. It truly is "effective" healing, and a far better way to judge performance. As a druid? You'll love it.

Anonymous said...

Well, i have to admit, its truly an impressive idea, although its already been done in other servers.

And, how far do you think that idea could take you. Sath3d? Ulduar?. Because if can do that would be really impressive.

Anonymous said...

I'm a recent fan of your site, but a long-time raider in WoW. My guild has sold runs forever, openly advertising this on forums. We post a list of the gear we're still looking for and the buyer can have anything else. In Black Temple, the buyer could have almost the entire instance for 15k. Amani War Bears were going for 10k. We currently sell Undying, Sarth10+3 (title and mount), and we'll even get you Glory of the Raider (though it's expensive!).

We cleared 25man 3-drakes 110th in the world, 39th in the US, so we've been pretty bored for a pretty long time. Bulking up the gbank for free repairs on progression nights is a great idea for us.

Btw, Gevlon, healing meters are pretty meaningless in most contexts, so posting them and then talking about gear/skill is off the mark, in my opinion.

I'm at 167k gold atm, going for cap, then I don't know what... Cheers!

Anonymous said...

Gevlon, I'm impressed (as always) by what you've done and I love taking your ideas back to my guild.

I've been trying to convince them that we could sell raid spots or raid IDs and I'm glad to have this post as fodder for my arguements.

handtuch said...

This is exactly what I wanted to do, but I'm stuck at 19k gold, so I couldnt afford this very long. Is there a chance you'll post new ideas concerning making gold?

Anonymous said...

Your point about buying raid time is well taken. It looks like an interesting idea for limited-time raiders.

You don't seem to have a valid comparison for gear vs. skill. I understand you're trying to show that you kept up with another druid in better gear, but 10% overall healing is a poor showing for both of you.

Anonymous said...

"a goblin can see content and collect gear for minimal effort"...

I've been thinking about this post, and I realised what the issue is with it. You only "saw" the content. You didn't "conquer" the content.

I wonder if it isn't a general problem with goblinism that, because of the definition of "self-" in self-interest, certain goals are simply outside of their capability.

For instance, there are a lot of things that can only be done not just with a group, but by a group.

For instance take killing Patchwerk. The raid kills Patchwerk. I "see" the fight and "get" gear.

However, I never kill Patchwerk. No person can. Only raids can.

So, if killing Patchwerk is an important goal for me, the only way to do it is to see myself as a part of a group. The closer I identify myself with being a part of the group, the more the collective accomplishment feels like my accomplishment.

But, if I don't see myself as a part of the group, all I did was see the content and get the gear. I never killed Patchwerk.

When we first downed OS+3, I felt a sense of accomplishment, because we killed him.

It wasn't that I saw the fight (I had the money to buy the title from a guild that was selling it), nor was it that I got the loot (I didn't). It was that OS+3 was a goal that I'd set for myself, but since it was a collective goal, I only had a sense that I accomplished it because I saw myself as a part of my guild.

Just thinking out loud a little bit here, but, if one of my goals is only a collectively accomplishable goal, then I can only accomplish it by breaking down my atomic sense of self.

Darn it. I hate when inconsistencies pop up in my goblinism.

rob said...

I like it the rich man who says he can get whatever he wants via gold misses the ENTIRE point of an mmo.

Living your life in the AH and paying for epics is not my idea of fun.

Have you ever thought about the effect of your actions?

You make things more expensive to the people who actually want to use them...


Anonymous said...

Rob, what you said just isn't true. Business people lower the price of goods by competing against each other. There can be some exceptions (cartels and types of lending that are inflationary), but by and large the consumer benefits when people compete against each other.