Greedy Goblin

Friday, October 9, 2015

I won't hire PL/PH (aka Travis was at least funny)

I've been pressed by commenters and even the CEO of Pandemic Horde to hire PL instead of supporting MoA (read them from the bottom up):

Well, Travis was at least funny. Also, there must be a template somewhere on the internet for "Scam/Beg Gevlon" letters, because they are all the same. (I'll post some when I have nothing better to do)

They claimed PL did good this month and indeed they outperformed MoA in September. The community consensus is that PL is more powerful than MoA and would be able to do more damage to Goons, especially in the super field. While I doubt they'd dare to go all-out on the Imperium once again after B-R, even rumors of their presence would force every single Imperium capital to dock outside of SRPed ops pinged by certified capital FCs. That would seriously decrease the ability of Goons to rat in carriers as the usual "cyno other ratters to the attacked carrier" would end up pretty badly. It doesn't have to happen often, the chance is enough to make other ratters ignore the "HAPL TACLDE" and let the attacked ratter die to a handful of PH bombers. Especially after rumors that the initially tackled carrier paid ransom and lived, while his "bros" who jumped to save him died.

Yet I'm not planning to hire PL and I keep supporting MoA instead. It has two reasons. The first is simple numbers. In the last 12 months MoA did 2.4T and PL did 1.0 (PH did 0.2). That's a serious difference. It shows that PL is either unable or unwilling to fight the Imperium. Sure, it could change, but people usually don't change (see appendix).

To understand the more important reason, we must understand the source of the might of the Evil: diplomacy. When someone is pwned, he starts to think of revenge. It's not just about pixel spaceships and IHUBs, it's about pride and community reputation. Even completely hopeless carebears swear vengenance to the amusement of readers. While they are obviously unable to hit back, they try to create the illusion that they can. The Evil One is on the other hand sneaky. If you pwn his minions and ridicule them (and him) on forums and blogs, he plays along ("WELP GODS APPEASED WE CAN OFFICIALLY WIN THIS SOVWAR NOW") and then reaches out to you with an offer. He offers you ISK (BL after carrier fleet trapped), moons (OTEC), regions (BoTLord) or publicity (Xenuria), whatever your little social heart desires. Yes, even to me. He isn't here to win a game or prove a point, he is here to make real money from ads, PLEX affiliate links and other methods, so he gladly gives you pixel or social stuff if he can keep the only thing truly matters in this life.

This is why Goons are unbeaten. Not ships and pilots but diplomats. So to defeat them, I must work with people who can't be reached by diplomacy. PL is absolutely not like that. If I'd hire PL and they'd have results, soon they'd get an offer from Goons that I can't match and suddenly they'd realize how much fun to be had in the other end of the galaxy. Sure, the damage is done, but Goons aren't defeated. MoA on the other hand pretty well fit to the profile (see appendix). Not only because their leaders are players (want to win a game, instead of paying mortgage from it) but because their pilots choose this life knowing they'll have no towers, moons and ratting space, just fights. Gen Eve has no actual power over them, he can't tell "disobey and I lock you away from riches", they follow him because he is a good shepherd who prepares a table before them in the presence of their enemies. Would he defect, he'd be abandoned for a better leader. MoA is made of individual pilots who want to watch Goonies burn therefore immune to Goon diplomacy.

Do they have the power to destroy the Imperium of Evil? Not yet, but they gain more and more every month, as displayed by their increasing kill count. SoonTM they'll be strong enough to cleanse Evil from Deklein:

Appendix: a list that I find absolutely necessary from an anti-Imperium alliance. Anyone not doing these will surely fail:
  • Full membership support for the cause. I mean announce that you wish to turn your alliance against the Imperium of Evil for then next 1-2 years and give time for corps and individuals to leave on good terms if they want something else, especially "good fights", because you won't get any. Goons "blueball or blob" or fail, so your EVE play for the next 1-2 years will be running from blobs, entosising systems while Goons are docked and killing dumb ratters and idiots jumped to beacons. Any member not willingly accepting this will make drama, quit or stop logging in. You can't force your members to do it, they must make the choice for themselves.
  • Financial independence, aka your members must make ISK on out-of-alliance alts and the alliance must live without SRP or on donations. If you had a moon or ratting space, you won't have it long as the minions of Evil will descend upon you in a thousand Megathrons.
  • Offering blue status to everyone who is not Imperium and have significant PvP capacity. It doesn't mean shared fleets or comms or intel or anything, merely not shooting each other. There aren't that many staging systems near Imperial space (4 NPC stations in PB, bordering Lonetrek stations, Venal, Obe, FDZ4-A, bordering Placid stations), so you'll spend more time station-gaming each other than killing Imperium without blue status.
  • Measuring everything by numbers (ISK ratios, structures taken) even when it reflects bad on some of the member groups and pilots. Goons are masters of propaganda, if your members listen to anything but hard numbers, they will soon believe that their quest is futile and their leaders are idiots or even Goon spies. You must teach them to ignore everything not backed by numbers as "Goon lie". This includes banning posting in local anything but Goon killmails and links to statistics. Get in conversation with a Goon and you'll be mad while he's having fun (I learned that the hard way with Arrendis).
  • Full disclosure of everything besides ongoing op info. Goons will spy it out anyway and publish when it make you look bad. By any secrecy besides obvious opsec you only hide information from (future) members and make yourself suspicious.
  • Encouraging and SRP-ing solo and small-gang action. There is no need for a whole fleet to kill some ratters, a few guys acting on their own can make serious mess. Elo Legion is a great example of a group that couldn't do anything without their signature FC.


