Greedy Goblin

Wednesday, January 28, 2015

No Burn Jita mercenary plan

Burn Jita will happen in the following months and I obviously want to trash it. I wouldn't mind paying 100B to anyone ruining it for the Evil. Burn Jita has no strategic purpose, it exists to bring suffering to the "highsec pubbies" who are considered subhuman by the Evil Goons. Ruining this would hit them in their core belief.

However I failed to set up a ruleset that would prevent someone scam the 100B out of me. For example the Evil One announces Burn Jita at March first weekend, the mercenaries show up in force, no Goons show up, nothing dies, they claim prize and then the Evil One laughs and announces another Burn Jita at the second weekend.

The document of shame proved that there is no serious force in nullsec that wouldn't deal with the Evil One in order to get some RMT money for themselves. So I don't see any group that would not make a deal with Goons to claim the prize without actually hurting Burn Jita. Unfortunately my usual mercenaries and donation recipients don't have the numbers to defeat Burn Jita on their own.

In my current mercenary and donation schemes trust isn't an issue. I pay a few billions every week and if they don't perform, no payment next week. If any of them would betray me or simply go full retard, I lose the weekly few billions. I lost more on mistypes. But Burn Jita is a one-time event, so I have to offer a large sum up-front, making a scam pretty expensive, even to my standards.

To make the offer scam-free, I have to bind it to numerical results. But the Goons use worthless Catalysts, so no one will be tempted to jam Catas for 2-3M each. If I pay more than the value of the Cata, people just jam their own alt. The only thing I could come up with is offering SRP to bait freighters.

So here I am with 100B to spend, but no way to spend it, because there aren't reliable large-scale mercenaries in EVE. Obviously I'll cook up something, but at the moment I don't expect to defeat Burn Jita.

By the way the above reminds us about the strange lack of anti-ganker forces. I mean, gankers are destroying 1T+/month, so the gank victims would be better off paying 2-400B/month to a professional anti-ganker. Unfortunately the gank victims are idiots who do nothing but providing tears to the gankers and petitions to CCP, but wouldn't give a dime to anyone protecting them or do anything to protect themselves. The countless "anti-ganker movements" all died of inactivity. Everyone demanded someone else to do something for free. If they weren't so dumb, there would already be a reliable anti-gank force that I could hire against Burn Jita.

Highsec wardeccers existed before my GRR project. I only needed to hire them to fight my enemies. Pirate organizations fighting in CFC space existed before me, I only needed to support them to increase their performance. But there aren't any anti-gankers, so money can buy me nothing here.

However Burn Jita isn't the only thing the minions of Evil do this year. Enough damage can be done to them without Burn Jita, by hunting their ratters in nullsec and haulers in highsec.


Anonymous said...

> Burn Jita has no strategic purpose

It does, it has a short term impact on the market which is specifically targeted by the goon financial kabal.

> "highsec pubbies" who are considered subhuman by the Evil Goons

They are considered "highsec pubbies". Nowhere is it said or implied that Goons think they are "sub human"
Emotive language does not further your argument.

> So here I am with 100B to spend, but no way to spend it

For 100bn you could hire just about any corp - try a wormhole corp.. they enjoy jumping out of their holes to shoot things and don't mind losing big to do it.

Anonymous said...

There is already an "Anti-ganker" force in high sec. CONCORD.

If you gank, CONCORD kills you every time. Your losses are 100%.

The trick is teaching the gankees to NOT DIE during the gank. Tragically... that's a hard one because the gankees are a seriously stupid bag of rocks that can't be bothered to do even the simplest thing... like put a DCII on their ship and actually turn it on every time they undock.

...So. You have a sack of isk and want to put the crimp on "Burn Jita." Ok. Promise ship cost X 2 to anyone killed by Goons while being properly tanked in a Freighter or Orca.

Wait... They won't even attack those ships. Just like CODE doesn't bother with Procurers or Skiffs.

You can't fix stupid.

Another Byte on the Web. said...

You could try striking a deal with some nullsec power to siege goon territory during burn Jita. Considering how much manpower gets used on that, it might have some interesting results.

maxim said...

I concur with the first anon.

"Serves no strategic purpose" is a misconception.

Burn Jita is an exellent tool to make some profit from insider trading off morons who operate in the market and either don't know BJ is coming, or are unable to prepare for it.

Want to hit BJ where it hurts with 100B? Try to anticipate where the Goons are going to make money off it and cut into the pie that BJ is going to create.

Gevlon said...

@Maxim: it's cheap propaganda. No product prices changed in previous Burn Jitas, just volumes decreased somewhat. There is no profit here.

