Greedy Goblin

Thursday, January 29, 2015

Business post: sell your freighter!

CCP ruled that attacking more than once during one GCC cycle is not an exploit. This means that ganking no longer has time costs, therefore no longer need a large fleet to share the man-hours. The ganker loses his first Catalyst, warps away, mounts a shuttle in a safe (can be just 200km away), warps back, mounts the next Catalyst. This means that a single ganker (with a bumper) can destroy a max-tanked Obelisk (1B if empty), using 30 T1 fit Catalysts (30M).

While this tactics isn't without counter (an anti-ganker could simply steal the ejected ships), this doesn't help the freighter pilot. So what can you do to prevent being ganked by a single player using 30M worth of ships? Simple: sell your freighter. Freighters and jump freighters have no place in highsec after this announcement, just like Hulks don't have. Hulks are expensive, can't be tanked and just barely better than Retrievers. Only dumb ones use Hulks and only dumb ones fly freighters in highsec.

This gank method - along with the previous Cata-fleet gank method - depends on bump-tackle. The freighter can't warp away because a bumping ship keeps it from aligning. Ships that can't be bumped are safe from these ganks and can only be ganked the old way: by expensive Tornadoes. After the mineral compression and the T2 transport ship changes there is nothing in highsec that you can't move in transport ships. Transports have 100K+ EHP tank and Afterburner + micro-jump drive to get away from any bumper. If the cargo is expensive, you can hide it with double-wrapping. I barely seen suicide gank losses for Occators, which are the best highsec transports:

[Occator, +1% CPU implant needed]
Damage Control II
Reinforced Bulkheads II
Reinforced Bulkheads II
Reinforced Bulkheads II
Reinforced Bulkheads II
Reinforced Bulkheads II

10MN Afterburner II
Medium Micro Jump Drive
Upgraded EM Ward Amplifier I

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Transverse Bulkhead II
Medium Transverse Bulkhead II

Just get rid of your freighter. If you fly it, you are asking for being ganked. The gankers no longer need fleet, so scouting and flying off-times won't help you. What to do if you have large volume of items? Contract it and let others lose their freighters. Don't be stupid and fly a 1B ship that can be solo killed using 30M ships!


PS: What's the best pod for an unfit frig? A full crystal!

35 comments:

Comrade Blade said...

Or you could freighter like the pros and use a webbing alt that makes you effectively immune to bump tackles...

Gevlon said...

But not immune to a noobship with a warp disruptor. It sits on the gate, srams the freighter that can't warp and by the time the gateguns finish it, the bumper arrives.

Anonymous said...

But not immune to a noobship with a warp disruptor. It sits on the gate, srams the freighter that can't warp and by the time the gateguns finish it, the bumper arrives.

The noobship would be concorded within seconds... the freighter would be prewebbed by a friendly and ready to warp.. once the first catalyst goes down to concord the freighter pilot has plenty of time to warp to station or the next gate while the ganker comes back..

Hyperdunking is pretty cool..but it still requires coordination to work effectively - a single ganker really can't do what you are suggesting unless the freighter pilot is monumentally stupid.

Anonymous said...

Or you wait until some enterprising player comes up with a freighter escort service that lets a logi fly with the freighter repping its tank.

Sure, it will drive up prices a bit as the costs for that will be included in the prices of transported goods, but we're all space rich anyway.

Anonymous said...

This is my favorite:

"Players are also reminded that if someone is criminally flagged, they are fair game to be attacked in self-defense."

That's awesome when you're in your TOTALLY UNARMED freighter.

What, so EVERY FREIGHTER needs to have friends with guns come along for the ride? In EVERY system they fly in? Gankers don't have that problem... they only need to bring the guns when they actually do a gank.

Anonymous said...

"After meeting with members of the game design and customer support teams and discussing this in depth, we have come to the consensus that due to the fact no rules are being broken and any ship that is involved in a criminal act is being destroyed by CONCORD as intended, that this tactic is simply an unintended but legitimate use of new game mechanics, and is not in breach of the rules."

Holy crap. Are these people morons? This completely obviates the GCC mechanic.

Sure, the SHIP is destroyed... but GCC is against the player, so THEY can't just get another ship and get right in there.

Unless, of course... they're a ganker with a sack of ships in a support ship somewhere.

maxim said...

30 torpedoes is still a lot. This means 30 return trips for a single ganker. Surely, if a freighter pilot has any friends at all, they'd be able to come to a rescue in that timespan?

Being able to mitigate this kind of transaction cost is the whole point of being social.

Anonymous said...

there was a GM-post:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2535377#post2535377

persistent bumping after someone made the effort to move to another location is not allowed.

