Greedy Goblin

Wednesday, December 23, 2015

How to deal with doxxers?

Reddit is raging again on the statements of a Goon hacker/doxxer Digi. The summary is simple: "doxxing is usually legal, and I'll keep doing it". It's a threat to silence those who'd dare to fight Goons.

First thing first: he is right. Doxxing is usually legal, as uses information that you carelessly placed on some obscure but unprotected part of the internet. While its obscurity protects it from ordinary Joe, someone with skills and dedication can dig it up and legally post them.

Secondly: his strategy works. That reddit thread is full of moral outrage. Show me a man who talks about how immoral something is and I show someone with impotent rage. I can sense their fear even trough the monitor. They - like all socials - try to avert the attack by claiming that his actions will invoke bad karma (in the real sense) and that people will hate him for it. Literally, the top comment says "people think you are a piece of shit regardless of how legal the data is". Well, I don't think that Digi or his boss give a damn if reddit or even "the silent majority" will hate them. They'll still be making money from EVE. Digi would surely not pick this "job" if he'd have moral issues.

Thirdly: I wish I knew how many of the moral outrage guys watched the fappening pictures. The illegally obtained ones that caused Ms Lawrence serious fear for her career, a very unpleasant chat with her dad and probably issues in her romantic life. Did you care for all these, Mr Righteous?

However her unfortunate issue gives us the solution: revealing personal information, even the worst kind (nude pictures) isn't the end of the World. Her career continued. Her father didn't disown her. While obviously bitter about men, she holds up and in time she'll find someone who isn't an asshole. The same thing applies to you. If Digi would have all the power you attribute him, he wouldn't be posting, he would be using it. He knows that it's your fear that stops you from fighting his boss, not his actual abilities. Seriously! What harm would come to you if the other EVE nerds would know your name and address?!

Sure, I don't mean to post it yourself as much annoyance could come from it. I prefer to hide my identity, despite I already informed my boss after the monument attack that one day a bunch of angry nerds will swarm his e-mail with lies written in Google Translate Hungarian. I also hired a lawyer who helped me to meet the local police and informed them about the practice of SWATing, so they expect such stunt and they know that on my address there isn't anyone with criminal record. I also have a licensed weapon in case Goons looking "to be edgy and act like us" would pay me a visit. Yet, I'd prefer to not having to deal with these, so I keep my information hidden. But the point is that if I didn't do good job and Digi digs them out, it won't destroy me, just give me some nuisance.

Stop being so scared redditors! Goons are threatening you exactly because they have nothing else left. Their PvP-ers, FCs left them. While the real life treaties protect them from PL and RMT-ing "Russian" empires, they are hopeless if you stop being so scared and gather a gang to stomp on them. Or just get into a Rifter with a T1 cloak and place it in Deklein while you're at work. You can even name your ships "Doxx this!". Goons lost all ability to fight and all that keep them in their space is fear from their "magic abilities", like Digi doxxing.

Hey Digi! Doxx me and see if it stops me from financing the slaughter of the eyeballs of your master!

PS: SMA and more SMA
PS2: there won't be posts during the Christmas. Maybe some between the holidays, but no promises.


Zax said...

" Seriously! What harm would come to you if the other EVE nerds would know your name and address?!"

"I prefer to hide my identity"

So, eve nerds shouldnt be worried about anyone knowing their name and address, but you are hiding yours? Are you different from Eve nerds?

Stabs said...

Those seem absurd lengths to have to go to to play a video game when you could simply just play a different game or play Eve in a way that doesn't threaten Goons.

I think the doxxing thing and follow-on events like swatting or even the simple 4am pizza deliveries are just appalling. And the best reason to play Eve.

I really think that despite the occasional grr goon reddit comment I'm not a threat to Goons which is why I play Eve.

And I really think if playing was likely to have real world consequences like remdick.jpg I'd stop playing and play something else.

From a non-social utility maximiser perspective the value of Eve is its value as a hobby not whether other people are impressed I stood up to Goons to the point where they tried to damage my career.

Fortunately this only seems to happen to absolutely key individuals like Remedial, Mittens, Digi and Blawrf (perhaps).

Anonymous said...

Wow, this is a really good post. I totally forgot about the whole fappening and how the internet, especially reddit was in ecstasis about it.

Anonymous said...

do CSM candidates have to submit their real identity before or after they win?
is Doxxing keeping decent candidates away?

Gevlon said...

@Zax: harm =/= nuissance. I hope that I won't be doxxed, just like I hope there won't be fog on the streets. But if is, oh well!

@Stabs: absurd length to a leader. Do you think that Digi has the capacity to doxx every line member who pop Goons?

@Anon: If you submit your data, that's not doxxing. It is reasonable to expect elected representatives to have real names.

Anonymous said...

