You probably know that the best PvP-ers of the Lemmings were collected into the corp called "The Red Barons", lead by the Lemming main FC Doc Know. After the Lemming project was closed, they were moved to The Marmite Collective. Despite their small size, they quickly became one of the top killer corps of Marmite. Everyone was happy, until they wasn't:
I'm not worried. Not because Tora Bushido, the leader of Marmite was pretty chill about this drama (his response is the title of the post). Not because the members of his corp joined to kill CFC and not for personal vendetta over "he said she said" (numbers are already dropping). But because I won't be harmed even if he could (he can't) destroy Marmite. Marmite wasn't the first highsec wardeccer, and it's possible that they won't be the last. They might close doors one day. But as long as there are highsec wardeccer pilots, there will be highsec wardeccer corps. They will naturally join into an alliance to share the wardec costs. They will be happy to shoot CFC alliances as they are literally the best targets after the 3 big renter alliances. So I can always make a mutually beneficial deal with "the" highsec wardeccer.
There is no possible way to prevent drama. Social people want to be liked and respected. Stupid words signalling it's not the case drive them maaaad. This is why you shouldn't get invested or attached to any particular one. They can brake down at any moment and turn into raging irrational creatures. The only possible way of cooperating with them is business: you negotiate mutually beneficial terms and you keep your part as long as they are capable of keeping theirs. When the inevitable meltdown happens, you just replace them with ones that function well at the moment.
I honestly hope that my current partners, The Marmite Collective and Mordus Angels will live long and prosper, providing me lot of dead CFC. But I go with open eyes, checking the killboard for prospective alternatives. No social bullshit can ever get into my way.
PS: it seems that drama did not diminish the ability of Marmite to massacre the minions of evil.
I'm not worried. Not because Tora Bushido, the leader of Marmite was pretty chill about this drama (his response is the title of the post). Not because the members of his corp joined to kill CFC and not for personal vendetta over "he said she said" (numbers are already dropping). But because I won't be harmed even if he could (he can't) destroy Marmite. Marmite wasn't the first highsec wardeccer, and it's possible that they won't be the last. They might close doors one day. But as long as there are highsec wardeccer pilots, there will be highsec wardeccer corps. They will naturally join into an alliance to share the wardec costs. They will be happy to shoot CFC alliances as they are literally the best targets after the 3 big renter alliances. So I can always make a mutually beneficial deal with "the" highsec wardeccer.
There is no possible way to prevent drama. Social people want to be liked and respected. Stupid words signalling it's not the case drive them maaaad. This is why you shouldn't get invested or attached to any particular one. They can brake down at any moment and turn into raging irrational creatures. The only possible way of cooperating with them is business: you negotiate mutually beneficial terms and you keep your part as long as they are capable of keeping theirs. When the inevitable meltdown happens, you just replace them with ones that function well at the moment.
I honestly hope that my current partners, The Marmite Collective and Mordus Angels will live long and prosper, providing me lot of dead CFC. But I go with open eyes, checking the killboard for prospective alternatives. No social bullshit can ever get into my way.
PS: it seems that drama did not diminish the ability of Marmite to massacre the minions of evil.
32 comments:
Should one not refrain from drama llamaing oneself if one does not wish to be considered a social?
After all, mounting an ideological crusade against another entity on a purely emotional basis has the hallmarks of a social.
What is the difference between a super rich miner ragefacing after getting gank and vowing to destroy the evil people who ganked him, and you?
I know, I know, you are fighting from a sound logical basis, and not reacting from emotion, hoping for notoriety and eve fame, because that would be social.
Was in a bunch of doc's fleets back in lemmings. He always seemed like good people to me. Something tells me that it was pretty bad whatever happened for him to turn on marmite and want to help goons. I suggest tell tora to make nice with him. Doc could cause a lot of problems to the movement, especially when he has halfway decent backup.
professionalism - cooperating with people you may not like to achieve a mutually beneficial goal.
its why BOTLRD works. until something better comes along.
now I wonder what a better deal for PL would look like?
I suspect the key point was when he said the co ceo was after some of his guys.
Now, I'm not entirely sure of the context because it wasn't explained further, but poaching could well provide some abrasiveness at corp/alliance levels.
Any CEO worth his salt will step up to protect the men and women on his wing, if they were being unfairly targeted as well.
Either would honk me off pretty severely.
@Anonymous: fighting for ideas isn't the same as fighting for personal fame and liking.
@Next: I'm sure whoever talked him was an ass and deserved to be muted on comms. But there is a difference between that and burning everything you built for almost a year.
@Anti: indeed. Goons can work with people they dislike. Then I wonder why do they insist making people who aren't even their competitors hate them.
@Next: maybe he was. Then he deserved to be told to have intimate relations with his mother and muted.
This made me laugh, at you, not him.
All that guy needed was a pad on the back and few words along the line of "you are doing a good and important Job there", but you decided to provoke him even more, being a total asshat about it.
That would have worked if he came with "I am mad at Marmite and *will* leave". He already left, so further cooperation with him was impossible. He was no longer an asset. My best shot was to make him realize that he is a drama queen and make him go away in silence.
Remember, good and evil are subjective. You're a social justice warrior, Gevlon.
@mugg: no. Social justice warriors fight for other peoples right. I merely fight for my own. Goonswarm might win nullsec, and when it happens, I'll lose if I'm not one of them.
I can't be one of them as I'm not on their forums. So I can only win the nullsec game if I force them to reform or make sure they lose.
With an example: fighting for racial equality is being social justice warrior if you are white. If you are black, it's just self-defense.
I don;t think you can be in any nullsec group though. I doubt NC or PL would have you, even brave would be a push. So why are you only attacking goons? Null groups are null groups, they are all the same.
