Greedy Goblin

Wednesday, October 28, 2015

Rest in pieces, minions of Evil!

You probably heard that the highsec branch of the Imperium, after long agonizing had finally was closed, just as I predicted in June. RvB was a despicable organization that lured clueless newbies to be slaughtered by a core of elite PvP players "The Morlocks" who in turn did the bidding of the Evil One. I remember when I started the GRR project, without data, enough money, trying to rally people into the new Darwin's Lemmings (instead of the already existing MoA). RvB jumped on us with the declared goal to end us.

Well, look who ended first! I shamelessly claim credit here. Before my posts and the open permawar against Lemmings to protect Goon POCOs, everyone ate the "we just love PvP" bullshit. After the bad PR and the permawar, Mangala Solaris lost 2/3 of his #1 position CSM voters, getting in CSM9 only by being on the CFC ballot openly.

While RvB wardecced everyone who opposed Burn Jita 2014, there were no significant losses to them, showing that the line members are rejecting the Goon minion status. From there, it was downhill in activity. The leaders couldn't reassure members that they are not just pawns in the hand of the Evil Goons, nor they had the will to liberate RvB and return it to its public goals.

Funnily RvB is not dead and can even get on its feet, now that the corrupted leadership has left (probably to rat in carriers on their mains in Deklein) and players can stay in the corps still engaged in permawars.

The lesson to learn: it's better to not conspire. Had they openly declare themselves the highsec arm of Goons, they could find people who actually want to do that and be Miniluv. Had they actually be Red versus Blue, they'd still be widely supported. While it's easier to hide your colors in the short term, on the long term it never pays.

PS: I see the "Broadcast4reps" hype everywhere on blogs. It's a movement to find and help suicidal people in EVE. I need to ask: how can anyone support a movement like that with a straight face while tolerating the EVE-existence of someone saying on stage: "Incidentally, if you want to make the guy kill himself, his name is [REDACTED]. It's [spells the name]. He has his own corp. Find him!"


Anonymous said...

"how can anyone support a movement like that with a straight face while tolerating the EVE-existence of someone saying on stage: "Incidentally, if you want to make the guy kill himself, his name is [REDACTED]. It's [spells the name]. He has his own corp. Find him!""

How can people support anything while someone else is doing something bad?

Because some people think it is petty to score points off of something that happened years ago.

Because that person is not relevant to Broadcast4reps.
Because Broadcast4reps is more important than that.

I manage to log into eve every single day, knowing that there are people who say despicable things on their eve-related blogs when they mix politics and gaming. I have no problem with these people existing in Eve....provided I never have to be within hearing distance of them IRL.

Druur Monakh said...

Your comment about 'Broadcast4Reps' is out of line, if not outright disgusting. The terms you are missing are 'compassion' and 'lessons learned' - and even the Mittani realized that he had stepped over a line with his comment and accepted the consequences.

I know you are an anti-social and look down on socials, and you are welcome to tin-foil against Goons as much as you want - but you do not get to abuse a very real effort to support very real people with very real problems just because it fits into your in-game space-pixel agenda (or worse: because it drives traffic).

Have some respect.

S Riojas said...

RIP RvB: you were once great, then you fell, and now you are lame. I once had an alt in PvB years ago, it was quite fun until I sold that character. I was quite disappointed when I saw them acting like Goon pets, that blemish is something the RvB name will never live down.

I've been noticing many (if not all )RvB POCOs in the Forge are reinforced. It may be a good time to invest in High Sec POCO property.

Ashterothi said...

I was with you until the end.

The Broadcast4reps community is born from our mutual loss, and it is rallied behind by folks of all types in this game.

No matter how you feel about them, everyone in this game is in the same boat of humanity, and Broadcast4reps transcends our stupid space politics.

Please do not drag honest to god real life helping movements by unrelated people into any discussion about the machinations of a video game. Lets keep a pretty clear line there. The Mittani shouldn't have said what he did. If anything this is an indication of a wonderful change in EVEs culture over the last several years. If that had been said today, I am pretty sure the reaction would have been very very different.

Anonymous said...

Are you implying suicide prevention isn't worth every single persons effort? The overwhelming majority of people who support it have never stood on stage and told someone to kill themselves and The Mittani especially should be supporting it BECAUSE of his past mistakes.

Never mock someone for trying to save another persons life.

Gevlon said...

