Greedy Goblin

Tuesday, February 10, 2009

Patchwerk's blessing

I did not care about 25 man raiding. It's the same content as in 10 man, the bosses do exactly the same, so why bother?

However my "second challenge" plan involves 25 man raiding, so I accepted a "LFM healer for Naxx25". We made it through the Plague and Arachnid quarter without any serious problems. However Patchwerk wiped the raid 3 times until the raid leader finally accepted that a 15K armor DK tank is not the best offtank and put him to MT. After 4 more wipes on Grobbulus (people putting slime randomly of course) I said them goodbye.

Who was to blame for me being unable to complete Naxx? Obviously just myself. If you want to succeed, you can never blame others. They can have conflicting interests with you, or just being stupid. In this case the M&S who joined up the raid had the interest of being boosted, and the leaders were careless, hoping that "we'll be lucky". Well... not.

What did I do against this faliure? Nothing, so I deserve my fate.

Could I do anything against such faliure? Obviously I could. My fate is in my hands and in no one else's. I already found out the solution for such problems and will use next week. I named it Patchwerk's blessing.
  1. After entering Naxx, we go for Patchwerk instantly. No easy badges from Faerlina and Loatheb!
  2. If we don't wipe, we bring Patchwerk down to 10% and on purposely wipe, so we are not saved.
  3. We analyze the meters. Kick all DPS below 2.5K (I know that it should be 3.5, but I became soft).
  4. If an offtank died before 10% we check what happened. If a healer seriously underperformed, kick (healers are hard to find so it's always a hard decision to kick a healer), if it was the tank who couldn't use his mitigation abilities tell him to do.
  5. If any of the kicked don't want to leave, tell them that we are not saved so we can just move out and move in a different instance. If he is still inside, do it.
  6. If several people were replaced or OT died, goto 2
  7. If the OTs are fine, all DPS do their job, kill Patchwerk and everyone else in 3 hours.
Have a successful Naxx!


Anonymous said...

Aren't you saved in 25 mans the moment you step inside? even if you do not down a boss.

the requirement for a dead boss to be saved is only in 10 mans...

unless I am wrong.

Anonymous said...

Or you could just check that everyone (except you ofc) already has the achievement for killing Patchwerk, proving that they can either pull their own weight or are good at picking good groups :)

Gevlon said...

@spinksville: achievements does not show DPS. Any moron can reach anything if he had a good group. Most people don't kick M&S, so they get achievements.

Anonymous said...

I've been wondering for some time now: what does M&S stands for? Maybe I'm an M&S for not knowing what it means but I'll take my chances

Gevlon said...

Morons and Slackers

Anonymous said...

...or you could just join a raiding guild.

Chances are that some of those people who got the slime wrong on grobulus are friends with other people in the raid group. It is actually fun to raid with your friends, even if their performance is a little below others.

Patchwerk isn't a great test anyway, since it's the easiest boss in the place. Just because someone can do 4k dps on patch doesnt mean they can "do the Heigan cha cha cha", as Larissa put it.

Grobulus is a difficult fight to learn anyway, and if it's someone's first time in naxx then you probably will wipe while they learn it. As soon as everyone learns it, it goes down easy.

It seems to me that you'd like to be in a serious raiding guild, but for some reason you can't or won't join one. I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on this.

Anonymous said...

I like that idea, its a great boost.

It greatly improves the situation for raid leaders.
But it brings us to the most important point:
You have to take lead or at least Co-lead. Because you have to enforce those rude decisions.
This is my greatest problem right now: I am just too lazy to take lead. Well yes, I dont blame anyone else for me not clearing naxx. Well obviously I do, since I hate them for being such idiots but I am not doing anything against it, so its my fault.

What my point is: Your idea greatly extends the possibility of sorting players out, but it requires the work of analyzing combat logs (WWS, Recount oder simple reading) and needs you to find new guys.

So this idea is great and I will test it when I put up a random raid in future, it will sort people that are M&S (well finally now what this is Oo)

For the issue of the raid ID in 25's: I believe when you enter the instance you get the ID, but not killing a boss and leaving will remove it (just regroup). But maybe I am wrong, I didn't mess around with this ID stuff for long time.

Sun CRm said...

quote: "until the raid leader finally accepted that a 15K armor DK tank is not the best offtank and put him to MT"

What does that suppose to mean? The lack of knowledge about dk? Or is it a typing mistake?
With my dps gear (being unholy DPS) in "Frost Presance" and with buffs i have more then 26k armor..
I suppose its a typing mistake - unless your tank was tanking in blood or unholy presance - which is anyway impossible :)

Anonymous said...

The more I read your blog the more I see you don't actually live in the real world.

No PUG is ever going to get Patchwerk to 10% and then purposely wipe just to look at meters. If a PUG gets Patchwerk to 10%, has tanks and healers up and a little DPS, everyone will want to get him down. If you stop healing just to force the wipe you should be kicked.

