Greedy Goblin

Tuesday, January 27, 2015

Bad Karma

When I was in TEST, I saw the problems that everyone else: TEST had lot of line members but lacked FCs, leaders and specialists. I also saw that many "elite" alliances have lot of FCs, leaders and specialists and few line members. For me, the solution was obvious: merge the willing ones into a big "TEST-corp" and offer this corp to a friendly alliance.

My idea wasn't well received. "We are independent", "we have our own culture", "we won't be Nulli/PL/NC. pets" and so on, and so on. The result is well-known: the remaining little talent was poached by PL, the headless line members were unable to defend Fountain, despite having the numbers.

History repeated itself with BRAVE. Their members are high even compared to old TEST, their newbieness is even more dominant part of their identity, and their competence is even worse. Since they left NPC null, they serve as nothing but "content" for PL and NC. Their ratting numbers (economy) are horrible and they failed to establish any kind of goal or direction that would keep anyone with brains in the organization. BRAVE is a good place for newbies and "let's have fun" kids, but such creatures don't fare well in nullsec.

They didn't realize that while BRAVE would be an awesome corp for an alliance, bringing numbers, it cannot function as an alliance. Goons realized it and started collecting BRAVE-members into their slave-corp Karmafleet. I'm sad that no one in N3 realized the value of BRAVE and instead of gaining these newbies into their armada, they let Goons grab them as slaves.

Of course, newbies joining Karmafleet are making a fatal mistake. Rayonar is a living evidence how much Goons despise their "allies". If an FC, director and titan pilot can be treated as crap, what can a barely useful newbie expect?! But newbies being newbies, we can't be surprised that they don't know that.

This is the 24th hour. Either N3 realizes that they are wasting thousands of people and offer something similar as Karmafleet for the Braves or BRAVE will slowly wither and die, losing talent to N3/PL and line members to Goons. I'm afraid, only when they face the slave army of Karmafleet will they realize how dumb they were when they used BRAVE for target practice.


maxim said...

The conclusion requires being able to make the connection between using BRAVE for target practice and emerging Karmafleet.

In absence of that, I expect it'll mostly be just whining about f1-pushers

Good point otherwise :)

How are Goons on talent front? Do they have enough managers to handle the influx of this amount of new players?

Anonymous said...

Goons have an excellent structure

There IT backbone is strong.

There is fleets going out more often then not.

(Historically there have been a few bad FC but they tend to be self regulatory since ppl don't fleet up under bad FC:s bad beeing one who takes multiple bad fights and then rage on the members). -- IMHO

Goon have always have had a very simple way of dealing with new entities ... you do your part or your out! Goons have very good metrics. The big payload here will come on the the leadership of Karma fleet not on Goon High command. They have to prove there worth to the CFC. If they are not good enough for goons, goons will help them find a new housing in another CFC entity. unless they are total slackers then they get evicted.

Anonymous said...

Why would N3 or PL care about adding a reddit based membercorp to their ranks, they already use Brave as a meat shield.

No risk, all the reward.

Anonymous said...

Yes I have numerous times said
that the so called Elitistic Alliances of Eve are missing the point.

Ever new alliance need new blood coming in or they will eventually stale.

there will always be a need for newer players in null.
Saying you have to have X amount of SP or played for Y amount of time or know Z your limiting your resources available.

back in the day when Test was in CFC there was essential only two new player friendly alliances out there TEST & Goons. You can argue what ever you want but the fact was the had the numbers.

Old Test is gone!
New test is well.....
Brave is stalling due to leadership issues.
Goons stealing all the goods in the store. Yes your right they are doing it but its not something new it have been happening since before 2012....

Anonymous said...

Firstly, Brave isn't Test mk2. Test made a virtue out of being terrible in a way that brave doesn't. Brave is a thousand pilots in frigates, they can also field full fleets of T3s etc. because a lot of experienced people have joined them for the content.

Whether N3 have stopped recruiting or not I can't really say. But PL have never stopped recruiting at any rate - their style of fighting requires force multipliers, so it's going to be slower than any reddit based alliance, but it is fairly constant.

Provi Miner said...

@ anom 11:01 goon or test? now Brave? There is another alliance one that doesn't demand shit from newbies, they can come in and try should they like it they are more than welcome to hook in and fly. CVA of course (some alliances are better than others at new people integration but thats fairly standard).

daniel said...

you yet and again do not acknowledge individual playstyle, and assume that your, and cfcn3pl's, way of playing this game is the only one.

"History repeated itself with BRAVE."
it didn't

"Their members are high even compared to old TEST,"
you'll find on the internet the statement that alot of brave pilots are alts of other aliances players alot, therefore, their original size is likely to be much smaller.