S Riojas said...

Very good advice, Gevlon. FDZ4-A is a nice gem of an area too.

Lets see if people listen.

Stan vanderVille said...

And this appendix is exactly the reason, why no one will do this.
Just keep in mind, that the majority of players plays for fun. They live in the allies which support their individual "fun" playstyle. Not everyone needs "good fights" everyday. Not everyone wants to "win" eve.
In every null sec area you have the ratter hunters. So, it's like code in highsec. Why should I leave deklein, if it is not better anywhere. Afk ratting is bad in all the space.
Why should someone turn a fun game into something without fun but paid? These situation is usually called a job (ok, my job is paid and fun also :-))
Don't get me wrong, to put everyone with the same mindset into a Super-Moa is not a bad idea to make them stronger. But I don't think there will be so many new kandidates nor will this destroy imperium. Even if you manage to get more ratters killed, say to a critical limit, the alts in WH, High etc will bring in the ISK, I will make more money from selling ships, have more small gang fleets, more ISK, more fun. This will not drive away the normal player. Only the AKF carebaer who has no influence at all.

daniel said...

"Do they have the power to destroy the Imperium of Evil? Not yet, but they gain more and more every month,"

still falling for the assumption of infinite growth.

Gevlon said...

@daniel: I'm not sure they can grow infinitely. I'm sure about two things:
- they grow
- they are bigger than any other
It's not a guarantee that they'll ever grow big enough. But they are clearly the best candidate. If you disagree, please name a better candidate and explain why it's better.

Anonymous said...

The way you describe Moa almost sounds like the original goons of 2006. I'm sure if they ever came back they'd more likely make war on the current goons rather than the remnant of BoB or anyone else.

Anonymous said...

MOA does not SRP small gang or solo action. They MIGHT SRP fleet action??? Maybe?

If they SRP fleet action I have yet to see it. I think GEN EVE cares, but the FCs don't, or they play favorites, either way it is still disappointing.

Personally I am independent and can afford as many ships as I need. But the thought of recruits joining up and not being taken care of has caused a little bit of disillusionment on my part. Why would they stick around?

Anonymous said...

He is not wrong though, with your sunk costs.

What is the evidence that the isk you are throwing at MOA on a monthly basis is having any effect on Goons at all?

It feels good to have lots of goon ships show up on a killboard, so, if that is all you are after, then you are being successful, but after however many months it has been now, what is the trackable effect you are having on Goons?

Gevlon said...

Your desperate trolling is desperate. 2.4T is $30-40K in PLEX. Losing that is totally irrelevant, that's why I have to delete "you are doing nothing" dozen times a day.

Is it a fatal wound? Not yet. But MoA keeps growing, they'll reach the point where it won't worth trying to rat in Goon space.

Anonymous said...

I'm going to redact what I said as anon@14:06. I was wrong and misinformed. After talking to my corpmates I've been set straight.

SRP is not automatic, you have to email your loss mail to the FC... duh!

My apologies to the rest of the team. Won't happen again.

Anonymous said...

"Your desperate trolling is desperate. 2.4T is $30-40K in PLEX. Losing that is totally irrelevant, that's why I have to delete "you are doing nothing" dozen times a day."

$30-$40k in plex out of 40k plus players so your point is mute. This is also $30-$40k in plex that has no relation to the Imperium themselves, those are individual line members. Most if not all of the Imperium membership is growing consistently so the answer is you have had 0 impact on them besides killmails that you pay another alliance to get. Of course you've changed your goalposts so many times most of us now realize you now measure your success based on the amount of killmails alone which nobody in the Imperium cares about.

"Is it a fatal wound? Not yet. But MoA keeps growing, they'll reach the point where it won't worth trying to rat in Goon space."