I suggest you form your own guild if you want to enforce these they of rules.

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous1 ("It seems to me that you'd like to be in a serious raiding guild, but for some reason you can't or won't join one. I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on this.") And you will hear it some time soon.

@Rytis Petrauskas: He had 15K "armory" armor, before buffs. I assume he was not in frost presence to prevent stealing aggro. Anyway he got 29K hurtful strikes, while the bear next to him got 21K hits. 29K is a bit high if one has 35K HP.

@Anyonymous2: everyone is interested in not having M&S in the PuG. Of course I have to be RL or co-RL to enforce it, but if it's previously announced, it cannot be a problem.

Anonymous said...

I have been to heroic naxx once, it was good fun but the guild was Swedish as i had to get one of there guys to translate in whispers to me.

I didnt really find it that much different to 10 man and the fact there guild was well geared with decent players did help well it always help doesnt it.

Anonymous said...

"It seems to me that you'd like to be in a serious raiding guild, but for some reason you can't or won't join one. I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on this."
I can sum up the future Gevlon post for you : being in a raiding guild is a return to the ape-subroutines that forces you into a herd. Most of the guild members are dregs that cannot pull their weight, Gevlon refuses to lift them.
Much better to spend 2 hours to form a viable 25 pug, review each pug participant's performances, kick the ones not up to par and repeat.

Carra said...

1) You pugged half of naxx. I call that a succes. If you want to clear Naxx, join a raiding guild. It'll save you all those headaches.

2) "DK with 15k armor" "I assume he was not in frost presence to prevent stealing aggro. Anyway he got 29K hurtful strikes, while the bear next to him got 21K hits. 29K is a bit high if one has 35K HP."

You show a lack of knowledge here. DK get an armor bonus in frost presence. Frost presence also adds a threat modifier. There is no way you can cause more threat in blood presence.
And the fact that the bear only got hit for 21K? Of course, bears have more armor and thus more mitigation which makes them better to soak up hateful strikes. However, 35K HP is more then enough to tank Patchwork (he didn't get one shotted) and the fact that he died seems due to a lack of healing. Thus healer should have been kicked instead of the tank but I suppose that healers were "rare"?...

Sun CRm said...

Gevlon @Rytis: He had 15K "armory" armor, before buffs.

Ahh. Then yes. Armory does not post buffed armory by frost "presance".
15k -> +80 % in frost = ~27k this is the value of that tank. And he had to be in frost, no kidding, cause he gets a bit of HP boost as well. Otherwise - he is a one quick shot target. And still he has to upkeep the aggro just before the MT ( which in blood/unholy presance is not really possible..)

BTW: M&S - stands for Mud and Snow tires :)

Anonymous said...

Agreed with Anonymous, your idea is ludicrous.

Have you ever tried organising a 25-man raid? Even in a guild raid, if it's anything less than a serious raiding guild, the simile "like herding cats" applies, and with a PUG even more so.

Dealing with PUGS and just people in general, you have to expect to be dealing with the lowest common denominator. Finding 24 others that think like you would be a massive task.

You would never get a PUG to wipe on a boss at 10% deliberately, much less multiple times for a second test. And if you want to waste your evening sitting around looking for new people to fill the spots of the people that got kicked out that's up to you.

That's notwithstanding the fact (as already pointed out) that a dps test on a simple boss such as Patchwork is in no way indicative of being able to perform on the many other more complicated bosses that require thought, movement and skill.

If you manage to pull this plan off, I'll of course eat my words, but that's not going to happen.

Juju said...

It's not just about the numbers, Gevlon. Proper raiding requires good teamwork.

Without running with the same people repeatedly over time, you can't build that tight level of teamwork, and therefore you'll do poorly.

Sydera said...

Yes, although I agree in principle with your post, and I think it's a great idea to start with Patchwerk in a PUG, you're never going to have enough control over puggers to get them to wipe when they could win.

I see a few options here.

1. Join the most hardcore guild you can get into, and make sure they're Type A--yelling on vent, gkicks for standing in the fissures, that sort of thing. I think you might thrive on the pressure, and they won't kick you for being mean to bad players because that's their outlook too. The hardcore guilds have already killed everything including Sarth 3D, so it'll be them boosting you. You don't have to whine about how good you are, because you'll do some catching up to players with experience on those encounters. And hey, I know you've got enough gold to afford the raid consumables.

2.Start your own guild, and run it however you want to. Would I want to be in it? No. But you might get them to wipe at 10% on Patchwerk so you can check the meters. Other than your own organization, I don't think that a group will do this for you.

Sydera said...

As a side note: multiple wipes cut into your profit for a night of Naxx. If you go through with no deaths, you make a nice little pile of gold. Naxx 10 is more profitable somehow, but I usually make money either way.

