You most probably heard that MoA lost a titan. This isn't the Goon propaganda site where "WELP GODS APPEASED WE CAN OFFICIALLY WIN THIS SOVWAR NOW" is commented on such a display of stupidity. It was a loss and it is bad and it shouldn't have happened and many things need to be done to prevent it repeating.
At first, the most pressing thing is:
Secondly: the API-es of MoA pilots were checked by the leadership and those who were found owning supercapitals (mostly Nyxes) were "asked" to sell them as they have no place in the doctrines of MoA and serve no other purpose than another dumb incident waiting to happen.
Thirdly and most importantly, this incident helped me explain clearly why the usual "this was an individual pilot loss" line of the Goons is nonsense. The less than genius titan pilot did it to help out his alliance, to have more bridging titans. He probably imagined the moment when he jumps it to 5ZXX-K front of his friends and announces that his services are available. So he had the will to help the group. He also had the resources to do it. What he lacked is the knowledge, so instead of sending the 110B to the donation board or buying 25 suicide dreads and handing it to anyone can fly them to allow MoA kill Goon titans without batphoning, he bought a titan and lost it in 31 minutes. The point is that unless a pilot is totally uninterested in his group, his assets are ready to help the group and their destruction removes that possibility. Had he arrived to 5ZXX-K safely he'd surely be instructed to sell it back and use his money more wisely, netting MoA some utility. That utility was lost by the death of the titan, just like the utility of the trillions of ISK wasted in ratting bling are lost to the Imperium. In simpler terms: unless the player would not help his alliance at all, making him individually weaker makes the whole alliance weaker.
From this comes the solution: the members must be informed how can they use their ISK for their alliance. The information must be available in a way that they actually consume, not just some announcement in the forum that most don't read. It must be clear like "guys we need dreads, so if you have ISK laying around, send it to alliance_dread_guy". People want to contribute, most just don't know how and buying some bling looks like a straightforward solution. It looked to me for sure. Finally proper recognition should be given to those who use it the right way instead of creating the next ridiculous loss report.
Stupid does happen. You can't help it. However you can stop the moron from spread his "wisdom" by removing him and you can create rules to prevent the stupid act repeating. Some alliances, like MoA does what needs to be done. Others say "didn't want it anyway" or "it waz fun lol" and keep being bad. Guess who'll win!
If you think the titan purchase of Laurel and Hardy (as Gen Eve described the pilot and his cyno buddy) broke the morale of MoA, here is a little list of their last day actions: roaming Goon dread, strange fit dread, Imperium Tengus vs MoA Auguror Navies.
Update: The idea that MoA won't lose more idiotic crap and will have a dread fleet instead, made a Goon minion very mad. Oh wait, another tear thread. Goons are mad for MoA will no longer have morale-inducing stupid losses. Note: none of the changes are by me. I'm not in MoA leadership, I'm not even in MoA. I just make some publicity to their good decisions.
At first, the most pressing thing is:
Secondly: the API-es of MoA pilots were checked by the leadership and those who were found owning supercapitals (mostly Nyxes) were "asked" to sell them as they have no place in the doctrines of MoA and serve no other purpose than another dumb incident waiting to happen.
Thirdly and most importantly, this incident helped me explain clearly why the usual "this was an individual pilot loss" line of the Goons is nonsense. The less than genius titan pilot did it to help out his alliance, to have more bridging titans. He probably imagined the moment when he jumps it to 5ZXX-K front of his friends and announces that his services are available. So he had the will to help the group. He also had the resources to do it. What he lacked is the knowledge, so instead of sending the 110B to the donation board or buying 25 suicide dreads and handing it to anyone can fly them to allow MoA kill Goon titans without batphoning, he bought a titan and lost it in 31 minutes. The point is that unless a pilot is totally uninterested in his group, his assets are ready to help the group and their destruction removes that possibility. Had he arrived to 5ZXX-K safely he'd surely be instructed to sell it back and use his money more wisely, netting MoA some utility. That utility was lost by the death of the titan, just like the utility of the trillions of ISK wasted in ratting bling are lost to the Imperium. In simpler terms: unless the player would not help his alliance at all, making him individually weaker makes the whole alliance weaker.
From this comes the solution: the members must be informed how can they use their ISK for their alliance. The information must be available in a way that they actually consume, not just some announcement in the forum that most don't read. It must be clear like "guys we need dreads, so if you have ISK laying around, send it to alliance_dread_guy". People want to contribute, most just don't know how and buying some bling looks like a straightforward solution. It looked to me for sure. Finally proper recognition should be given to those who use it the right way instead of creating the next ridiculous loss report.
Stupid does happen. You can't help it. However you can stop the moron from spread his "wisdom" by removing him and you can create rules to prevent the stupid act repeating. Some alliances, like MoA does what needs to be done. Others say "didn't want it anyway" or "it waz fun lol" and keep being bad. Guess who'll win!
