Greedy Goblin

Wednesday, September 28, 2016

why no help ffs reported

I'm struggling with League of Legends. Not because of personal "skill", I already have positive kill/death rate (at least until the enemy starts to mop up the map due to team having half as much kills as deaths), which would mean victory if my teammates would be similar. But they are very much not. Let me share this wonderful game result:

As you can see, Jax at top and Xerath at mid and me in jungle did well and killed the enemies in top/bottom. Miss Fortune and Morgana on the other hand fed like crazy. However this wasn't the reason of our utter defeat. Nor that Morgana was played one of the most toxic players I've ever seen, starting whining over spell selection pre-game and continuing ever after. The target was mostly Miss Fortune, despite that player wasn't that bad as the one behind Morgana. Their feed pattern was: Morgana pushing forward, Miss Fortune closely followed without even being told and soon they were at the enemy tower. Where they died when the enemy jungler or middle shown up or simply because they walked into the tower range. Then they (mostly Morgana) whined for the other one sucking and the rest of us not helping.

Before continuing, let me explain how "ganking" at the bottom lane works in League of Legends:
By pushing forward, the green team opened up for being encircled by the red jungler. In the meantime the green jungler can't get near the red bottom champions without being shot by the tower. This is an intentional "catchup" mechanism. If you are strong and attack, you are vulnerable to ganks, if you are pushed back to your tower, you are not. So - despite their constant whining - I couldn't help them. Sure, the tower is not all-mighty and can be attacked, typically when the enemy is outnumbering or seriously outleveling the defenders. Our moron specimen were neither so died and died and died, despite everyone spammed them to stay on their own tower.

However the reason of our defeat wasn't simply their feeding (dying repeatedly, giving lot of XP and gold to the killers). The enemy top fed just as hard and their jungler was also "unlucky". So - assuming this pattern continued - the team would continue to have even amount of kills and more NPC kills (that's the main source of gold and XP). But - despite being personally skilled - our top and mid were social people who wanted to help the "teammates in need". Which mean going to the bottom lane, idling in the forest to catch the jungler or circling hopelessly outside of the tower range. By doing so, they abandoned their own lanes, sealing our fate. When their mid and top, fed by minions came down, it wasn't much of a battle.

While usually not in so black-and-white fashion, this is what I always see: one or two morons feed like hell, refuse to play defensively and soon the rest of the team abandons his own job to help them. But wait, unless I claim some conspiracy to place feeders to my team, I must assume that the enemy team also has feeders, so I should win assuming I'm better than the enemy jungler (I usually am). Instead, I'm losing a lot.

The reason of my chain-defeats aren't the morons feeding, but the socials helping and me not. By letting the two idiots and the two socials face 5 enemies, I sealed the game. If I'd join them, we would have an early teamfight phase with coinflip result instead of a sure defeat. This is pretty common, often providing me the title phrase. Morons being morons, running into trouble and social teammates are compelled to help. At this point the optimal choice is to join them and hope that we overcome them instead of playing smart and getting lot of gold killing minions while the morons and socials wipe.

This can mean a very nasty Nash-equilibrium, where the optimal move is to act like the socials and advance only by personal combat skill instead of brain. This is something I don't want to do. I see two strategic options:
  1. Keep jungling (which I like a lot) and make a copy-paste text "don't help the moron feeders, feed harder in your own lane". If it works, than the team will be overall better than the enemy in late-game.
  2. If the socials don't listen (go figure), I have to abandon jungling and queue as ADC/top. If I'm ADC, I can guarantee that 2 players won't feed (myself and my support) by sitting under our tower. If I'm top, I can guarantee that 1 player won't feed (myself). The jungler position is the least feeding one, so it's the best to leave to a random.

PS: sometimes nothing helps. I was top, the enemy top was also in his lane, the rest were playing 4v4:


Marek Zaborowski said...

Gevlon, You should consider playing "solo" champions. As far as I see, You use Nune and Warwick, both need help of their teammates to fully utilize their kit. Which is of course problematic for situation like that, cause You dont achieve full potential of Your hero, despite doing everything fine.