@Astherothi (and others): how can you honestly support that and then be on tweetfleet and jabber and on whatever "smoke filled room" connection with someone who called for suicide bully?! It's hypocrisy! There are two and only two honest options here:
- "I don't care about people committing suicide, I'm not their mom or shrink"
- Canceling all real life connections with the horrible person who wanted to push someone into suicide. Leave the chatroom when he or any who literally serve him enters, block him and his, refuse to go to Fanfest unless CCP guarantees he won't be there, maybe boycott EVE entirely until his case is reopened and his 30 days band changed to perma.

@Druur Monakh: I don't have a pixel agenda, I have a real life agenda. I don't wage war against The Mittani and his minions because they blew up my spaceship or because I want Deklein for my own ratting. I fight them because I consider them bad people. I don't hang out with them after playing, I don't drink with them, I don't go conventions where they show up. I find it disgusting that people who hang out, drink and party with him, maybe were even present at the Alliance panel and laughed their asses off on his line are now pulling "oh how caring person I am and saving people in despair". Liars and hypocrites!

Anonymous said...

Pointing out the hypocrisy of CCP and any player/group who tolerates The Mittani and his comments at fanfest, and then try to attach themselves to the cause for suicide prevention is not out of line or disgusting. It is right on target. CCP should be raked over the coals numerous times over thier blatent use of a "cause of the day " to get some publicity. Shame on CCP. The right thing to do was to effectivly remove Mittens when he made his statement, not a slap on the wrist. Support of suicide prevention now does not absolve CCP of thier horrible handling of the Mittani affair at fanfest. CCP should be held accountable for the thier inaction then and scorned for thier 180 on the issue now for cheap publicity.

Stan vanderVille said...

What? You openly argue like that agains Broadcast for Reps by citing mittens failure and on the other hand you openly support people who were proudly choosing the name of a famous mass murder and war criminal? You should sometimes also remind the readers of your blog about MAO in the proper way!
I could tolerate that you are total anti-social.
But just always being biased is just annoing and just stupid propaganda.

Warden of the North said...

Perhaps you should start boycotting MoA then, because before CCP forced him to rename "Gen Eve", he was known as "Gen Mladic". He's also rather fond of supporting genocide in local.

I honestly, eagerly await your reasoning as to how he is somehow a better person than Mittens. Because he didn't say it all on stage while so drunk he could barely stand? Then he must've said it sober - which would make it worse.

Or maybe it was "fear talk" to "strike fear into the heart of goonies" - people have been banned for using an old meme ("gorilla warfare") to spam local in this manner, and one could argue that if that's the case - Mittani was just trying to strike fear into the heart of hisec miners.

Amarr-Zon said...

I was not yet playing EVE when The Mittani made his statement. But of course I heard of it.
And yes, I think about going to next Fanfest, just to see it once.

But in my opinion also, CCP's penalization to The Mittani back then was way too little. Perma-ban would have been a proper reaction.
One may argue, that it was just a slip by a drunken person. But I think, as a drunken he had only less self-control and said, what he had in mind without thinking about consequences. If not drunk, he would have had the same thoughts, but wouldn't tell them, because he would have been aware of the (possible) consequences.
If you don't have such thoughts, you would never - not even drunk - tell such bull-shit.

Simple as that for me. And so, yes, I see Gevlons point of people being hypocritical.

Gevlon said...

@Stan vanderVille, Warden of the North: Do you have any evidence that Gen Eve took part in the genocide performed by (the real) General Mladic? If yes, please present it and I stop dealing with such horrible person.

If not, then he was just cheering to General Mladic, which is indeed not nice, but no worse than those who laughed on the comment of The Mittani on Fanfest. The Mittani on the other hand was the one who performed the atrocity (calling people to cause someone's death), and it's only luck prevented actual death (no one answered the calling or they failed to find the target or the target wasn't as weak as assumed).

I didn't say "permaban/boycott every Goons because of The Mittani", I said "permaban him and boycott his close friends and business partners" (before you'd mention Gen Eve again, do you have evidence that he has real life business or close friendship with any of the genocide performers?)

Tldr: The Mittani = General Mladic, Gen Eve = some random Goon cheering to the Mittani

Druur Monakh said...

@Anonymous 08:01: As I said: "Lessons Learned." Yes, some people do 180s and only pay lip service, but other people in the real world do learn from their mistakes. And that's not hypocrisy, that's called "growing up". It's a process that never ends.

And as it was pointed out to me just this evening, the Goons/Mittens have not said anything about B4R (at least nothing I can find) - they seem to have no beef in it as an organization. Any connection here is one made only by Gevlon.

@Gevlon Fine. Let's assume Mittens and the Goons are as bad as you suggest, and let's consider the fact that they are still in the game. Wouldn't be the existence of the 'Broadcast4Reps' initiative be right in line with your goals? A plucky initiative to show the Goons that they don't dominate the game?