If you think the titan purchase of Laurel and Hardy (as Gen Eve described the pilot and his cyno buddy) broke the morale of MoA, here is a little list of their last day actions: roaming Goon dread, strange fit dread, Imperium Tengus vs MoA Auguror Navies.
Update: The idea that MoA won't lose more idiotic crap and will have a dread fleet instead, made a Goon minion very mad. Oh wait, another tear thread. Goons are mad for MoA will no longer have morale-inducing stupid losses. Note: none of the changes are by me. I'm not in MoA leadership, I'm not even in MoA. I just make some publicity to their good decisions.
18 comments:
So was the Cyno character also kicked from Alliance?
So, you claim imperium players are pets under tyrannical control of their leader, yet at the same time you endorse that MOA leadership gets total control over what their pilots spend their own money on and what ships they are allowed to own.
I'm glad I live in the imperium tyranny where I can decide my own playstyle outside of stratops.
Yes, client says for Elnoo Caldari Provisions 2015.09.14 23:36 to this day.
No, every group member must adhere to the rules of the group. If you don't like MoA rules, don't play in MoA. The Imperium is tryanny because there are no rules, whatever the Mittani and his cronies make up at a whim will be done. See what happened with Miniluv: the Mittani found Max Singularity funny, so he ordered them to an impossible mission: burn Amarr.
@ Anon 6:33
MoA tyranny = Standard Operating Procedures to maximize combat effectiveness and fun. Necessary when living behind enemy lines, outnumbered 10 to 1, and still kicking ass.
Goon tyranny is actual tyranny, they tell their players which regions they are not allowed to go to, pilots are forced to fleet up a minimal amount of time each month, and the poor 0.0 sec industrialists are taxed beyond belief, to the point of usury.
Not to mention the fact that Goons love to impose their play-style on the care bears and young bloods in highsec: ganking and griefing industrialists and newbs. The very definition of tyranny. Yes EVE is a sand box and you can choose to play any way you want; the Goons have chosen to play the role of tyrant and bad guy. Don't deny it. You guys love it.
We like to hunt goons- it's our playstyle.
" The Imperium is tryanny because there are no rules, whatever the Mittani and his cronies make up at a whim will be done"
And "We have invented a new rule which tells you what you can spend your personal isk on" is different than "making it up on a whim" how?
"Don't lose bling" and "watch for the killboard" were ALWAYS the rule in MoA. This is merely a clarification for those who can't think for themselves. Those who could think did not buy titans.
So in MOA your personal ISK is MOA's isk, your personal actions all need to be in line with what the leadership wants and to be successful they need external funding.
That almost seems like a political system practiced in only a few more countries.
In the Imperium we can actually go to any region we want, taxes are nowhere near as bad as people seem to think and industrialists can function quite well. In fact, private enterprises are allowed as much as you want, if you fail, that's up to you.
And yes, people are asked to fleet. I doubt MOA would keep pilots that do not participate in alliance operations.
I doubt anyone will deny the imperium likes to play the bad guy role, though the ganking tends to be limited to certain days, unlike organizations like CODE. As for scamming. This is EVE. Unless you believe every single scammer is secretly a goon front that's hardly unique.
I'd like to point out that the suggestion you gave almost something like what a competent social would do :)
I wouldn't go far as the previous anon, condemning all attempts to limit individuals, because the simple fact of the matter is that some individuals are idiots. However, the similarity is really very much there.
@anon 15:42
Actually as a Section 8 member we are not allowed into Deklein. We can't really even go into High Sec without permission. We pay a tax rate of 25%. And we can only buy things at the local goon trade hub where the prices are outrageous. We are not allowed to sell our ore to anyone but the corporation. Our CEO treats us like shit. Like he's better than us.We call him the overseer when he's not logged in.
As soon as I can get out I will, but I'm afraid that all my stuff will get vaporized when I drop corp and try to get out of Null Sec. With any luck I'll find a cloaking device or some warp stabs to help me in my escape.
"We can't really even go into High Sec without permission."
I go to highsec multiple times per week, usually running my own JF back and forth. No issues yet, other than wardecs (which are dealt with easily when tended to properly).
"We pay a tax rate of 25%."
Tax rate is 15%.
"we can only buy things at the local goon trade hub"
I buy and sell in the popular anom systems and in the local SoE and Mordu's Angels systems regularly. Haven't had one person say 'boo' about it, yet.
"the prices are outrageous."
Prices are higher, but as an industrialist, that's not because we're gouging you (Goons really have a thing against gouging, and hunt gougers quite actively). It's because the local materials are more expensive (AKA, the miners and moon miners) and importing from Jita costs fuel, time, and risk.