"their newbieness is even more dominant part of their identity,"
they have matured, their members have sp and skill now.

"and their competence is even worse."
you mind having a quote on that? cause what one was reading from the deployment, they seemed to do pretty well.

"Since they left NPC null, they serve as nothing but "content" for PL and NC."
or, pl deployed to catch to bring them content.
btw, from that logic, proviblock's only reason to exist is to serve as content ;) ***

"Their ratting numbers (economy) are horrible"
obvieously, it is sufficient to keep them in ships.

"and they failed to establish any kind of goal or direction that would keep anyone with brains in the organization."
null without the meta-politics bolloks seems to be a goal/direction good enough to keep them logging in.

"BRAVE is a good place for newbies and "let's have fun" kids, but such creatures don't fare well in nullsec."
yet, they still exist.

once karmfleet get's rolling, we will see newbies really will find the goonish playstyle (structure bashing, blueballing, siege bombing etc) that joyfull. if they do, fine, they have a future in one of eve's powerblocks.
if on the other hand they will find goodfights, even at the cost of loosing a few (cheap) ships more joyful, maybe brave will be keeping on to cater for that playstyle.

in general, the last years have demonstrated that there are game mechanics that are broken and lead to the n+1-f1.pusher problem. ccp has realised that and is reworking the game in general, and sov.null (warfare) in specific. someday in the (not that distant) future, n+1 won't be the only way to win a war anymore.

*** before you start arguing, please note the "only".
and btw, everybody in this gamne serves as content for someone.

Anonymous said...

PL & N3 have FCs but do they have administrative capabilities for a very large newbie corp. PL certainly and N3 likely have lesser srp and hr workload than Goons, old Test or BNI.

Anonymous said...

We deployed from lowsec to sov null - living in Barleguet, moving to stage to Sendaya when we first attacked Catch, then moving in to V-3 during the campaign, now living next door in GE-. NPC null wasn't part of it.

Anonymous said...

Re: some alliances would be better off as corps in someone else's alliance
In theory yes, but this is a staggering risk to take.
Wasn't there a big story recently about a corp joining BL, BL openly poaching their members, and then them parting ways, the corp a shadow of its former self?
Staying as your own alliance probably won't end you within weeks, but as stories like that show, joining someone else's alliance just might end you quickly.
This isn't necessarily about ideology as you suggest - the reluctance can stem from purely practical concerns.
I'd actually go as far as to say that for most people, which nullsec power block/group they join is more about practical concerns than ideology.
Not everyone is ideology-driven, or even cares much about ideology. If they did, perhaps CFC would not be so successful.

Re: Brave being bad.
I'd say PL and NC serve as content for us. They bring expensive ships, we bring cheap stuff. Sure, we die a lot, but we're also very much ISK positive.
We've had newbies in comms whose first killmail, 3 days in, was a titan or super. That's the BRAVE spirit right there.
Yes, our ratting numbers are bad, but that's because essentially nobody rats.
We're not the CFC, with everyone ratting constantly, needing PAPlinks to get people to undock something other than ratting ships. People come to HERO to PVP, not rat.
You shouldn't measure economy by ratting numbers. Instead, measure them by # of active orders, ISK value traded, etc, similar to how market hubs are measured.
See how active GE is as a market compared to the major trade hubs - or indeed any other system in EVE. Then try telling us our economy is bad. You can't.

Re: "let's have fun" kids
Newbies and "let's have fun" kids can do great in nullsec.
"How do I make ISK?" is an easier problem to solve than "How do I create content when there isn't any?"
If this wasn't true, HERO wouldn't be amongst the fastest growing nullsec entities.

Re: N3
N3 is smart not to try to ally itself with HERO.
For one, HERO wouldn't accept it. Culturally, N3 would not be a good fit, and we have a "blue donuts are bad" policy, and they're all about the blue donut.
For another, a team of N3 + HERO could threaten CFC dominance, and might trigger a major shake up.
This would be great for nullsec and EVE in general, but amongst the major nullsec alliances, nobody really seems to want a war on that scale.

Re: PL
Yes, we have lost a few people to N3/PL, but we also have PL players hanging out on our comms, sometimes even helping with our classes, etc.
I think it says something that even rich, experienced players often choose to play with us, even on an alt, rather than their main alliance.
Some would argue they're just trying to recruit our best people, but I don't believe it - from what I've seen they are here to have fun because their main alliance doesn't have the fun-per-hour BRAVE does.
When vets are defecting to us because of our fun-per-hour, I'd say that counts as BRAVE winning EVE.