So if i get bumped once it is ok, if i try to move my freighter or try to get into warp, and get bumped and bumped again it is not allowed.


So I'm a bit confused where the problem is. To get killed with catalysts (one after one) there should be enoubh time to realign and warp off.

Anonymous said...

> What, so EVERY FREIGHTER needs to have friends with guns come along for the ride?

"I expect people to get an escort."
--CCP Greyscale, 2014-10-02

Anonymous said...

@maxim
"30 torpedoes is still a lot. This means 30 return trips for a single ganker. Surely, if a freighter pilot has any friends at all, they'd be able to come to a rescue in that timespan?"

Once a freighter has been bumped it's near impossible to un-bump it, not matter how many times goons and code (one and the same) claim otherwise. Once bumped, you're pretty much done. The only thing that's likely to save you is them getting bored and leaving, or downtime. If you had friends turn up, they can't really do much. They won't be able to prevent all of the damage the catalyst does, logistics could help but you'd need like a zillion of them, or you could attempt to gank the bumper which will usually cost a fair amount and often fail because you're taking randoms and putting them up against professional gankers. Even the anti-ganking community spent more than 2 hours trying to defend a gank target once, only to still fail because there's no way to stop them, only to increase the amount of ships they have to put towards it.

maxim said...

@Anon
Lots of words, not enough mechanical explanation.

Are you saying that it literally takes longer for a freighter to realign to gate than for a single bumper to come back and re-bump him, which makes it impossible for a freighter to escape no matter how well-protected it is?

Anonymous said...

Freighters could just be flown like in science fiction movies: In dangerous areas (and high sec is dangerous, too), there is an escort.And where Concord supplies DPS, the escorts should specialise in e-war.

FarosWarrior said...

I love it how everyone here is yelling about freighter pilots needing escort and that that's ridiculous, while hyperdunking can't be reliably done solo unless all the ships, at all locations, are pre-dumped into space. Not to mention the orca/bowhead that's floating empty in space if the ganker does solo hyperdunking... The ganker can get friends/alts, why not the freighter pilot?

Olivier said...

@maxim
Well it depends on the freighter fit, if you're not anti tanked, it takes ages to align, yeah.
But I think that mainly, hyperdunking (what a moronic name Btw) works mainly on afk freighters.

Finally, it IS a clever use of the rules, but nothing prevents ccp from changing concord. Maybe their hints at npc podding?

Anonymous said...

occator ist mwd+cloak trick capabble. it helps a bit. only the dedicated will decloak and bump.
I like the MJD, only good in highsec because they need to dedicate scram to prevent the jump.

Manserk said...

If you look up the DST on zkillboard

https://zkillboard.com/group/380/

I didn't find any gank in high sec (only wardec)

They also cost 7 time less than freighters.

Anonymous said...

"Are you saying that it literally takes longer for a freighter to realign to gate than for a single bumper to come back and re-bump him, which makes it impossible for a freighter to escape no matter how well-protected it is?"
Yes. Once a bumper is bumping, the only way to get that freighter out is to try to gank the bumper which is pretty difficult to do even if your a decent ganker as it's designed to move so fast. No amount of webbing will make your freighter warp, because it needs to be aligned, even if it's thrown into the warp range of it's speed.

And while yes, both sides need friends, a ganker only needs a few friends to become basically unstoppable, while a freighter who has been bumped will need a vast number of extremely proficient players. There was a story a while back of a whole team of anti-gankers - people who try to prevent ganks every day and are very trained in doing so - spending a few hours trying to save a freighter being ganked, and still it died to just a handful of gankers reshipping.

Avoiding a freighter gank is relatively straight forward. Don't fly freighters, fly fast tanked transports and keep your cargo value down as Gevlon has rightly pointed out. Stopping or fighting against a freighter gank once the bumping has begun is insanely difficult, far more difficult than the gank itself.

Manserk said...

I put together a better fit for the job

[Occator, tank]

Damage Control II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Power Diagnostic System II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II

Medium Micro Jump Drive
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

Improved Cloaking Device II
[Empty High slot]

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II


Advantages : don't need implants, have a cloak, and about 35 cpu left for an extra module of your choice, 138k ehp total, faster align time.

drawback : lost the 10mn afterburner

Bitter said...

@FarosWarrior
"The ganker can get friends/alts, why not the freighter pilot?"

Human (egger?) nature. It's relatively easy to get mates in on a gank session -- guaranteed action over a set time frame. Calling in people for Escort duty is much harder, because they have to be ready the whole trip yet the chance of anything happening any one jump is very low.