Anonymous said...

@Juju : to be fair Naxx-level of raiding doesn't really require any teamwork or skill...

Neil said...

@B&K: In Vault of Archavon at at least, you are not saved until a boss goes down.


"I did not care about 25 man raiding. It's the same content as in 10 man, the bosses do exactly the same, so why bother?"

Better gear. iLvl 213 and 226 epics drop in Naxx 25, versus iLvL 200 and 213 epics from Naxx 10. Sometimes a slight gear difference can make the difference between a wipe and a downing. Wipes definitely take more time. And as we all know, "time is money, friend!" I also believe that higher-level BoE epics drop from Naxx-25, meaning more profit should you win the roll.

Your "Patchwerk's Blessing" is a great idea on principle but does not hold up in practice.

First, you'll never get a PuG to do it. I can't even imagine getting a guild to do it barring a position of extreme authority or close friendship. "Herding cats" is about right.

Second, it is an inaccurate measure of performance. There is a big difference between being able to DPS while standing in one place and not worrying about ANYTHING and being able to DPS while running to and away from Grobbulus because you're slimed, or being able to kite Zombie Chow, or executing the Heigan "dance", or timing your Mind Controls well, or rapidly picking up adds on Kel'thuzad, and so on, and so on. Yes, you will learn SOMETHING - but I wonder if the return on investment justifies the extraordinary means you'd have to take to carry out this procedure.

I agree with Sydera in that the bar you set for performance is a very high one, and really an unreasonable one for PuGs. As she said, you're best off starting or joining an aggressively high-performing raiding guild if that's the kind of Naxx run you want.

Darraxus said...

Wouldnt it make more sense to kill patchwerk, check the meters and then just not invite the crap performers back the next week. Every week is another raid.

Gevlon said...

@Darraxxus: definitely not! If we are saved with them this week, we have to suffer their presence whole raid and may not be able to finish the raid due to their pathetic performance.

Anonymous said...

How do you know that the people you are replacing the M&S's with arn't just as bad or worse? Or that a healer left the raid because you got rid of his mate... Do you think it would be easier to try to down patchwerk first? If you can't and you don't belive the raid will be successful, you can just leave and do something else.

Anonymous said...

Hi Gevlon, I love that plan.

Would you be willing to do a quick tutorial on your website showing people how to use Recount to find out "what happened" in a raid?

I've read your earlier post on Recount, and I'm a new user of it. I've learned enough to be able to take a look after fights and see the various lists, and drill down to the pie charts. I'm sure I could figure out how to reconstruct a Patchwerk fight and puzzle out the weak areas of the raid, but it seems like that would take a long time... 30 mins or longer, I'd guess. And what raid pug is going to wait around for that?

Is there some kind of quick method you're using that you could demonstrate?

Anonymous said...

I would also be interested to know if Recount actually counts *all* damage. I know in original WOW, the damage meters did not count seed of doom damage. When burning crusade first came out damage meters did not count most of seed of corruption damage.

My main is a Lock so I don't know about other classes, but I know that in the past not all Lock damage has been counted.

Anonymous said...

I think if I remember right the "challenge" which was given, was for you to join a raiding guild which would _put up with you_, not to see if you can successfully pug raids. You are missing the point of the challenge.

Anonymous said...

Forget the original challenge; this one is far better (I am certain Gevlon would be fine in a raidgroup).

Looking forward to you actually reporting on this plan, Gevlon. Can't wait to see it succeed wonderfully/fail abysmally.

Anonymous said...

While the general clearing achievements are not an accurate guide (as people can be carried) some of the more specific ones could be used. The 25 man safety dance for example, as a good starting point. Or the 4h 25 man version for the next level up.

Amava said...

Very interesting idea in concept. I thoroughly enjoy reading about original ideas like this, but like many other commenters, I think you'd have a difficult time executing the strategy.

However, it brings up part of the value of the ape-like behavior of forming herds.

Both the Patchwerk Blessing and Raiding Guilds attempt to assess or measure other players.

There is a cost to this.

Cost of Blessing is repairs and consumables due to forced wipe, plus the time wasted recovering from the wipe.

Using the Blessing, you will pay this price each and every week. And in return for this weekly cost, you only get to measure a single dimension of a player's skill (stand still and deal/absorb/heal damage).

Raiding guild (ape herd) assesses performance too, often via application/interview outside of a raid, and then a trial raid or two. The cost is some Officer's time out of raid to review the application and conduct the interview, followed by possibly boosting a dumb through one or two raids.

Cost can be reduced if you do not distribute loot to trial member, in which case you only boost a dumb via some Emblems and maybe achievements that they can use to gain entry to some other guild.

