Greedy Goblin

Thursday, October 29, 2015

CCP, you hypocrites!

Yesterday I just inserted a lazy PS for the players who do a lip service for the Broadcast 4 reps movement (aimed to find and help suicide-considering people) while upkeeping social or professional connections with the horrible person Alexander Gianturco, known as "The Mittani" in-game who, while standing on stage said about a depressed player:

Incidentally, if you want to make the guy kill himself, his name is [REDACTED]. It's [spells the name]. He has his own corp. FIND HIM!



Then I saw CCP Customer Service tweeting the movement video about Broadcast 4 reps and actually watched it in disbelief. I thought it's a player movement, but I saw multiple CCP devs in the video, identifying themselves with their CCP tag instead of their real names, clearly speaking for CCP Games. While I don't question the honest motives of the individual devs, the company is unworthy to get involved in such movement due to the following:
  • They organized the event when the above quote was uttered.
  • They failed to answer it for days until serious media pressure gathered.
  • They considered it a minor infraction and punished it with temporary suspension, where bad memes or posting CCP communication leads to permaban.
  • They didn't revisit the case later to hand out proper punishment, despite they did it in other old cases like the Erotica 1 bonus room (which was disgusting and harassing but clearly not threatening anyone's life).
  • They kept cooperating with that person, accepting design input directly from him.
Because of these I call CCP Games to withdraw from the Broadcast 4 reps movement and let only unquestionable people stand in the front. If they are devs, they should do as individuals, with their real names with no CCP logo. Before CCP as a company can identify with such movement, they must fix their former errors by handing out proper punishment to The Mittani and reprimand those employees who are responsible for mishandling the case and officially apologizing for the mishandle.

For clarification: I do not question the integrity of the Broadcast 4 reps, I never claimed that it is a conspiracy for anything or has any other purpose than stated. I claim that it cannot serve its purpose while CCP Games tolerates The Mittani in the game. I'd remind you that depressed people are often paranoid, believing no one is liking them or that people are after them. Some really were. They will shy away from using this help if they fear (and I'm afraid not without basis) that the channel is lurked by those who wish to follow the order of The Mittani: FIND HIM!

Before you'd say "he apologized and resigned". No, he didn't resign, he was kicked from the CSM. He keeps leading the in-game coalition and their propaganda site was named after his in-game persona. He might did the necessary lip service but didn't leave the positions of leadership he is so obviously unworthy of.

I also repeat what I said yesterday: you can't say with straight face "I want to help people considering suicide" while you're not also saying "get rid of The Mittani already!". I hope that everyone can see that having him and creating a safe environment for people with problems are mutually exclusive.

One more thing: there were like 300 people present when that sorry excuse for a human called for the death of one of us, EVE players. There wasn't one who rushed to the stage, grabbed his mike and yelled "DON'T DO THIS!". Shame on every single one of you!

Update: I can't believe it. Goons had the nerve to talk about Broadcast4Reps on TheMittani.com. "We are all, however, human. Events can happen to us that can overwhelm us so much we simply can no longer cope. It could be bereavement, relationship breakdown, a loss of our home or job. It could be debt, a diagnosis, an injury, a psychopath rallying hundreds of trolls to bully you or a combination of any or even all." Here, I fixed that article.

40 comments:

Anonymous said...

"They will shy away from using this help if they fear (and I'm afraid not without basis) that the channel is lurked by those who wish to follow the order of The Mittani: FIND HIM!"

You do of course have evidence for any of the goons or others involved in B4R doing anything like this?

Your implication is clear...."Nobody go to B4R if they need help....not until Mittens is gone from Eve". You really think that the people who run B4R put up with the slightest bit of trash in the channels?

Why are you wanting to put people off of going there?

Is this your new "Win condition"...use B4R as your vehicle to remove Mittens from Eve?

Provi Miner said...

Least we forget he is also a racist anti-Semite. Two years ago in Vegas his talk was laced with derogitive terms like "Jew" used in a negative connotation. Mittens is true scum who should be banned. Erotica never suggested some one kill them selves. Erotica as far as I know doesn't call isk making "mewing" but mittens does.

Gevlon said...