They are not growing, if anything their numbers have stagnated. They get a spike in membership here and there until they get bored with MOA's restrictions on not flying anything expensive or pods with implants.

Just be honest GG, you are having no impact on the Imperium. Members are not leaving. Your hoping things turn around but the fact of the matter is you've been at this for how long and nothing has changed whatsoever other than the Imperium growing larger and larger. The only reason you continue is your feeble attempt to remain relevant in Eve.

Gevlon said...

Jesus! Member count? Who cares about member count?! BRAVE had 12K before they kicked all the litter and had 1K. What matters are kill count and rat count (approximation of ISK made). Goon kill count is going down, they barely PvP anymore. Their rats are up and that's a problem, but it's mostly CCP giving more anoms.

Anonymous said...

Goon PVP is an over-inflated killboard of freighter ganks. They should get their own team of "anti-gankers" too and shoot their own ships and whore off of Concord. Extra padding!

Look out goons CODE. is catching up with you guys for the number 1 pvp position. :o

Anonymous said...

Goons don't PvP much because there is nobody left to threaten them. The vast bulk of moa kills are ratting ships that are seen as disposable.

Anonymous said...

Gevlon have the cfc/imperium lost any of its influence or power since you started your campaign?

Anonymous said...

You fund MoA which cant be that hard on your wallet with the restrictions you and or the leadership put on them for how/what they fly.

Gevlon said...

I forgot my influence and power meters at home. Please tell their influence score now and 2 years ago.

Anonymous said...

as one of the more active members of moa I can tell you that it simply comes down to one thing in my book. goons are easy and dumb. Their true PVP'ers left a while ago, either from goons or the game. They don't have anymore hardcore pvpers. its just isboxing losers that ccp wont ban or sheeple following an FC. you get a group of 10 of them alone and you can solo them without even trying. And their FC's are morons. Boat being the biggest moron of them all. He runs fleets straight into a wall and gets paid to do it. I don't understand why mittens even keeps him around.

Pim said...

In one screenshot you asked, "Why do they always want Skype?"
It's because voice comm.s make it much easier for them to bypass the victim's sense of reason. They can use their high pressure sales tactics in voice, which do not work in text. Whether it's negging, browbeating, or some of the more subtle / advanced Neuro-linguistic behavioral science techniques, virtually all of it requires voice communication instead of text.

Anonymous said...

PL scum is almost just as bad as Goon scum. You are right in your brilliant reasoning: PL is full of side switchers and bad losers. Make PL lose fight after fight and their fleets diminish heavily or they bring out the cap blob.

I was there in Catch, when pl kept losing vs ze drake blob (2011-2012) with SE fc Tec Entaru (im sorry, im bad in names). I know the core PL from way way GBC back. The only reason why they mailed you was because they could get a good deal out of something they have plan already to do.

My colors are at MOA. I am a MOA pilot. Death to goon scum! And PL! They ruined EVE for sooo long with the blue donut and GreyScaleGate (Dev Technetium Hax) as their prime achievement.

Bob had it right, SirMolle had it right: ...and everyone is laughing in hindsight

Anonymous said...

The problem is your "trackable results" are not actually "results". Sure, they are metrics you can graph, but they are objectively not steering you towards your stated goal of defeating goons.

Hell, there isn't even any credible evidence that it is causing strain on Goon (either the organisation, or the individual) finances.

You can look at kill death, isk value destroyed and *pretend* it matters as much as you like. The actual empirical evidence shows otherwise.

Gevlon said...

It's easy to prove: they don't use that money on anything visible. No bling roams, charity, prizes, thunderdomes, for-fun wars, nothing. So they probably spend it on RMT, so every trillion down is $10K from someone's pocket.

Gobbins said...

Is this exchange supposed to make you look good? You are known as a rich babby with a anti-goon boner, of course people moving up to shoot goons will check to see if they can get some isk on the side at your expense.

Instead of saying "No thanks" and moving on you literally flip your shit when your methods are questioned. Ask yourself this: how comes none of the people moving north wants to stay blu with MoA?

Gevlon said...

No, this exchange suppose to expose a scammer/fail. You didn't offer anything resembling a service.

The reason why people don't keep fighting Goons is in the post. They get a good offer from The Mittani.

Gobbins said...

That's not what I asked.
Why do the people that move north to shoot goons prefer to shoot MoA than blu up with them when MoA asks? Or are you suggesting they all get bribed by gons into keeping MoA neutral?

Gevlon said...

No one moves North to shoot Goons besides MoA/OOS.
Some move North to shoot everybody.
Others are moving North on contract/bribe by Goons.