Good post, but I suspect his response would be that he's no hypocrite if he's willing to be doxxed, too. He just has less to lose than his targets -- perhaps a sign of his miserableness.

jeremiah Hittos said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Stabs said...

I can only guess what Digi knows.

Here's one possible scenario. Routine data collection could give:

All character names, IP and email addresses from people who have registered for

Same for any alliance in which the GIA has infiltrated the IT department.

IP addresses when people hop on comms for a chat, for an event, for a NPSI roam.

This is enough to investigate further where a subject is a person of interest. Blogs, forum posts, reddit, facebook etc. This data can be used with other data to narrow down a person's identity although it's a fair amount of work. For example, you've revealed that you're Hungarian, that you have a boss, a girlfriend etc. If they can further find what you do or where you went to school (possibly revealed in a Wow post made years before you started Eve) they might be able to narrow it down to a specific person.

On a forum I used to post on, one poster claimed he was always careful to post anonymously and was confident no one could identify him from his online presence. 10 minutes later he received a PM with his own photo in. Someone figured out who he was from casual mentions of having gone to school with a certain person and supporting a certain football team, and a couple of other data points.

All in all I suspect it's likely that Eve doxxers can identify most of us with the data they have if they put in the work. That's without counting the possibility of keyloggers or trojans.

I do think though that people, even Goons, very rarely exploit these things or go to much effort. They did go after Remedial, an early Goon traitor. I suspect that despite the retraction they collected dirt on Blawrf and threatened him with it. But generally you seem to be safe from them unless you're unwise enough to become a Goon director. They're most scared of their own people.

They probably know who you are, Gevlon, but don't see it as advantageous to swat you or order pizza to be delivered at 3am or whatever.

Gevlon said...

@Stabs: which is the point: Doxxing is only scary to those who don't think about what can be done with their data: not much. Doxxing me would only lead to more support to me and more hate to them. It would annoy me, but wouldn't harm me. So with everyone else.

Except the pedophiles, they have much to fear that their internet presence goes online. Thinking about that, when I was in TEST, Richter Enderas always wanted to talk about nude teen pics with me despite I always declined. Back then I just considered him a weirdo. Now I believe he wanted a chatlog which could make me look a pedophile. Too bad for him that I'm not and not at all interested in that stuff.

Anonymous said...

I still don't understand why everyone keeps saying what Digi and co do is legal but it seems widely acknowledged that they use email addresses provided for web services to conduct their 'research'. This is NOT legal anywhere in Europe where data protection laws state that personal data (and email addresses are personal data) must only be used for the purposes it is collected for and that these purposes must be spelled out in writing when the personal data is handed over. If IP addresses are linked to an individual user then these too count as personal data.

Tsed said...

"I still don't understand why everyone keeps saying what Digi and co do is legal ... This is NOT legal anywhere in Europe"

Probably because European law isn't particularly relevant to Digi and his sources?

Anonymous said...

"hacker parties". ohh the irony. these acadamics people that barley could be called script kiddies pulling of alnighters over club mate in the hopes of beeing a "IT security" guy that fuzzes 0days for a living.

you don't need keyloggers or trojans.
"registered" implies password. ever used a password twice? Or are you creative with your password construction? does that pattern apply to other sites aswell?
A visit to the thirdparty site under the control of a bad guy (Digi and Co.: TMC, Goonfleet, SA) gives him Browser and OS info including supported plugins. A footprint that most likley will have a vulnerability. He talkes about cached info so they do something shadey.
Same principal of phishing aplies here, if you login you will get owned.

posix compliant said...

I can't believe how little sense of perspective these ridiculous "pro" eve players have. I also think that it's time to leave them in the sandbox and go play somewhere else. Just because you like the same toys doesn't mean it's worth sitting next to the kid that eats bugs and hurts other kids.

Anonymous said...

Goons now even lose carriers and blingy ratting ships to random nerds roaming with spectre fleet:

And then they send mails that shall prove how rich they are. So everybody knows that "they don't care":

Anonymous said...

You realise that you just admitted "I played a computer game and ended up having to hire a lawyer and keep a gun handy".

Like you were running from Scientology or the Mafia or something?

Do you ever step back and ask yourself WTF you are doing with your life?

Gevlon said...

The lawyer, the gun and warning the boss are not just for EVE. They protect from random local criminals. Wherever you engage people, you'll engage with the criminal element within that group. You must take necessary precautions, but it shouldn't stop you from engaging people.

Also, your question is completely inappropriate. The correct one is "WTF the people who commit crimes and doxx for a video game are doing?". While looking for trouble (like going to Fanfest after Falcon let the criminals back), is a bad idea, your normal lifestyle can't be organized around fear from crime.