@Anon: I want to prevent a disaster where one of Mittani's dumber minions lurk on the channel to find names of vulnerable people and then open a private convo. As long as The Mittani goes free, his cronies are 100% sure in their invulnerability. And they are probably right, as evidenced by the reversal of the ban of the monument vandals. Ban their leader and they'll get the message. Not before.

@Provi Miner: do you have a video of that? Were you there, heard it yourself and ready to open a ticket for racist harassment?

Anonymous said...

I find the moral outrage a bit odd from someone who on his very blog keeps claiming that if he had any executive power in a country anyone who happens to be poor can die of any disease they catch and starve because 'they had it coming themselves'
The very philosophy you so hotly advocate has driven many more people to suicide than a single drunken rant of someone ever did.
So by your logic you should not associate with yourself.

It must also be hard for you to actually buy anything. After all, whatever product you buy might be made by a company in which someone did something bad. Or from a country with a politician that said or did horrible things.

Now if this initiative were run by the Mittani, or if you have any real proof rather than your usual tinfoil that goons would go out and actively disrupt this initiative you might have a point.
But right now you are calling on people to boycott good initiative because someone unrelated to it said something bad.
Isn't that the same thing? Are you now not calling on players to ignore people who might want help and thus encourage them to suicide yourself?
If you are SO outraged by what the Mittani did, should you not be massively endorsing this service to prevent this happening again?

But no, you let your own petty agenda go ahead of the real needs of other people, like a true objectivist.

johnhoward said...

I know you don't 'do' social interaction so let me spell this out for you as politely as I can manage:
Trying to politicise broadcast4reps is really poor form.
I am one of your minions of evil. One of my real life best friends of 20 years (and coincidentally a fellow eve player) took his own life. He had a lot going on but in no way was a game of space pixels responsible. He was a very sick man and we couldn't watch over him 24/7 so I think a movement like this which starts a dialogue and most importantly provides some voices of reason to encourage people to seek help in a forum they feel comfortable in is a brilliant idea.
I was in brave voice comms when they mentioned this event last year and every person speaking (many of whom were in that video) was genuine in their desire to help. You are doing those people, and those this campaign seeks to help a grave disservice with this post.
As i said i don't expect you to understand but this is one of those occasions when, respectfully, you should shut the fuck up precisely because you don't understand.
Ps I'm not going to try and defend what mittens said because even as a colloquialism 'make him kill himself' is skating on thin ice but I will point out that there is no evidence the player was 'depressed'.

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: and you see me on a "save the poor" initiative? The title says "hypocrite", which fits well for CCP for having BOTH the Broadcast4reps and The Mittani. The post about the movement on TheMittani.com is outright outrageous.

@Johnhoward: I'm sorry for your friend. But the guy who could die because of the one you CHOOSE TO follow in game is a human too. And yes, there was evidence, he said it himself that playing EVE is the only thing that keeps him from killing himself. The Mittani read this out FROM A PRE-CREATED SLIDE before his infamous quote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbYNLmtAMAw&t=120

johnhoward said...

It's not a matter of 'following' anyone. As I said, can't defend mittens comments but the idea of broadcast4reps is too important to try and score points with or to put conditions on before supporting it.
It's a great idea and if even one person seeks help because of it then its worthwhile. You have the entire rest of the year to agitate for mittens removal from eve online, perhaps you can give it a rest for this event and give the idea the space it deserves.

Gevlon said...

You are a huge hypocrite! You call this "great idea" while you happily play with someone who is everything the idea is against. You must choose between the two:
- you can say "fuck Broadcast4reps"
- you can say "fuck Mittani!"
You can't keep both!

Amarr-Zon said...

The problem is that CCP lets someone with such a mindset like The Mittani be part of their game with no (ultimate) consequences.

The B4R is by itself a good idea and may help someone, but it can be abused very easy by someone who doesn't want to help such people but only look for anyone to harass.
And the statement (even threatening one specific player in public has no consequences) may lead to people needing an ear may not use B4R.
If otherwise the statement would be 'punishment, as fast and as hard as possible' such a person in need for help could feel more safe.

Anonymous said...

