Greedy Goblin

Wednesday, July 29, 2009

Heavy frostweave bandage & Co

Heavy frostweave bandage costs 30s on my server. The frostweave cloth costs 43s. 2 cloths needed to craft 1 bandage.

Why would anyone craft these things when the profit rate is -64%?

Because they get a stupid achievement. There are other items crafted, gathered, grinded for achievements, tradeskill-ups and other, non-market purposes.

What's the point of saying the obvious?

Because it let you get items cheap and prevents you lose profit due to crafting such items. I've never ever crafted a single heavy frostweave bandage. I just buy them. I've never crafted a single frostweave bag, the No1 leveling stuff for tailors, usually sold 20-30% below crafting price. Many people did and did not understand why they have no profit.

Even more mock me in letters, not understanding why does such things exist. This is why. You don't have to like those who craft such things. You can call them idiots if you want to. But they are here to stay. They will keep on crafting their unprofitable stuff, selling them below material price. You can't do anything about it. But you can use it for your own (opportunity cost) profit.

I have frostweave bags, I have inscription bags, I have bandages for less than material price. Thank you people who craft without thinking!


There is a worse reason for selling before material cost: the guy farms the materials himself, so it's free.


So before you would craft anything, check if there is profit in the crafting. Otherwise just sell the materials and buy the item from the AH.

29 comments:

Darraxus said...

I was amazed when I got my inscription bags for like 5 gold each. A nice steal if I do say so,

Vredesbyrd said...

What a coincidence - this is exactly what was running through my head when I was checking the AH this morning!

Keeva said...

I've had a few friends ask if I would make bags for them if they bought the raw materials and handed them to me.

I steer them straight to the AH instead, to buy the bags ready-made.

I believe that some people will never grasp the concept that if you pick up the materials yourself while killing mobs, those materials are not really "free". Turning those materials into a bag doesn't make it a "free" bag. Selling it for 40g under the cost of the raw materials is not "free" money. (although some people DO understand, but choose to do this anyway)

I won't complain though - plenty of cheap bags for my alts and my banks!

Azzur said...

A lot of people don't understand the concept of opportunity cost.

Shy said...

Hmm...there are simply people out there who have a different idea behind the word having fun.

They are the ones having fun getting those achievements, and at that point they had useless bandages that you bought for money from them.

Seems like a winwin to me. You're happy because you got to play your number game and think that you got a good deal, and they're happy because they sold those useless bandages for more than they would've been able to sell it to the vendor.

Rambus said...

Actually, on my server, these bandages are seen frequently on the "vendor" auctioneer search, meaning they are listed for less than the vendor price. And unlike the usual greens/raw mats on that list, no one competes with me for them.

chaoskas said...

I have two tailors and my wife is a tailor. So we *swim* in frostweave bags because they sell at 1/3 of the material price.

Maybe I could get some items cheaper than the materials but I love to see "created by 'own charakter'" on these items. Yes, this is not very goblinish but it helps to level all the professions to the max. ;)

I am curious when you show how to make money as a JC. It used to be a great moneymaker but now nearly all blue gems sell for ~10g (they used to be 80g ...) and raw gems hardly sell (sitting at ~30g a piece, not counting the forrest emerald which is around 3g but theese cuts sell for 1g or less ^^).

Mel said...

I was supprised somewhat to find the sweet spot to be netherweave bags not even the imbued ones kust the regular old 16 slotters, i post 20 of them and most if not all sell, and the cool thing to see is they usually sell in groups of 4 or more :)

I use YAH to grab all the netherweave below my price point then i can make bags like they are going out of style...

But Frostweavebags always below that price point of any profit. even the Glacial bag wouldnt be worth it, cheaper to buy/craft then the Giagantic bag, but not a profitable item.

Anonymous said...

@chaoskas

To make money as a jewelcrafter you should wait until 3.1 and then make epic gems.

There is a lull in the market right now while people try to dump their stock of rare gems.

Carra said...

If you are levelling your tradeskills you want to do so with minimal losses. If I were levelling my tradeskill and I can sell those bags for (cost - 20%) then that's still better then having to delete them and getting zero return on your investment. Levelling a tradeskill with a loss might still be the most cost/time efficient way to level your tradeskill (crafting bags goes a lot faster then crafting those rare items). Besides all that, see it as an investment. Pay 1000g to level your tradeskill. And from that time on you're making profit by selling high level items!

It's incredible to see how many people think that items are "free" if they farm them. Try to explain to them that time = gold... And a lot of people will farm that item they need. Even if they could be farming an item that gives them double the gold an hour. They just don't see that farming that second item for an hour gives them the gold to get their item + profit.

Gavin said...

I sometimes (not often but from time to time) farm for items rather than buy them from the auction house, even though I could probably make more gold buying them and doing something else. But sometimes I just want to spend my play time killing things, and killing things that drop useful items is even better.

Lerbic said...