The bulk of the stuff I sell only pulls 3-4% net profit for me.
"We are not allowed to sell our ore to anyone but the corporation."
As an industrialist who hates mining, I laugh at that. I buy ore (and moon goo) all the time, via both both buy and sell orders.
"Our CEO treats us like shit."
Hmm... wait a moment. Your CEO treats you badly? So, you're in the Section 8 program plan, and in your own corp? If that's the case, the problem with your CEO (and probably all the problems you listed above) are the corp's issue, not Section 8's. Blame your CEO for imposing crazy rules.
Don't bash Section 8 just because you have a bad CEO leading your corp. Me and my 2 alts are loving it. I'm making bank while paying a meager 1 mil a day for a single tower. I made back the 2 bil in a matter of weeks, and the rest have been extremely profitable.
You and I have vastly different experiences, and from what you've said, I assume that you're either a MoA account trying to bash the project, or you're someone whose CEO is a troglodyte who needs to be dumped back into the genetic soup for a few billion years more.
"Actually as a Section 8 member we are not allowed into Deklein. We can't really even go into High Sec without..."
Troll much?
> The Imperium is tryanny because there are no rules
I'm not quite sure you understand the concept of tyranny.
Tyranny is where the leader does whatever he wants with you.
Tyranny is the rule of a tyrant ( a cruel master). A tyrant abides no rules as is the law.
Gevlon has the right of it in his use of that word.
>Tyranny is where the leader does whatever he wants with you.
> Had he arrived to 5ZXX-K safely he'd surely be instructed to sell it back and use his money more wisely,
> the members must be informed how can they use their ISK for their alliance.
Having rules isn't tyranny. The USA isn't a tyranny just because you can't drive with 250MPH on the highway.
"Don't fly bling, especially supers" is simply good practice if you live deep behind enemy lines, outnumbered 20:1. This was ALWAYS the rule of MoA, it just needed to be clarified and emphasized to people who considered themselves special.
If you insist on dropping titans, PL and Snuff are much better places for you than MoA.
> Had he arrived to 5ZXX-K safely he'd surely be instructed to sell it back and use his money more wisely,
> the members must be informed how can they use their ISK for their alliance.
Gevlon, I just want to re-iterate a point I made previously. MoA leadership can not and will not have the "final say" in what is ultimately the personal transactions of a member. I agree that encouragements can and should be made when it comes to this amount of money, but if a person really wants a titan then that person is going to get a titan. Would you rather that was done with key people informed, and trusted and knowledgeable people overseeing the operation... or done in private trusting a single non-leadership person and jumping to a snuff cyno?
End of the day, killboard stats is just killboard stats. We're here to have fun, get fights, dumpster our enemies, etc, just like everyone else in EVE. The ideological crusade is fun, ethically justifyable (who doesn't love hating the big power bloc?) and provides huge slews of content. It also leads to some interesting guerilla-style gameplay and intriguing diplomatic interactions with other powers.
But actively cracking down on someone because of such a trivial thing as killboard stats is not something the MoA I know would be doing - and I honestly haven't seen that happening to anyone outside of MASSADEATH, which is a corp-level problem, not an alliance-level one. Lose blinged-out Barghests and Machariels all day every day for all I care, as long as you take a lot of scalps with you and don't actively avoid playing as a team.
@anon357: MoA leadership DOES have the "final say" in who plays in MoA. If they do not wish a titan loss on their killboard, do not wish the whole EVE identify the very skilled and successful pilots of MoA with an idiot, they can and SHOULD make steps to prevent it.
MoA strategies do not include dropping titans, so even if the titan pilot would be smart enough to not lose it, he'd be bored and quit EVE or quit MoA. If someone really wants to fly a titan, the honest advice is to join PL or Snuff first.
Please note that "dumpster our enemies" is measured by killboard stats. That's the point: measurement. A pilot with good killboard stats is dunking. The pilot with bad stats is being dunked. Having bad killboard stats equals to "being unskilled".
What's the difference between "Lose blinged-out Barghests and Machariels all day every day for all I care, as long as you take a lot of scalps with you" and "Lose blinged-out Barghests and Machariels all day while killing no one"? You guessed it, killboard stats. For example Khan Farshatok lost a 1B Sin https://zkillboard.com/kill/48693535/, but he is still great pilot as he killed 3360M ISK worth of Imperium, losing 1552M in August. How do I know that? I analyzed the killboards http://greedygoblin.blogspot.hu/2015/09/august-mordus-angels-report.html
I've never said that one should be flying only Cormorants. I'm saying that one should kill more than he loses. Some ships are simply too expensive to be overcome. MoA has 76% ratio against the Imperium. So to make up for a 100B titan loss, you must kill 300B solo to be average. I doubt that anyone in the history of EVE ever did that.
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