Reiser FS led by Hans Reiser. It's a great file system. Hans murdered his wife. Now what? do you use ReiserFS or you don't? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Reiser Go look it up LKML was full of debate.
next
packet switching network TCP/IP as designed over several decades by ARPANET and corp rolled out in the early 90s as the INTERNET. had a very military purpose and agenda. Now what? do you still want to use the Internet you could use BBSes, they where at least homebrew and had a chance to be maintained by some psycho. The Internet as we know it was build and funded via murderers for a fact.
Look at any advancement of technology since the stoneage. You will find bullies, murderers and scamers all the way. Now what? do you abandon scissors, city infrastructure and eat vegan because some smug Egyptian Pharaoh did go apeshit some thousand years ago and tainted some tech or movement since then?
So here we go again. sheer ignorance.

Gevlon said...

A technology stand on its own merits, regardless of creators. RaizerFS is UNABLE to harm anyone. Sure considering its creator its smart to double-check the code for malware, but if it's done, there's nothing to be afraid of.

Movements stand on people so their integrity matters. In case of B4R people give out sensitive information to other people who can use it for good (helping them) or bad (using it next alliance panel). What they choose is up to them. We can predict this from their previous actions and current affiliations. Someone hanging out with The Mittani is not someone I'd trust.

Elessar Elian said...

Well while you're not entirely wrong, you're taking it too far, throwing poo at something beneficial for others to achieve your own goals.

I agree that CCP should've taken a swifter action against the Mittani the moment he said what he said. Even after the speech, when they realized it wasnt "cool", they should've done more...

In theory B4Reps is something nice and actually COULD help people in need. How/IF it actually helps is another story, I don't know what happens when a troubled individual calls them. But shitposting against it because the company didnt do what you think is right against a player (which you seem to perceive as THE EVIL personified), is bad. "Means to an end" comes to mind and honestly, noone gives a shit about your archrival when it comes to suicidal people.

Amarr-Zon said...

@Elessar Elian:
I don't see, where Gevlon throws poo on B4R or is shitposting against it.

He made clear - multiple times - that it's hypocritical, when a person supports B4R AND AT THE SAME TIME supports or even fraternizes people like The Mittani.
If one really feels the way that B4R goes (or is intended to go), one would NOT excuse such bull-shit. Otherwise the statements are highly questionable (at least) compared to the actual deeds.
The message is not about B4R itself.

Elessar Elian said...

Well, CCP doing something good after they didn't act upon a player that did something bad, surely could seem pretentious. I for one could say if the good thing they do now works and helps people, I dont really care WHY they do it. Some rich people do charities for tax relief, PR or just to feel better about themselves, I don't care why since they help those in need. CCP didnt SUPPORT that guy, just didnt act swiftly against him as they should.

All I could see from Gevlons post is "ban Mittani cause is shit, then I can get on board with that good thing you wanna do for whatever reasons".

Anonymous said...

"it's hypocritical, when a person supports B4R AND AT THE SAME TIME supports or even fraternizes people like The Mittani.
If one really feels the way that B4R goes (or is intended to go), one would NOT excuse such bull-shit. Otherwise the statements are highly questionable (at least) compared to the actual deeds."

It's not though. People have simply accepted that he's taken his punishment and admitted his mistake and moved on. Hanging out with Mittani and supporting B4R aren't mutually exclusive activities.

And Gevlon isn't even raising this because he really thinks it's hypocritical, he just thinks it's a way he can push his agenda. Like with the CCP Falcon stuff, it's just a bad attempt at propaganda to try to get CCP to act because his war on goons is failing.

Further, he'll help prove my point by refusing to post this comment after he moderates it, so I'll undoubtedly have to cross post it somewhere where free speech is allowed.

alfius said...

Gevlon, you crossed a line with this.

Mittens fucked up royally in 2012, but he had the decency and the basic humanity to recognise the fault, apologise and attempt to make amends, dragging it up again like this is cynical in the extreme. Keep your Grr Goons shit in game and in character, using B4R as an OOC vehicle for your pissant crusade is just plain awful.

Anonymous said...

As much as I'd like to permaban the Mittani, I genuinely don't believe this is a case of him wanting someone to actually commit suicide.

It is however a look into how certain people fake being a social extrovert. Anyone with real social skills could assess the context they were in and know that such a joke was inappropriate and could predict a negative reaction. He simply overplayed his hand, and combined with alcohol reducing what little social decorum he already had, made a cringeworthy gaffe.