I'm one of the people that farms all the mats I need for things I want crafting...in fact, I cant remember the last time I bought any mats from the AH

I am definitely aware that I could farm gold (either by killing stuff or playing the AH) and get the items faster in terms of hours played...

I choose to farm however becuase I actually enjoy the satisfaction of saying that I have farmed everything myself, been truly independent...thats where the fun is for me....

I know that my tradeskills have been maxed with ONLY my own effort, and yes, I sell excess crafted stuff perhaps at lower than material cost (but always above vendor cost/disenchant value)

Its the way i play the game, I'm not remotely interested in making gold, I dont need it, I can afford everything I need without having to worry

Yaseen titi said...

Reminds me of a story:

I once wanted to sell mass quantities of runic mana potions, I noticed that some people undercut me with prices lower than the mat prices(I count the extra potions that I get on average from potion mastery), apparently when melee classes get mana potions from quest rewards or drops they just want to sell them for whatever price, this is one of the few cases where I buy the competition because they have a limited supply.

Lee said...

I think (and hope) that Gevlon's comments ae intended towards those with the goal of making money. it's a game, and people will have different goals. Some want to play the money game, some want to Raid/PvP and want enough money to support that, some want to explore and expeience the crafting skills without care for profit, and some just want to knock out achievements.

The trick is understanding that there are these different motivations in game regardless of whether or not you share them and being able to take advantage of them to further accomplishing your own goals (and further enjoyment of the game). Considering Gevlon's goal was solely the money side (and recently raiding), it's safe to assume his advice and commentary are only aimed towards those trying to make profit in game. From that perspective, it's always silly to craft/do anything that is losing you potential money ( or losing money outright).

I just got the bandage achievement myself. It was easy, I could afford it, and while I find the profit game interesting and educational... it's not my primary goal in game. No offense when Gevlon states it's stupid... as it certainly would be to him since it's not a goal of his. Much like when I would complain about the silliness of raiding since I find little difference between wiping on a boss repeatedly in Nxx and wiping on a boss in Ulduar outside of the skill of the company I keep (I feel no moe or less satisfaction wiping repeatedly in order to conquer a boss just because it is a tier higher).

Gevlon's comments are a lot more sensible and less confrontational when you realize that, if you are not into the money making aspect of the game, none of his comments are directed towards you (unless you are an M&S :P )

Lee said...

"apparently when melee classes get mana potions from quest rewards or drops they just want to sell them for whatever price, this is one of the few cases where I buy the competition because they have a limited supply."

You see similar in the Glyph Market for different reasons. I try to keep a running inventory of anywhere from 15-20 each of the profitable glyphs. Their min value to me is 1.6-2 gold because the going rate of Inks is 1.5 gold each at a minimum. For the ones consuming two inks the value is obviously higher. Often enough someone will try to undercut everyone such that they are selling their glyph at lower than the cost fo me to produce it and I'll snatch them all up so long as I don;t go over a stack.

In those cases it results in an increased profit for myself, but I still get tells from the sellers on occaission who think they've pulled one over on me (or that I am trying to control the market). I can sell today, I can sell tomorrow, I can wait a week, I may even not be able to sell them and just hold them for guildies... but it was still cheaper to get there's than to make my own. People seem to look at the sale as the profit instead of the difference between the sale price and cost. it's like some ho talk about making 1000 gold every time they check their mailbox when what they eally meant was "receiving" 1000 gold from their mailbox. You could but 2000 gold worth of stff fro relisting, see 1000 gold in your mailbox when they were sold... and certainly not have an arguement that you wee some sort of tycoon :P

Gibbiex said...

I have a routine going where I send greens/cloth to my enchanter/tailor, and they make the frostweave bag for me. I'll definitely have to think about this again, but when I visited the issue the bags were about the price of the mats. Problem is right now many of the mats are not moving and the market is dropping (i sell dust and other goods on a regular basis). I wouldn't be surprised to see the bags to be finally profitable.

Gems..very tricky. I am very hesitant to buy raw gems now, but I notice that the red gems vary quite a bit, lots of fluctuation there. Also the PVP gems are still selling for a decent profit. People are still doing arena and PVP while waiting on the new raid content. My advice is just look to see what you can make, look to see if their is profit, then to buy one or two raw gems and cut it. But yeah, gem market is tricky. It's somewhat absurd given that each pattern takes 3 days to get, that people would then go around and price the cut gems for less than the raw gem prices. You would be better off mining ore then dumping the raw gems that going through the trouble of learning the recipes.

Diorinix said...

Only comment I would like to make re: Frostweave Bags is that on some servers (ie: mine Vek'Nilash-US), Frostweave Bags sell for moderate profit, while the Netherweave Bags sell for so little it can sometimes be a loss. Crafting cost on this server for FW Bag is ~65-75g, and NW Bags are ~7-8g cost. Sales on FW Bags fluctuate between 80g-100g, and NW only 8-10g. I avoid weekend postings for my FW Bags and only list while the market price is in the 90s.

Anonymous said...