Goons just do it to be mean and make "highsec pubbies" cry.

maxim said...

This is weird. This is not consistent with an effect an attack on supply should have.

Possible explanations
1) Burn Jita doesn't really dent supply of whatever goods it is supposed to hurt as per goon propaganda. The amount of these goods farmed in Jita is not really relevant and people find ways to supply them to Jita burn or no burn
2) Burn Jita hurts demand for its own goods as much as it hurts supply
3) You are indeed correct and it is just pure terrorism for fun and very little profit in ISK sense

maxim said...

And, obviously, explanation number 4 - you don't have perfect information of all impacts of Burn Jita.

The way i forgot all about it, however, just shows that i simply assume competence on your part in that regard :D

Anonymous said...

I'm in two minds. on one hand BJ is about goons providing content to bored line members. any resistance just gives them more content and being from you gives the leadership another rallying point.

I think hitting the goons at home while they take their yearly excursion to highsec may have some merit. it would have to be round the clock pressure to have any effect though. else the goons just log in BJ alts in any downtime.

BJ is fun for the average line member. perhaps any attack on it should be focused on those doing the hard work, the logistics (suppliers not healers) guys are the ones who make BJ happen. find out the price of fitted catalyst internal contracts and sell yours lower perhaps?

Ryanis said...

Take your 100B, buy siphon units, ask your mercenaries tu put them on Goons lucrative moons during burn Jita and bomb everything trying to kill them.

That's may make goons really angry.

Anonymous said...

Not all goons are on burn jita. it is no mandatory op. A lot dont participate and stay in cfc space.

Also there are profits to be made during burn jita. if you dont see it, well good for me. i allways make a lot trading money during bj, due to spikes.

99smite said...

Dear Gevlon,

"Burn Jita" may have started out as a goon propaganda event, but it has become part of EVE's main culture. Hundreds of scavengers try to loot the ships after a gank, hundreds of cloaked spectators sit patiently at gates to watch overloaded (iskwise) freighter blow up, followed by hilarious CONCONRD firework...

Even the date is broadcasted way ahead, OUTSIDE goon comms, so how can an EVE pilot WITH common sense get terrorized? HE knows either to tankfit the freighter or just let the freighter stay docked for the event.

As you have stated, so many people who play EVE are unbelievably dumb! As you have realized some time ago, even your "why was I ganked" campaign was fruitless in the sense that miner still mine without a proper tank.

What you are doing is spinning some tale of evil around the goons. Many players who have played EVE for a long time have come to the conclusion that the goons have become reformed somehow.

You have atteacked defenseless "highsec pubbies" when you calculated that your attacl would result in success.
Same goes for the goons. Ofc they will tell anyone that they will attack whomever they want to, but that is just PR.

Why fuss about it? You still refuse to understand that "Goons" are an alliance and an alliance cannot be seriously hit by killing some stray dumb haulers...

MoA are still "only" pirates, whereas BRAVE at least try to settle in 0.0 and get serious. MoA seemingly do not evolve as they lack the pressure of adaption thanks to your pvp charity...

Maybe just lean back and do a brainstorming in order to find new aspects and strategies that would suit your goal better...

Anonymous said...

If Burn Jita was only about killing hopeless people. I would suggest to kill Goons targets faster than they possibly could. So they sit there killing nothing.
They will spin it to their success. Also as noted the Goon marketers profit anyway. Just by announcing the event.

So I really don't see a ingame method to hurt their time investment.

Anonymous said...

I thought punishing morons and slackers was your thing? If so surely you want idiots in overloaded freighters who can't pay the slightest attention to forums to explode.
I would have thought you and the CFC were aligned on this one.

Anonymous said...

Why don't you hire people to fly in web bonused frigates like daredevil and web the freighters into warp? 3-6 or more webs on a freighter should work.

Anonymous said...

Have you considered sponsoring anti-gankers much like you did lemmings? You're a seasoned ganker so I'm sure you can help teach anti-gankers the best methods to halt gankers, and you could offer rewards for stopping ganks and SRP when losing dedicated anti-gank ships during a gank. These anti-gankers could be in NPC corps or random corps and just brought together in private channels dedicated to stopping ganking. You could have a mix of ECM ships to reduce incoming DPS, logistics to repair damaged freighters and fast attack ships to take out as many gankers before they finish their attacks as possible.

It's something you could consider starting now so that they will be well trained in gank prevention by the time the goons attack. We are all aware that code is run by the goons anyway, so by training up preventing random ganks in high risk areas, you'd already be hurting goons anyway, then when they do burn jita, you could pay your assembled crew to guard all gank spots in Jita, disrupting ganks across the whole period.