Solo champions can often get fed and snowball easly, single-handely winning the game. It wont work on higher-elo, where people co-operate, but its self-resolving. If You get to the point where You dont get complete morons in team, You no longer need to play solo champions.

Good solo champs are: Master Yi, Tryndamere, Fiora, Irelia, Jax, to name few. The rule of thumb is that they got gap-closing abillities, decant burst and can heal themselves. Even when You cant win game by Yourself, they often do a thing called "split-pushing". It means leaving team and going for their towers. So they either have split their team and send someone to stop You (and often 1 person is not enough to stop solo champion, simply because he got duelist kit while they dont) or goes 5v4 Your team, but still losening objectives.

This way, You can minimize reliance on Your team and get a good ratio that should let You get to Plat/High Gold.

Anonymous said...

The last game is clearly due to the game being League of Scriptarina.

This is why I abandoned rift completely and only played aram for the last 2 years. if we get Scriptarina is aram, it ends very fast, since that champion even without scripts is broken beyond belief (free flash, no cost, sometimes no cooldown, what could go wrong). this is how you play that stupid shit. Everyone's grandma is invited to be a super skilled katarina player unless they carry a serious disability of flat face which cannot press buttons.

Hanura H'arasch said...

"Nor that Morgana was played one of the most toxic players I've ever seen,"

I still don't get why Riot doesn't simply ban/silence those people. They have buttons to report players, but they don't seem be doing a thing. You can be toxic game after game but absolutely nothing happens.

As for strategy, I agree that jungling should best be left for the M&S. It's the hardest thing to mess up, especially if the other lanes are doing fine. I'd also suggest mid, because a tank without a decent carry is usually worse of than the other way around.

Anonymous said...

Do you still think there's a plan to solve this that doesn't require being social and joining a group?

Anonymous said...

jungle and top are usually the best roles to carry. adc is the worst (it's easier as an ap support). the problem is that adc always needs the team. when you're alone, then you're dead. adc = you need a frontline and/or peel.

it you just want elo, play tryndamere and never leave your lane until you split-pushed into their nexus.

or you play something like zac or sej in jungle. aoe-cc/tank/engage mix.

Samus said...

Okay, a couple of notes here.

First, I don't recommend ADC to you because it is the most mechanically demanding position (mid being second most). If you intend to find a strategy that allows you to raise up higher in rank than your mechanical skill level would normally allow, ADC is not going to work (neither will mid). I am sure you have also already seen that support has far less impact on the game than any other position (an awesome support is better than a bad support, but won't help your team nearly as much as an awesome mid). This leaves jungle and top as the positions you should be playing.

In the jungle, I think Warwick is fine if you want to gank a lot (I am sure you have noticed his ult means a kill pretty much every time). Never ever leave your jungle as Warwick if your ult isn't up (which means yes, don't ever gank a single time before level 6). In your screenshot, the enemy jungler crushed you in farm 122 vs 54, that is a huge problem. Your item order is also a problem. Build Stalker's Blade, not Tracker's Knife, you need the Chilling Smite. Go Stalker's Blade --> boots --> Bloodrazor --> Boots of Swiftness. This will help your farm a lot. If the enemy has a lot of auto-attackers (as in your screenshot, actually), build Ninja Tabi instead. You might also consider Shyvanna if you want a champion who is a bit stronger on their own and more farm oriented, but Shyvanna has no CC so her ganks aren't great.

For top, I do agree with Marek that Nunu is a bad choice. However, I don't think his listed alternatives are for you. Master Yi, Tryndamere, Fiora, etc. are all strong champions who can snowball out of control, so why do they all have such bad winrates? Because they are very mechanically demanding champions, and morons who aren't skilled enough try to play them. Don't be one of those morons. Like I said, if you plan on finding some strategy to gain higher ranks, you should eventually expect the other players in your games will be more mechanically skilled than you.