Gevlon said...

@Elessar: but they are just doing lip service and not actual. Expecting people with suicidal thoughts to come to CCP while they fraternize with the Mittani is like expecting rape victims to press charges at a cop wearing a "No means Yes!" T-shirt. You can be factually right, he will not sabotage the case, maybe he will investigate as good as he can and he got his T-shirt from his wife as a joke, but still, would you be surprised if a victim would run away at the look at him?!

While I'm not suicidal, I'm often alone and ridiculed within the EVE community. Do you claim with a straight face that I should talk about my problems to CCP Falcon or any of his subordinates?

@Anonymous: even if my motives are completely selfish, am I not right? My points are (literally, with bullet points) is that he did NOT admit his mistakes, just did a PR speech and he was not punished, just got a slap of the wrist. Do you have anything to disprove them, or are you just coming with ad hominem attacks?

@alfius: he had no decency, just political sense. He knew he can't win this, so he did the necessary lip service. He then doubled down on his shit and called Burn Jita where his minions collected awful lot of tears. This is EXACTLY the thing he advocated during Alliance Panel: to go out and abuse people by ganking.

Clarification: I do not claim that ganking a pixel ship is abuse. I ganked myself. However ganking by Goons is more often than not followed by a tear extraction letter or calling to a tear channel.

Anonymous said...

"even if my motives are completely selfish, am I not right? My points are (literally, with bullet points) is that he did NOT admit his mistakes, just did a PR speech and he was not punished, just got a slap of the wrist. Do you have anything to disprove them, or are you just coming with ad hominem attacks?"
But you're not right, because you're throwing spin on the points. You're claiming he got off easy and should be permabanned, yet anyone in the same situation that reacted the same way would have been treated the same.

He made a single drunken mistake, and following that he:
- received a 30 day ban
- was removed from CSM, unlikely to ever be allowed to run again
- apologised directly to [redacted] and gave him significant in game funds as part of that
- apologised publicly to the entire community.

It should also be noted that [redacted] never even raised a ticket about it.

In no way was that a slap on the wrist. He did wrong, we all accept that, but he did everything he could to make it right and he took his punishment. Suggesting that CCP can't support an initiative to help depressed and suicidal players because they didn't give him a perma ban is ridiculous.

The thing is, I think you know this. You're just trying to push for CCP to ban him because it would be good for your war on goons, not because it changes anything related to B4R. On top of which, it'll change nothing. CCP will still support suicidal players and Mittani will remain unbanned, so what do you even aim to accomplish other than alienating yourself from even more of the community?

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: Stunt Flores did a stupid meme and got permabanned, despite publicly admitting his mistake and apologizing. Are you claiming that this is are more serious offense than what The Mittani did?

What I try to achieve is what Rippard Teg achieved. Erotica 1 case was closed by CCP as "not in game". He went out and collected enough community support to force CCP to reconsider. Read the comments on his own damn site and tell me I have no chance in that.

Anonymous said...

Could you maybe take a step back for a moment, you can go back to being angry afterwards.

Look at the objective of broadcast 4 reps without pairing it with scoring political points.
The sentiment there is worthy regardless of who is doing it.

Yes it shouldn't be used to serve an agenda.
You shouldn't use it to serve yours either.
This comments thread has already swung the discussion in the direction of bans & breaches.


Let them do a nice thing and move on

Gevlon said...

My point is that they cannot do the nice thing because those who need help will be afraid of further abuse since the master abuser is out large. I'm not claiming that it's factually true. It's possible that the admins can keep goons (with little "g") out of the channel. It's also possible that I'm wrong and The Mittani honestly regretted his drunken slip and is now a reformed man.

But try to think with the head of a troubled man who see enemies everywhere. Would you ask from help on a channel literally publicized on THEMITTANI.COM ?! It's like a rape victim hotline linked on nomeansyes.com.

Anonymous said...