Thomas Chasteaux said...

There is already an organization that offers rewards for those who take a career in "AG".

* Private channels already exist.
* ISK bounty payments are given for each KM.
* Ganking speed-tanked bumper machariels is also rewarded.
* Ships are given out as rewards for reaching milestones in your AG career.

There are no "Save-Mails" for preventing ganks against miners. This act of altruism is neither shouted to the heavens, nor valued in any major EVE news outlets. :)
So you don't hear much about those instances, yet within our organization they happen with great frequency.

Saving freighters is a rarer occurrence. The difficulty and challenge level is high and dependent on how many "volunteers" you can muster at any given time, any given place, and any given location.

But we are a determined lot and enjoy the challenge.

Regardless of whether Gevlon would even think to pay us or not, if anyone is interested in attempting to bend the goon\code Burn Jita success curve, to take up the challenge, then contact me.

Even one person can make a difference, and perhaps the biggest mental hurdle for many is that their effort may not matter.

I once came across a Mittani led Talos gank-fleet. They fail-fitted them without their ganking permits installed (ECCM). My falcon successfully jammed 5 or 6 ('many', and a beautiful sight), and the gank failed against the freighter. They left the system in pods, but not before one of the goons cried in local " 'F...' the Police " .

Moments that make you smile quietly to yourself.

All that exists is a record of many goon Talos CONCORDED, with a hole where a freighter KM normally would be.

It is in that space, where you will find those who dare to do some of the the hardest and thankless work in EVE.

Anonymous said...

"There is already an organization that offers rewards for those who take a career in "AG"."
Well obviously they don;t do a very good job, because anti-gankers can be very effective with very little effort. A few ECM blackbirds and logi ships placed on the gates in Niarja would stop that system being able to be used for ganking at all.

I definitely think that if the efforts were focused though and much more widely advertised and funded, that anti-gankers could be far more effective.

Thomas Chasteaux said...

* "[freighter] anti-gankers can be very effective with very little effort."

Anyone who claims it requires little effort, and is easy, has never done it.

* "A few ECM blackbirds ..."

Anyone suggesting using a few blackbirds doesn't understand, or has faced, the mechanics of ECCM. You need Falcons, and even then you will get no better than a less than 25% success rate on any given jam attempt.

If it was easy, freighter ganks would have been stopped and prevented long ago. Instead, it rages on, either through apathy or difficulty but not because "it's simple to stop".

I've witnessed no less than Red Frog escorts fail to rescue their own ships.

* You need scouts
* You need fast ships
* You need shield and armor rep cruisers in good, solid numbers - not a few
* You need Falcons to force the gankers to wear their ganking permits (ECCM) or risk failing miserably
* You need alpha ships to keep the freighter looters honest and to protect your fleet mates
* You need a webber to help freighter pilots align and the good fortune to get the freighter pilot to trust you enough to allow a limited engagement (meanwhile the ganker fleet attempts the same, but to con the freighter pilot and doom them even more)
* You need a fast prober to scan down those freighter pilots who naively believe that logging out will save their ship
* You need Logi pilots with skills and ability to field shield/armor and hull drones and the ability to scramble to alter their fits when the freighter is saved, heavily damaged and needs immediate repairs across all hp bands
* You need a dedicated communications fleet pilot bringing the bumped freighter pilots on comms to assess their situation and work out a plan of escape.

Freighter AG is a high-intensity, high-stakes, frenetic event.

Anyone claiming otherwise is simply an armchair general with a salty bag of popcorn.

Anonymous said...

Why hire mercs?

Why not hire, say, EVE University?

It would be a win-win. The uni loves teaching newbies. You want people to learn to avoid JITA for those two days, and drive down the number of kills GSF manages to get. Just pay EVE Uni to station their guys around JITA spamming "DO NOT GO TO JITA - IT IS CAMPED BY SUICIDE GANKERS. BTW CONSIDER JOINING EVE UNI" in local all weekend. They get recruits and ISK, you achieve your goal of disrupting burn Jita. Plus, it is probably cheaper for you, because they don't have to worry about losing ships - they can spam local while cloaked up with no chance of ship loss - and they like teaching, so they'd charge less than a merc corp. Plus, all the ISK would go back to helping new players. The only people who would lose from such a deal are GSF.

Manserk said...

You can't prevent ganking from happening, ever, the devs encourage it.

Gankers take no risk at all, even if you kill them they have worthless ship, you can't target them unless you are a ganker yourself.

This is what is happening with CODE, I can really see them being one of the next top high sec alliance.