Once the person demonstrates knowledge in the application/interview, and skill and ability to perform during trial raids, you do not need to incur the cost of measuring them weekly. Yes, you will continue to look at WWS reports after each raid so you know if the person stops performing, but you drastically reduce the cost of measurement after the first week or two.

Additionally, the ape herd measures a player's full ability to raid, not just the easy-to-measure-but-inaccurate ability to kill Patchwerk.

Anonymous said...

I don't know why folks continue to diss PUGs. I've been in a PUG recently that downed 3 wings of NAXX25. Apparently that's unheard of. But hey if you get in a PUG and can't get through the trash, bail quietly. Nobody likes a whiner.

Quit yer whining about them. If you don't like them, don't go near them AT ALL. Get in a raiding guild and hope they competent, and able to fill/take down NAXX25 (and higher) consistently.

Anonymous said...

25 man safety dance is NOT a good indication becasue that requires a person to have done the dance with 24 other people who also knew it.

I died on heigan, I think once. first time i did it I didn't quite get the placing of the waves yet. I haven't died once since. I have a ten man achievement to prove it. 25 man though? I love my guild. people are great personaly and they are good raiders. we might not be the top guildon a server, but we've cleared everything and are working on Sarth with drakes up. however - someone alwasy dies on heigan. sometimes its lag. sometimes its a freak disconect. sometimes its a new person who didn't get a hang of it yet. and this is a guild we're talking about, we're all in vent, most of us have raided in TBC together, we get things done and have fun doing it. but we don't have 25man heighan achievemnt.

expect a pug to have it? completely and utterly unreasonable. and a person who WILL have it, you will not find pugging anything other then occasional vault (because lets face it, that place is a loot and becasue people who belong to the guilds capable of heroic achievemnts do not need or want to pug)

and like other said - Patch is a bad boss to judge dps on. heck even healing and tanking is not all that difficult on Patch. just stand there and wail away on him, chain cast heals untill you're OOM (then switch with another healer)

P.S. I've noticed that you rarely if ever reply to posts that disagree with you and do it in a fashion I believe you cannot rebut. I find it interesting. do you completely ignore them becasue they disprove your ideas or just don't reply to them, as to not give them more fuel to shake the foundations of your statements?

Unknown said...

I have some experience hosting 10 & 25 man PUG groups, and if you're starting from scratch, it can take a while to get 25 people with proper mix.

What I see with this plan here is an abundance of dead time with people getting ticked off and leaving before you even start.

5:00: you slowly gather people together - they all want to get rolling.

6:30: you work your way through the trash to Patchy, and hope to get to 10%.

6:35: 'hateful' tanks die. You know you've got a problem with either the tanks or the healers. You analyze and replace.

7:15: you regroup, take him down to 10%, and force the wipe.

7:20: ... analyzing data ...

7:25: boot the low dps, and lose some good dps because you booted their friend.

7:26: LFG - need ranged dps! must be capable of 3.5k

7:35: LFG - need ranged dps! must be capable of 3.5k

7:45: "Guys, I'm sorry, I've got to go. :("

7:50: LFG - need ranged dps! must be capable of 3.5k

8:00: ... summoning ...

8:10: Attempt Patchwerk again. At this point, if you're tanks survive, I really doubt you'll want to force another wipe. But you analyze anyway, and find that you're dps improved only marginally.

8:16: Patchwerk down!

8:25: Grobulus, yay!

8:30: "WTF filled the floor with Fking green sht?!!!"

8:32: /uninvite

8:35: LFG - ranged dps! Must know Grobulus fight!

8:45: LFG - ranged dps! Must know Grobulus fight!

8:50: "Guys, my mom wants me to brush my teeth, I've got to go. :("

9:00: LFG - ranged dps! Must know Grobulus fight!

9:05: "OK. Fine. Lets call it."

Unknown said...

On the other hand, if you're running a PUG, why not use the spider wing to see how people perform?

If someone is not performing, there is no law that says you need to keep them in the group, even if they are saved to the instance. If they can't do their job, advertise for a replacement, and boot them when you've got someone lined up (assuming of course, that the under performer at risk isn't the GF of your best healer).

If they can't perform, they shouldn't be there, and I'm no preschool teacher. But in the spider wing, you don't need top-tier players. Clear what you can with the low-tier players, and replace them as you are able to do so.

Anonymous said...

I think xxxiii's scenario is fairly accurate. With that many PuG's in a group "raid rot" is a fact of life, and a real time waster.

On the other hand, Gevlon's dps test does have some merit. Our guild (which tends to take a few PuG's along on raids) will use the Gargoyles to test dps. It doesn't require more than a single trash pull before you encounter one, and it's a fairly intense race.

Anonymous said...

the moment the raidleader says "patchwerk" and theres not 3 wings clear im leaving the raid. been there, done that. nothing worse then a raid leader who wants to go military wing first with a 25-man pug. they usually call it a day somewhere between gluth and thaddius.