"Stunt Flores did a stupid meme and got permabanned, despite publicly admitting his mistake and apologizing. Are you claiming that this is are more serious offense than what The Mittani did?"
Stunt Flores actively broke the rules after he got banned by publicly posting his ban and insulting CCP over it. Had he just gone to CCP and apologized, perhaps put out a public heartfelt apology, then maybe he'd have received a shorter ban. Another factor is that he'd already been banned multiple times and warned multiple times for his behaviour before as shown here by stunt himself.

"What I try to achieve is what Rippard Teg achieved. Erotica 1 case was closed by CCP as "not in game"."
First off, you're not as influential as Ripard Teg. Honestly, you're posting style and topic choices have guaranteed that the heavy hitters of the community won't follow your lead.

Secondly, Erotica 1 was involved in sustained systematic harassment of multiple players for over a year and made things worse by refusing to acknoledge fault and fighting the devs.

Thirdly, that was done at the time, not 3 years after the fact. If Mittani does something else bad, you'll probably have a better shot at getting your agenda in, but 3 years later, nothing will change.

"But try to think with the head of a troubled man who see enemies everywhere. Would you ask from help on a channel literally publicized on THEMITTANI.COM ?! It's like a rape victim hotline linked on nomeansyes.com."
Yes, I would, and no, it's nothing like that. If a police station was linked to from a site called "nomeansyes.com" do you think a rape victim should not go to the police even if not referred by that site?

Whether or not themittani.com backs B4R is irrelevant, it's still backed and run by multiple people who have nothing to do with the mittani, so even if you do let your bias rule your life, you still don't have to speak to anyone related to themittani. It's a new site reporting EVE news and B4R is EVE news. Your blog has been linked to from their site. Should we treat your blog as part of the goon empire too?

That said, I don't know of many people but you that thinks of themittani.com as a symbol of player harassment, so I imagine most people on the brink of suicide won't care that they posted about it once.

daniel said...

"What I try to achieve is what Rippard Teg achieved."
i'm sad to tell you, but you are not ripard - not only because you are not on the csm.

you also can not compare e1 and mittani; the latter indeed did his share of serving the game and the community.

in general, you want to acknowledge that this incident indeed started a turn in ccp's policy regarding player behaviour. without the mittani incident ripards campaing might not have been successfull.

Gevlon said...

@Anon: actually you should check blog ratings before talking about influence. Hint:
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/greedygoblin.blogspot.com US #319K (for some reason it only shows traffic from the US)
http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/lowseclifestyle.com US #405K

Yep, I have more readers than Sugar. Actually I have more readers than anyone except TMC, EN24 and crossingzebras. So who are exactly the heavy hitters you are talking about?

Yes, it was long ago, but now with B4R is something, the topic is revisited. The child rape things of the 70-es are revisited too, despite being 40+ years old. Why? Because people now care.

I understand that YOU would have no problem asking for help, but you are not a depressed, paranoid, abused person.

TMC is not a news site anymore than my blog. It's the Goon propaganda site, written by Goons and cronies. My blog isn't linked from their site.

Anonymous said...

"actually you should check blog ratings before talking about influence."
If blog hits were all that mattered when it comes to influence, then you would be right. Truth is though that how you compose yourself and how you treat your visitors is a much bigger component. You may get a lot of blog hits, but you rant a lot, insult a lot of people and refuse to acknowledge a lot of counterarguments with your comment moderation. This means that far fewer people are likely to back you. Sugar could rally a lot of people together in no time, you could not.

"Yes, it was long ago, but now with B4R is something, the topic is revisited."
For you, perhaps, but not for anyone else. CCP won't be reopening the case against Mittani just because they want to help suicidal people.

"TMC is not a news site anymore than my blog"
Of course it is. It's a semi-professional site with paid writers covering a range of different subjects. The writers aren't even all on the same page. You call them goon cronies simply because they post on that site, even when they are posting from an opposing viewpoint. That's your projected bias, not theirs.

This kind of goes back to why your aren't as influential as players like Sugar, because you're unwilling to look at things rationally. You've already made up your mind that anything even remotely linked to goons is bad, and you'll force everything to fit, no matter how radically you have to twist the facts. Ironically, if you did that less you'd be more influential and have more power to drive change.

Anonymous said...

For me, the rational response to not just Alex's rant but the defense thereof was to decide I did not want to give CCP any more money. Why be an enabler?

Anonymous said...