The champions I recommend for you in top lane are Singed and Nasus. Singed is easy to play, so you can focus on strategy, not mechanics and skillshots. He also has the highest average minion kills of all top laners because he can just turn on his poison and run through the minions. When teamfighting starts, look at the scoreboard. If the enemy ADC is ahead, go after him and try to flip him into your team. If your ADC is ahead, stand by him and flip away any enemies that get near him.

Nasus is also easy to play, and only really cares about stacking his Q. Each time he kills a minion using his Q, he gains 3 stacks (6 for cannon). The stacks increase the damage of his Q. Make a CDR rune page, try to get 100-150 stacks by 10 minutes, 300-400 stacks by 20 minutes. At 25-30 minutes with 500+ stacks and a Trinity Force, your Q will hit for over 1k. And it works on towers. Late game Nasus has been known to 2-shot towers and has often been called "raid boss Nasus" in teamfights. The best part for you is this will happen because you are smart and farm properly, not because you out-skill your opponents.

maxim said...

The desire to "rely on brain not on skill" strikes me as desire to win the game without actually playing it.

Also, isn't the whole point of low-elo matches to build skill that you can bring to high-elo matches? Bypassing "rely-on-skill-not-brain" checks through clever strategy at that level is kind of shooting yourself in the foot long-term.

Basically, the right to play on a strategic level is something you need to earn by having and displaying skill fundamentals.

Gevlon said...

@Marek: I love Nunu because it's practically unkillable. People get mad, tower dive to kill me and die. If 2 comes, I pop barrier (people always spam "get flash" but I pick barrier) and that's a double kill, since I Q a minion and get HP back and the tower finishes them. But I will try Singed as Samus suggested.

@Anon: you mean my teammates were bots?

@Hanura: because they are paying customers. So only openly racist crap is banned. Those who constantly call everyone noobs are not.

@Anon: there is always a plan, I just didn't find it yet.

@Anon: my plan as ADC is simply not dying and maybe scoring a kill or two in laning phase.

@Samus: Ashe didn't look mechanically demanding, but I get your point. Yes, support is completely at the mercy of the team. I want to stick to Warwick, but people constantly demand more ganks. I prefer tank builds because tank is always missing in teamfigts and being a tank is the least mechanically demanding (practically "walk into enemy pack and die while the ADC and mid Aces them). I will however try to play Singed instead of Nunu, especially as people bitch about Nunu not being top (I never died top).

Aand I'm not going to play now, since I got a 30 mins penalty for quitting champion selection twice after getting support role twice despite picking top/jungle.

Theodora Dunkelmauer said...

Here is what worked for me last season :

Before mid gold, assume your teamates might not know what they are doing, so your best bet would be to play a hard carry at a game defining position. ( By hard carry, I don't only mean damage, I mean a character that can wreck a whole enemy team by itself. )

Annie mid worked for me. Actually, there is 2 game defining positions : mid and jungle.

Jungle for obvious reason, as about mid, some theory crafting :

The caster usually go mid because his damage is spell dependent, so level relient. So they live on a solo lane to be max level as fast as possible. That mean you are around 2 level above bot lane on the laning phase, and you get your ult way way earlier.

A key point here is you are mid, the lane that make it easy for you to gank both bot and top. And that's what you are supposed to do. You push the minions a bit, and as soon as you see an opening on another lane, you go wrack it. Sure you might loose your tower to minion past a point, but you will allow your team to win 2 lanes, and feed yourself hard.

2 important points about ganking from mid:
* Mid gold, even if you loose your tower, if you did it right, you won the gold and psychological wars. The enemy bot is most likely raging after getting ganked 4 or 5 times.
* Unless you are a lot weaker than him, the enemy mid won't be able to follow you until you show on the other lane. If he does, next time, stop in a bush and punish him.

Of course, once you reach mid gold, there is a lot more wards on the map, so it won't work anymore. At this point, what decide the game isn't the best player, but the weakest one. The worst that can happen to you is to have someone forced into playing at a position they don't know, or worst, dislike by the matchmaking. So at this point, I would advice playing the less popular positions so you are sure to have at least a decently competent player there. ( Was support and jungle last season, and worked really nicely to me. )

Also : check for the champion tier list, and pick some that are currently strong.