"There is a worse reason for selling before material cost: the guy farms the materials himself, so it's free."

Normally I agree with the statement that farming mats isn't free. But there is one caveat I think Gevlon over looks. This is a game. And it really depends on how you got the mats on whether or not its free. Right now I'm finishing up outland's loremaster. So I pretty much feel that any netherweve bags I get are pure profit.

Now if I had no reason to go to outland then more than likely I wouldn't farm it unless no one was selling mats for what I wanted to make. for instance: 20 netherweave is usually 30%-50% less than 1 netherweave bag. In that case I'd rather joust and buy the netherweave.

This is a game its supposed to be fun. A smart person will figure that in while buying stuff. personally I have lots of alts they can make most of the suff I use a lot of and they can gather everything. I generally only make something to sell or something I want that no one is selling. ie: galacial bags (yes I'm exalted with the sons of hodir thanks to turn ins) no one sells these on my server.

Fortgnox said...

Ah silly achievements. Are they really achievements if just you buy them? I'm closing in on my "Stocking Up" achievement (the 500 Heavy Frostweave Bandages one) and I've never bought a single piece of Frostweave Cloth. Sure, I could have had it months ago, but would it have been such an achievement then? I've used most of them as well, vendored a couple of stacks when my bags were just looking too full, but then I've enough money from carpet-bombing gems that it wouldn't be worth my time auctioning them. Thank you Gevlon for showing The Way!

@Vredesbyrd
Dimmu Borgir FTW

Tonus said...

"It's incredible to see how many people think that items are "free" if they farm them. Try to explain to them that time = gold..."

That is the "bottom line mentality" and I tend to suffer from it myself. Since it's all leisure time, it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking that "it's all wasted time anyway, so what difference does it make?" And yet, you can spend a fraction of that time becoming more efficient and making more money, while still covering your tradeskill needs.

Anonymous said...

I just checked the AH on the realm I play on and frostweave bags cost about 20% more than the total cost of all materials needed. So make sure to actually check before jumping at this "opportunity".

bron said...

so he has never made one frostweave bandage, yet you have bought them, how do you use said bandages without skilling up your first aid?

Anonymous said...

Its the whole supply and demand thing - Pretty much everything Northrend nowerdays has plumeted in price since LK came out (titanium ore spike not included).
Most of my profit is gleaned from BC things - NW bags, dust, Greater Planar essences.

Ellifain @ Khaz'goroth

Hagu said...

Yes, making bandages for an achievement is not economic.

But making an item in order to level up is just a cost of doing business for that profession and shouldn't be lumped in with the achievements (spending gold for something they not you enjoy) and the plain bad business. You give your trainer 10g for a pattern and you turn 50g of leather into a 6g Endless Pocket; it's just a cost.


And once you have made the item, then you need to sell it for the most you can, regardless of the "sunk cost" it took to make it.

And yes the "I farmed the mats so I somehow think that I have no cost" mentality is mind-boggling dumb.

Does anyone have a link.list of the items that you should expect to get below cost: Pack of Endless pockets, Gnomish knife, FW bags, the bar of any prospectable/smeltable-to-level-mining ore etc.

@ Fortknox "Are they really achievements if just you buy them?" - yes. they are the same achievements whether you got them quickly and efficiently or whether you went to extra trouble.

Azzur said...

My objection to Gevlon's philosophy lies in the fact that anything that is not his way is wrong and M&S. For instance, the Bandage achievement or vanity mounts. Also, for my bags, I like the 'Made by Azzur' tag on the them, rather than some random 'Made by lolrestololdruid'.

That being said, Gevlon does have a point. Examples:
1) People farming Eternal Shadow to make an item and then complaining that farming sucks.
2) People with the Traveller's mount with unenchanted gear and then complaining that so-and-so raid leader kicked them.
3) People farming their own mats coz its free and then claiming 'you can't make money off the AH'.
etc.

If you can accept the cost or consequences of ur actions then it's totally fine. But don't start qqing about your stupidity.

Tonus said...

I think that is Gevlon's point. If you want to have lots and lots of gold and want to manage it wisely, then it's dumb to buy something that you do not need, especially if it is very expensive. I think that he is criticizing the people who complain that they have no gold, after spending thousands of gold to buy several flying mounts or a tundra mammoth.

If the flying mounts are your goal, by all means buy them. But if you then turn around and ask "what is the secret to having lots of gold?" Don't be upset when the answer is "stop spending money on flying mounts!"

Thunderhorns said...

LOL. I said this same thing a few posts ago. Yeah. It's exactly true and it's all you can do if some fool is selling before mat price because he farms his own mats. In the real world such a businessman would be gone and gone quick, in WoW he's just stupid. Which as Gevlon says, can benefit the smart players.

Thunderhorns said...

@Lerbic,

Why do you come to this blog if you're not interested in coin and obtain everything without using the AH or gold?

I guess you must love Gevlon's mad commentary.

Thomas said...

I often buy Netherweave and Frostweave bandages for vendoring :)