You'd dismiss them because you'd value killboard numbers over social victories?

You really need your priorities straightened out, and learn some respect.

Oh, and @Stan vanderVille was calling you out for hypocritical confirmation bias on your side. "MaO is fighting Goons, hence MaO is good."

Druur Monakh said...

@Gevlon "how can you honestly support that and then be on tweetfleet and jabber and on whatever "smoke filled room" connection with someone who called for suicide bully?! It's hypocrisy! There are two and only two honest options here:"

Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. There is always a third option, and if you can't see it, you haven't been looking hard enough.

People, unlike machines, can change. Some can be taught; some can't. It's a gamble, but one where the wins outweigh the losses.

People can improve! You talk so much about teaching slackers how not to be slackers anymore, yet at the same time you deny other people the ability to improve socially (with no help from you, I have to add)?

Anonymous said...

The Mittani is not in the video, and would be inappropriate if he appeared in it.

I agree with Gevlon, that CCP should not conduct business with The Mittani, and not just because of that outrage on that stage.

I don't think that Gevlon's comment is outright disgusting. Gevlon would never associate with The Mittani, and cant understand why other people would and do. It was not a comment against B4R, it was a comment about how people not rally against The Mittani's unfair punishment.

Stunt Flores gets a perma banned because of a JPEG. The Mittani gets a 30 day suspension. And the playerbase swallows this. There should have been an ingame riot and forum rageposting to permaban him. But CCP did not dare to piss him off, because he makes them too much business, they would lose income, people would lose their jobs if The Mittani decided to boycott CCP. It's a very unhealty relationship.

General Mladic is just a name, he murdered people. So did Napoleon, Ceasar or any other military person, I'm sure many players have their names. Maybe we should permaban everyone in this corp:
I mean, Stalin killed millions of people right?

Maybe I should make a corp with the name "If you are weak Kill Yourself". If they report me its only a 30 day ban. But if I post a jpeg, thats permaban. Seems only fair.

Gevlon said...

@Druur Monakh: yes, people can change. But people who see that they need changes can't lead. When a CEO or politician slips "nigger", he must leave office, even if he's honestly sorry. Maybe he isn't a bad man, just a weak one, but he is no longer an example to follow. He can be one who contribute from behind and maybe years later return as a reformed man. But The Mittani never left leadership positions, beside CSM which he was forced to. He is still leading the Imperium. The propaganda site is named after him. The Goons CSMs follow his orders:

Amarr-Zon said...

"People, unlike machines, can change. Some can be taught; some can't. It's a gamble, but one where the wins outweigh the losses."

And this point doesn't count for the people being perma-banned for way less misbehavior?
There should always be the same standard in decisions like that.

And it is hard to explain, that you want to help people with suicidal thoughts, while on the other hand the call for exactly the opposite (encourage someone to suicide) didn't need a hard punishment. But hey, the person was drunk. And he is really sorry. Really.

Saint Michaels Soul said...

I don't think attacking the Broadcast for Reps movement to advance your otherwise entertaining "Grr Goons" stance is a bright move. They are trying to help people and jumping on a political bandwagon, pointing fingers and accusations and campaigning against someone is a very effective method of alienating people that might have otherwise come to them for help. They can't go about attacking individuals within eve without undermining their well meaning cause.

Gevlon said...

@Saint Michaels Soul: where do I exactly attack Broadcast for Reps?

Anonymous said...

I do wonder why people think the mittani was doing anything other than making a poor drunken joke that day on stage, I have seen far worse out of chriss rock and other standup comedians. It was a joke hence why he was not perma banned, the guy whose name was read out on stage didn't even care. Now I'm one of those people who know Alex and here you are stating that I cannot support a charity to help suicidal people because I must be evil in real life?

Frankly the people who should be questioning themselves here are people who have a hatred of other rival gamers so deep they then take it outside of the game and attack them every chance they get.

Anonymous said...

Are you implying suicide prevention isn't worth every single persons effort?
No. As long as wars exist I only care about myself. Why should I put in the effort if all governments go happily about their killing business. If there ever will be peace maybe I change my mind, maybe the person on the edge of committing suicide might reconsider.
If someone wants to end their life, so be it. It wont get mentioned between the next news flash informing us about a successful bombing run killing 100+ people and Justins cat that farts the ABC backwards.

Anonymous said...

"Where do I exactly broadcast for reps"

The bit where you say: "how can anyone support a movement like that with a straight face while tolerating the EVE-existence of someone saying on stage: "

Is saying "While Mittens is in Eve, no one should support Broadcast4reps."