About your site rank by the way, you also should be aware that because you post more frequently and have historic posts for WoW which still attract visitors (as shown by 12% of your search rankings being for a wow mod name) you'll likely get higher on the ranks naturally.

If you were interested in your actual stats though rather than what alexa can guess, you should sort out google analytics. It's pretty easy to install, and at the moment it looks like you're running without it on most pages and a mass shared analytics key on your comment pages, which is likely to be throwing your stats out as it's shared with like 10000 sites (I assume this is part of a style or a plugin that's on your blog).

mugg said...

Sorry, this one links to your blog: https://www.themittani.com/news/anti-cfc-mercenary-contract-ended.

Basil said...

So if I were to distill this, you're saying that CCP should have punished Alexander Gianturco for bullying more strongly than just letting him resign from their inner circle. You're saying that his apology was not enough. Is that correct?

Gevlon said...

@mugg: nope. That post has a general link to my blog main page, but contains the lie "No word from Gevlon has been posted in response on his blog", despite I posted a response before their article. http://greedygoblin.blogspot.hu/2015/01/marmite-acting-suicidal.html So they purposefully avoided providing a relevant link and did a formal linking that didn't worth following.

@Basil: yes, but I'll say much more tomorrow!

mugg said...

The blog you posted was the day after TMC's article according to the dates on both.

Gevlon said...

@Mugg: date error or timezone difference. See the comment of VScorpion

Anonymous said...

"That post has a general link to my blog main page, but contains the lie "No word from Gevlon has been posted in response on his blog", despite I posted a response before their article."
Professional news sites have an editing phase which delays posts. As of the time the post was written you had posted nothing about it.

Gevlon said...

"professional news sites" use to ask both sides.

Anonymous said...

""professional news sites" use to ask both sides"
As if you would respond if messaged by someone from TMC...

tweell said...

So... TheMittani called for his buddies to abuse this other player, and got a slap on the wrist by CCP. Fellow GoonSwarm groupies defaced a statue and got a slap on the wrist by CCP.

Given that CCP is in the tank for a group of players, why should I bother with this game at all? Why should you, Gevlon?

Anonymous said...

gevlon is right,ccp is doing a stupid lip service thing again. Mittens is probably still on their hotline even if he is not CSM and his lackey are on the CSM.

There is literary no point in CCP endorsing B4R while The Mittani can still log into this game,or show up at Fanfest. He was not even forbidden from appearing at fanfest.
How is that reasonable punishment in any world?

this is so bad its almost a joke,and the sad part is most of you think gevlon is the one who is crazy

S Riojas said...

It is rather interesting that "Mittens" does not need anonymity to demonstrate the f*ckwad theory as being true. Unfortunately, EVE online demonstrates the truism of that theory daily - looking at Code., Goonswarm, and certain 'elite' PvPers. If anything, it probably demonstrates a negative influence as a lot of these people, based on fandom from their 'audience' perpetrate their stupidity into real life - see your main point regarding The Mittani advocating people to pressure a potentially unstable person to commit suicide.

I think that CCP is likely trying to promote the B4R.
I think that CCP has been trying to make changes to how they deal with these kind of issues - B4R promotion being one of them, banning people for impersonating CCP employees another.
I think that CCP can legitimately be called a hypocrite if something like the Mittani-Fan-Fest event occurs again and they don't perma ban the person.

I love how people are trying to peg you as a hypocrite by the same analogue people use to promote banning guns: "Someone killed X with a gun. Guns need to be banned!" The tool is amoral; it is neither good nor bad on it's own. People are not. I may drive a VW. Does that mean I support Nazism? No, it means I like the VW as a car (or it was the cheapest vehicle I could buy) and VW as a company does not advocate the ideals of Nazism today either.
What the Mittani did was morally evil. Anyone who espouses that mindset - harassment of players for one's own personal pleasure deserve to be banned.

Gevlon said...

@Anon: of course I wouldn't respond. But professional news sites would ask anyway and write "Gevlon declined to comment".

@tweel: I think there is a rotten group in CCP, but not most of them. For example their newly promoted lead dev Seagull don't seem to be bad. Yes, Falcon IS bad. But we should hope the good guys win and provide them ammo instead of just turning our back.