Anonymous said...

another way, make bumping an act of agression.
If you bump the same ship within 5min, the bumped person will get a pop up where he can decide if this was an agression.
if he clicks yes, the bumper becomes suspect. (May be you can also set the difference in speed between the 2 parties also as a criteria, gently touching won't do anything)

So flying non-afk becomes less dangerous, while afk-ing is still risky.

Basil said...

I'm pretty new. Can someone explain how the GCC relates to the ability to reship? What if the ganker had 30 catas on grid and didn't warp to their shuttle?

Anonymous said...

Basil - if you board a ship while you have GCC, concord warps to you and blows up that ship. If the ganker boards another catalyst on the same grid, concord is already there and instakills them. By going to a shuttle / rookie ship on a different grid, the concord group follows them away from the grid with the freighter. One player = one concord spawn, for performance reasons.

So if you see someone hyperdunking you can interfere easily by performing a criminal act yourself to spawn another concord group, then boarding all his catas in a row to get them all blown up. It's a gank that a bystander can easily prevent.

Anonymous said...

Not only that you can seriously annoy the ganker by spawning concord yourself, there's another option:

The ganker must eject ships from a close by bowhead or something. Those ships are fair game for ANYBODY to jump in. So as long as you have another character, you can easily mess up any Hyperdunking in the making.

And if you don't have another character: Sorry but in my opinion a team of 4 characters/players should always be able to win against a single character/player. Ship size and cost shouldn't matter that much.

Thomas Chasteaux said...

It's not so simple for any bystander to prevent.

The Machariel bumps the freighter off the gate grid (250+) so that it now exists on another grid and is no longer visible to anyone else.

This allows a co-conspirator to drop 8+ catalysts next to the freighter, again out of sight, and with little risk of being stolen.

The solo ganker can now, at his leisure, and without interference, gank the freighter repeatedly, while the Machariel bumper keeps the freighter in the "unseen" dark alley grid.

This is all happening out of sight of the gate traffic.

You either need to witness it, and follow to prevent, or be much more suspicious of FR pilots in local, and check DScan and probe the freighter down.

Anonymous said...

Comrade Blade:

In high sec? We have this thing called "war decs" that force pilots of Freighters into NPC corps. Webbing them is a hostile act.

Well, we know what the Goons are going to be doing for the "Burn Jita" event this year.

Imagine... 5 man teams. One Machariel for bumping, one Bowhead for Gankalyst transport, and 3 Gankalyst pilots. And I'm just throwing in a couple extra Gankalyst pilots in there for the redundancy of it.

You could gank all day, non stop.

Anonymous said...

I think if I flew my ship into a freighter, at any appreciable speed, my ship would be destroyed and the freighter wouldn't even notice.

It'd be like driving my 14' runabout into an oil tanker. No way in hell a fishing boat is going to divert the Exxon Valdez...

C'mon CCP - common sense?

Deth Delkanara said...

It all goes to show how really messed up the 2 necessary mechanics really are. One, criminal acts should not be easily bought back by some retarded tag mechanic. Sec status and criminal status should mean a lot more and last a lot longer. After all, risk vs reward is the null sec mantra right? Then there is bumping in the first place. The idea you can ram a million ton object into another million ton object at 1000's of meters per second and neither take damge is flatly insane. I can shoot you with a 125mm rail gun and your shields will take damage no matter how big you are, hit you with a battleship and nothing happens. This is bullshit to the highest degree.

I can hear the cries now of "but it's mechanics" and all the other justifications but it all comes down to this. Hypocrites want to rules lawyer the game mechanics and CCP staff all so they can be such heroes by shooting unarmed targets for fun. You know what we call people that shoot others for fun? Sociopaths.

In a real society, if you went about doing these kinds of things you would be a criminal, stay a criminal and sooner or later you would be labeled shoot on sight everywhere and teams of specialists would be paid to actively track you down. These guys aren't pirates of the Barbary Coast, Caribbean pirates raiding the Spanish Main, they are whiny thug scum hiding behind ridiculous game mechanics, incessant whining and rules lawyering. The vast majority of accounts live in high sec and CCP needs to wise up cause running those people off isn't a good business decision. Yes, you can be the pirate in Eve, but real pirates knew they had death sentences if they got caught, didn't get pardoned every 30 minutes because they turned in the scalp of some other pirate and they didn't walk the streets of London or Madrid shopping for new ships.

daniel said...

because it's annoying...

eve isn't a simulation but an imitation of space. if it is plausible or not that ships do not get destroyed when bumbing into each other shouldn't be a concern - or do you complain in counterstrike that one shouldn't be able to take several shots into the leg and still be able to jump around?

also, for gank avoidance, read feyd's blog on how to avoid ganks.