Anonymous said...

". CCP should be raked over the coals numerous times over thier blatent use of a "cause of the day " to get some publicity. "

Because they obviously don't care at all when pilots commit suicide, right? They are only bothered about the loss of subs....Jesus Christ...some people are so blinkered it verges on pathetic.

Gevlon said...

@Anon, no, it means: "no one should support Broadcast4reps who don't call for the immediate removal of the Mittani".

While he is here, can you guarantee that there are no horrible people like himself lurking on the channel looking for victims? With him kicked, at least they'll think twice.

ChYph3r said...

Gevlon, so all goons are all bad people, because of what one person said, how many years ago now? "EXAMPLE : It would be like saying all Germans are as bad as Hitler, because Hitler was a truly bad person. " Your ignorance and stupid ideology is showing. Your rash generalization that all Goons are bad or don't support people with IRL problems to receive some help they need even if it is in a video game is truly absurd.

Gevlon said...

@ChYph3r: is Hitler the leader of Germany? No, they rejected him, broke his statues and banned his book. Anyone saying "Heil Hitler!" goes to jail. Did the Goons did the same to The Mittani?

I DO support people with IRL problems by calling for the removal of the man who wants them DEAD.

Esteban said...

Going to have to side with Gevlon on this one - not least because he never suggested that anyone should stop supporting B4R, for any reason. He asked a rhetorical question, which is worth asking. How can you be passionate about suicide prevention and at the same time support/follow a guy who tried to get someone vulnerable bullied into suicide?

Mittens got off very, very lightly at the time, and as said above, he's lucky as hell that the victim didn't actually commit suicide. In addition to the primary tragedy of a guy losing his life, you can imagine the dark-side-of-EVE mainstream headlines: online game chieftain uses virtual power to put out a cyberbullying hit job. It's entirely possible our Mr Gianturco would have faced jail time and, in America, become a poster boy for further reaching legislation.

No, all Goons aren't responsible for what he did. Most line Goons are probably decent people IRL, an impression reinforced by hanging out in their irl-profession-centric channels way back when. It's good that individual Goons support B4R and any other social solidarity initiatives in EVE. But yeah, it's fair game to wonder how those guys can follow The Mittani.

Let's face it, those of us who play EVE are probably a sigma or two away from the mean on a number of psychological scales. There's likely a higher chance of friction with the rest of society, and certain pressures may be more likely to arise than in the general population. As enjoyable as in-game scumbaggery has always been and will always be, it's better for everyone that there be very little tolerance for people like Mittens and Erotica 1 who take it to meatspace.

Elizabeth Norn said...

Uh, didn't Lemmings die before RvB?

Anonymous said...

Maybe that's because he made a mistake. People are human. People can change. Yes he told people to encourage another person to commit suicide, but he has served his punishment.

Four years ago mental health was something that people just swept under the bed, now it's more recognized than ever. This isn't about the comment Mittens made and was punished for. One comment doesn't define a person. One person's past does not define their present or shape their future. It's childish and ignorant to let your personal dislikes cloud your judgments.

Gevlon said...

@Elizabeth: Lemmings were closed to focus more money to Marmite who farmed the various minions of Evil (including RvB of course) for another year. Then that branch closed too and now the focus is nullsec, MoA. Each action increased the monthly ISK destroyed. I wish I had money for all of them, but didn't. This is why Lemmings closed, not because RvB did anything but failing.

Kinis Deren said...

@ Estaban, regarding your comment [28th October 17:45]. Well said sir O7

Anonymous said...

@anonymus 21:44

he served his punishment? thats kind off not true.....he got a weeks ban,played on an alt,and goons burned the first jita burn in some sort of protest over his ban....and not that much changed really. Miniluv still ransoms people,ganks them after they pay,and tells them to go kill themselves afterwards. Goons will be goons,and hence nothing you do against them can be wrong as long as it leads to their destruction.

Cajun said...

No Idea what you are smoking but it's not nice to not share. "Broadcast4reps" is not a goon initiative, it's a community initiative such as your readers. Who are you to suggest that this program shouldn't go forward because of the actions of one player? I would think someone in your position would support such a noble cause and put aside your grrrgoons. Not sure if you know this, but Eve Online is a game with real people behind the computers. Everyone is entitled to seek help out, regardless of their affiliation. Maybe you should put your delusional ramblings aside and keep it strictly grrgoons and not "Broadcast4reps". Here is another little bit of information, even if Mittani went, there would always be someone else stepping up.