Your approach is "women shouldn't be outside after dark because of rapists, especially not while wearing anything more revealing than a nikab". The proper one is "people should be prepared for the attack of a robber or rapist while outside after dark". I am prepared for criminal Goons and won't be intimidated by Digi or the monument vandals or those who protected them from justice.

dobablo said...

Doxxing is an admission that they aren't good enough to beat you. If you get doxed, where it is a badge of honour and boast about it. "Digi is so bad he couldn't even beat me when I went /afk and my cat sat on the keyboard"

Eve Is Hard (You Tube) said...

You realise these people are just nerd right?

You don't need a gun to protect yourself.

Gevlon said...

@Eve is hard: 4 of them found it a good idea to vandalize a monument and try to frame it on me. Since they got a slap on the wrist from CCP and were protected from criminal charges, I'm pretty sure they are fancy doing something larger.

Dumb person + alcohol + buddies = violent crime.

Zax said...

"Dumb person + alcohol + buddies = violent crime."

Yes, because graffiti is the first step to violent crime?

You are seeing reds under the bed.

Yes, there are scary people on the internet....look at all the people online who get death threats and doxxed, who have much broader reach than you.

You say you havent had any threats specifically, but you keep a gun just in case.

That is paranoia.

"While looking for trouble (like going to Fanfest after Falcon let the criminals back), is a bad idea, your normal lifestyle can't be organized around fear from crime."

Why would that be looking for trouble?
Xenuria gets through fanfest unscathed, as do goons, PL, gankers, miners, mission runners, and the eve players who have had actual death threats sent to their houses. What makes you different?

Gevlon said...

@Zax: because crime exists. As I said, the preparation isn't specifically for Goons, or EVE players, but for "people". The murder rate in the USA is 3.8/year/100K person. In Russia it's 9.0. In the rest of Europe, around 2.

If there are 20K Imperium EVE players, (mostly from these regions), then every year they kill a person or two. They aren't killers because of playing in Imperium, it's just that there is no study that Imperium membership decrease crime from base demographics and 20K mixture of Americans, Russians and Europeans kill a guy per year. In 95% of the murders the killer and the victim knew each other, so the more people know you, the more likely one of them kills you. I'm merely known by more people than you, so I'm more likely be targeted. Same for all crimes. With (in)fame comes this danger, so it's better to be prepared and not look for trouble.

Also, you don't know if everyone gets through Fanfest unscathed. You know that there is no news of violent crime. Which can mean no violent crime. Or that the victim was too embarrassed/drunk to speak up. Or - being lost in a foreign country - he was insecure to do it and CCP advised him to "not make a bad publicity" and accept financial reparation instead. You can't say it's not what they do.

About the weapon in the house. I do NOT expect a "Don Alexandro sends Luca Brasi to my house" scene. I do expect a "bunch of Goons are in Hungary for a festival or batchelor party and after enough consumation of recreational substances they feel it's a good idea to prank me and things go out of hand" scene.

Anonymous said...

"If there are 20K Imperium EVE players, (mostly from these regions), then every year they kill a person or two."
That's not how stats work. First off the murders/years is number of people killed/year, not number of killers per year. Secondly there's people who commit multiple murders decreasing the chances an individual is a murderer. Thirdly there's the type of people that murder for different reasons, like gang related crime. The chances of someone from the game being a murderer at all is minimal. The chances that when they choose to murder someone the person the y choose is you is even smaller. Zax is right, it's just paranoia.

Gevlon said...

Because EVE players would never join a gang. Actually, the most criminal demographics is young males who are overrepresented among MMO players.

It is indeed a low chance that their murder targets will be in-game contacts. That's why we don't see "gamers killed gamers" articles. If they kill someone from the opposing gang or beat their girlfriend to death, the justice system can't care less about their hobby.

Also considering that they already comitted a crime against me (tried to frame vandalism overseas on me which would give me a criminal record and loss of my passport if worked), I wouldn't call it paranoia.

Anonymous said...

No idea why you don't see "gamers kill gamers" articles, there's always "a guy went mad, killed someone, everyone blames his love for shooters" thingies. But I remember quite a few of stories that happened not so far of me (e.g. with people who were personally known by a friend of a friend of my friend).

One I remember was about a guy who murdered his flame, coming to her house (so coming to someone else's house is a valid scenario indeed; although the game wasn't involved much in that matter, only as a place where they met each other). The other one was about members of warring clans who met at "fanfest" (rather a small meeting to drink together), started arguing and "things went out of hand".

Well, these events are kinda rare indeed, but actually neither of these people were even a little famous.

- Lithrenn (formerly the PuG, Agamaggan)

Amarr-Zon said...

@Zax "Yes, because graffiti is the first step to violent crime"

It was not quite "just" a graffito.

You can't foresee what a bunch of dumb drunken idiots think is "funny" or "appropriate".