AnEvenonEntity said...

So, I read this, and an article by Rixx javix today and it got me thinking.

perhaps there is a balanced way to let the freighter escape, not without risk or damage, and not something that cant be countered, but something that wrecks the non flagged bump ship without turning bumping into an all out aggressive act.

Right now we can only warp to something when we know where it is. that makes sense lore wise there has to be some pretty complex math and planning involved in doing it safely, but Imagine your warp drive having a little red button on it, covered in a plastic shield so you cant accidentally hit it, with big letters "DO NOT PRESS" If you hit it you get an uncontrolled warp in whatever direction you are pointing. say 4 AU on average. This causes heat build up in every rack. and messes with your ability to properly fly point to point so you land at least 10 km off of any warpable point when you try. also you come out of warp at twice (or so) your max velocity. and the button is dead. cant be used again for some cooldown (maybe tie this into some of the current warp skills)

This is totally unfair to anyone who is after any ship. they can just flee. so have a warp disruptor still stop this action. (and make it either immune to the benefits of WCS or WCS make the after affects worse, again trade off) Anywhere outside of a HS gank this shouldn't change almost anything. But now to hold you either the bumper has to go criminal or you need multiple disruptor toons (to keep the disruption up when one gets concorded)

AnEvenonEntity said...

@Deth Delkanara

Have you ever read the lore for eve? sure we are as players not all sociopaths, but capsulers sure as [redacted] are. We fly around as space demigods piloting ships full of crew, and blowing up the ships of others, sure the capsuler may survive in their pod (unless that gets popped) But if you ever blew up another ship you have in the EVE world killed 10's (at least) and more likely hundreds, thousands, or millions of unknown, unseen npc's

Also to reach that definition of sociopath in the real world you have to do things in the real world. We are not as a group sociopaths because while we will make virtual things go boom many/most/damn near all of us wouldn't consider doing that outside of a game (every society/group/culture has outliers that do not hold to social norms, is it possible that there are true sociopaths playing eve? yep, but they are the exception not the rule IE there are sociopaths in society, eve is a subset of society and will have them, but not in a number outside statistical variance)

The argument you just made is the EXACT same one that people who think call of duity, counter strike, the GTA franchise etc. CAUSE violence in schools etc.

Anonymous said...

@Deth Delkanara
> One, criminal acts should not be easily bought back by some retarded tag mechanic. Sec status and criminal status should mean a lot more and last a lot longer.

Dedicated gankers don't buy tags, they use multiple alts. One or two "clean" like the bumper or transport characters who stay in NPC corps and never commit a crime. One or more shooters that stay at -10 forever and don't care.

Possibly -10 alts should have a harder life than they do now. For example, if Empire NPC factions started denying docking privileges...

> Then there is bumping in the first place.

Mostly agreed. Bumping is a dumb mechanic that is responsible for as many exploits as pretty much everything else combined.

Anonymous said...

The part that really stuns me is the fact that you have to execute 2 really blatant exploits in order to do "Hyperdunking."

The first, "Combat bumping" when you ram another ship with the express intent to gain combat advantage. This exploit really can't be dealt with with game mechanics due to the collision system. CCP has to provide customer support to arbitrate this. It would probably be cheaper to just fix the collision mechanics... but hey, that's CCP's choice. Choices have consequences, huh?

The second is the gaming of CONCORD by drawing them off grid with the use of the shuttle. The design intent is clear, CONCORD delays X seconds, then shows up and destroys all with criminal flags. For server performance reasons, only one CONCORD crew per perp, so they leave to deal with the shuttle, then forget about the original crime scene. The risk is the X second delay, by forcing a delay reset, you exploit the mechanic.

To dismiss these as "non exploits" simply to make space more dangerous is just bad design.

99smite said...

Well, another proof of CCP trolling their playerbase.
How to counter hyperdunking easily? with an alt, who has gallente destroyer 1. he accompanies the freighter and commits acriminal act on grid when the gank starts...
he then needs only to board the catas to get ganked again by concord.... Ofc this also can easily be avoided, if the ganker is using an orca with drones, or a third pilot who watches over "the safety" of the gank...

Nohrgg said...

If ships damaged each other in eve based on mass/speed calculations, whats to stop enterprising griefers from using badgers and stabbers to repeatedly suicide into you? Bumps and ganks at the same time.

Anonymous said...

How about the following Mastodon fit:
[Mastodon, hi sec shield buffer]

Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

Large Shield Extender II
Large F-S9 Regolith Compact Shield Extender
Large F-S9 Regolith Compact Shield Extender
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

This gives me 144k EHP.
Signature radius is kinda high (255), would that be a problem?