Samus said...

"I want to stick to Warwick, but people constantly demand more ganks."

You know better than to listen to other morons. This is a common mistake for new junglers, they fall behind on farm (as you did) because their team keeps calling for ganks. Warwick is nice for newer junglers because the cooldown on his ult teaches you roughly how often you should gank, and how much time you should spend farming.

"I prefer tank builds"

Sorry, I forgot to mention, Warwick goes straight tank after the item order I listed. You build the jungle item first to farm your jungle faster, which gets you more gold and xp, and the rest of your items faster. I am often the highest level in the game when I jungle.

One more small tip: you might try turning "smartcasting" on. It will instantly use the ability on whatever your mouse is over instead of waiting for you to click. Once you get used to it, you don't have to click as much (which is good for low mechanics players).

Zyrus said...

Ah, you like building and playing tank, you'll need a change on game-plan, tanks are dependant on the team to close the game and win. You should play something more carry-like, if you still like tanky, then play something like Hecarim, Shyvana, Skarner, Darius or go full carry, like Master Yi, Jax, Tryndamere.

Do remember, tanky falls off in late game, and in low division games go on to late game, you'll want damage late game. You don't need to tank people if you kill them quick enough.

Research up on split pushing, you can easily split push to platinum probably, the idea is basically become strong enough that you can 1v1 anyone, then just push a lane continually, they're forced to send 2 people to stop you, you back off, your team as 4 is free to do something anywhere else since 4vs3, or they send 1, you kill them, and keep pushing, or they don't send anyone and you just keep pushing. All the champions I mentioned are specially good at this.

Anonymous said...

Both Samus and Marek gave you a good advice. If you want to win by yourself or at least not to rely on your teammates' performance, you should pick a champion that does on his own just fine. Also don't forget that the role of jungler is helping your teammates so it might not be for you after all.
You should really play TOP position with a tankish champion such as suggested Singed or perhaps Renekton/Darius. It is basically 1v1 for the first 15 minutes and then you either push or help your team tanking.
Finally, don't forget that ~20 creeps equal one kill, so not dying and just sitting under tower will lose your game easilly.

Marek Zaborowski said...

I also have to point out something. A lot of people says "dont play X champ, cause he need skill". The thing is, there is 2 kind of skills. Skill in doing the right decisions fast and skill to doing A LOT of decisions fast in other words Action Per Minute.

I believe Gevlon lacks APM, but doing the right decisions comes from understanding game and whats going on. Should I ult now, or save it for later, what kind of combos my character posses, etc. Its all comes from so-called "prep-time" and I think Gevlon dosent have any problems here.

This is why I wont advise Gevlon champion like Lee Sin, who needs A LOT of APM to fully execute his combos (ward-jumping) but I think many snowbally champions dosent need that much APM to dominate. F.e Trundle can absolutely stomp enemy Team, if he can get ahead and they cant coordinate against him, while in maintain dosent require that much APM. (A-move into enemy, drop zone, drop icycle, use BOTRK/Chomp when enemy in range). He is a tank too, so I geuss its fits.

Also, the problem of snowballing in Lol is... Its not the fault that snowballing character becomes too much of a problem. Its the problem, that most players dont want to adjust their strategy to that fact and keep doing what they were doing, which leads to more fed. F.e AP midlaners with Zed as enemy, not building Zhonya.

Anonymous said...

Some tips.
1. To win game, you need to influence teammates gameplay on positive way.
2. Fight the weakest spot of the enemy. If you have choice, help to win a lane, its more useful then getting losing lane to equal.
3. Burst champs give most benefits early mid game. They can kill without getting damage back and need to get recall. What translates directly to gold and exp and map objectves.
4. Sustain win on lategame. If you are not 1-shottable, you are basicly unkillable. Its balanced on hard earlygame. So use it.
5. Ganking Bot is most profitable lane, your kills benefit up to 3 people. What makes usually top the safest lane.