NC and PL have different playstyle. I don't want to be there, I wouldn't fit.
The interesting thing is that I'd be a perfect fit into Goons due to the way of playing:
* not into elite PvP
* make money instead of roaming
* like stratops
* happily gank morons and slackers
So I have to break them up so they can reform into a similar organization, except this space-tribalist "SA or go pet".
That right there that you just listed, that's the traits of the CFC, not the goons. For the goons you have to add:
* mass trolling
* dicking around on SA
* shiptoasting
all 3 things that you don't like. There's no difference whatsoever to being in the "core goons" or being in one of the other goon corps, except the social environment you are in.
I know you like to think they have all this special treatment, but they truly, honestly do not. You are no less a "pet" of the alliance directors when you are in goonwaffe than any other goon corp. Like any other group members are just split up into groups that "fit" together. If you don't like SA, you wouldn't "fit" in the core group, just like if you didn't speak German you wouldn't fit into a German group, or if you didn't like sailing you wouldn't fit into a sailing group.
> "[Goons] happily gank morons and slackers"
Wrong: Goons happily gank all pubbies (defined as 'not Goons'), no matter how well those pubbies play the game as such. Not being ganked by Goons only proves that you're good at not being ganked by Goons - you can still be a M&S at everything else.
(Ok, in all fairness, there is a causality overlap; but it is coincidental.)
@Anonymous: fighting for ideas isn't the same as fighting for personal fame and liking.
Sure, but surely you are fighting for personal fame and liking... "the man who destroyed goons". that is what you want to be remembered in game for. Right?
So I have to break them up so they can reform into a similar organization, except this space-tribalist "SA or go pet".
Utter utter utter crap. That is objectively bullshit Gevlon and you know it. You are now being deliberately intellectually dishonest.
The SA only rule is for Waffe only. You can get into corps within the *lead alliance* without being an SA member. And even if you couldn't, you could get into one of the *major* alliances that form the CFC.
No, you want the "prestige" of being a goon without following *their* rules. That's what it boils down to. Your completely moronic ideology that states "if you are not in waffe you are a second class citizen". This is a provably false and *irrational* position on your part.
So, instead of joining a CFC alliance you decide instead to go on a one man crusade against everything they hold dear and you by your own admission hold dear yourself thereby burning any chance you would have ever had to get into their group.
Nobody to blame but yourself, Gevlon. Nobody to blame but yourself.
@anon: No, I want to be remembered as the one who destroyed morons and slackers in EVE. Goons are just a technical issue.
@next anon: you got me thinking.
The difference between me and you (Gev) is:
I earnt 1-2b mining and POSing, realised that nothing I did mattered to EvE (although in pride I must say that I did for a while manipulate the Jita market for that Gallete moon mineral processed item used to make armour) and lost my purpose AND GAVE UP
You earnt uncountable billions.
You stumbled your way into believing that EvE should be played for a purpose (notice your social progression theorem - and well done on providing a framework for others to think on especially since you framed it provocative enough to make people think about it)
You didnt give up despite admitting you were stuck and purpose-less (see blog post a few months back)
Here you are now in another attempt to derive a purpose in EvE.
Kudos to your perseverance Gev.
Respect; whither you succeed in this new venture or fail.
(same guy)
The Bastion is recruiting!
@Stabs: and what if someone doesn't want to pay stupidity tax? http://greedygoblin.blogspot.hu/2014/07/what-does-tidi-tell-us-about-eve.html
"and what if someone doesn't want to pay stupidity tax?"
They could try not being stupid.
[ 2014.07.23 20:08:07 ] kypp durron > doc know this is your final warning.. if you undock and your not on comms you will be booted no questions!
need I say anymore? no? ok then case closed........
@Lucas: "not being stupid" is the definition of "elite PvP". Is the CFC elite now?
@Anonymous: yes, you need. I'm totally lost about the context. I believe in Marmite everyone needs to be on comms while in space to relay info. Is it what was talked about?
Gev - I invite you to make public both your SA account and GSF alt - your certain brand of autism honestly fits in with the crowd on the something awful forums far more than I think you realise. You are as close as I have seen in a long time to a "true goon"
I gotta admit, I have always found your grr goons sentiment odd.
I've been in a big non-goon CFC alliance for a while now. I've not seen goons given special treatment, we go on fleets together, rat in the same space- no problems whatsoever.
Last month you were deriding alliances that demand you spend your limited time in game in long fleets. -Not in our corp.
You slammed alliances that put down PvE activity. -Not in our corp. (note that someone who feels like ratting vs getting into a fleet from time to time is not the same thing as someone who :refuses all: PvP, we gotta be ready to defend our space if needed)
You're all about sticking it to M&S. -big thing in the CFC. (isn't that what a stupid tax does? We don't have one in our corp BTW and I've never heard anything like that being a thing in the CFC except from your post)
As for being a pet? Who the hell cares? I sure don't feel like a pet. You can't just reduce all that to such simple terms, are YOU a pet IRL because you're not working in the White House (or whatever if you're not in the US) It's silly.
In the CFC I can make enough isk to plex my account and plenty to play with ratting or exploring in null, I haven't been to high in a long time, last time I was there was to enforce the Code a bit)
I can enjoy a great SRP to pay for ship losses.
I can sit and PvE whenever I wish and still just reship and hop into a fleet anytime.
All this grr goons program has done is alienate you from the coalition that would have been a great fit for you.
""not being stupid" is the definition of "elite PvP". Is the CFC elite now?"
That's arguable. I'd say elite PvP has a lot more to it than just nto being stupid, and no the CFC aren't.
But I answered you question. You asked how could a someone join Bastion if they didn't want to pay the stupid tax. The answer is: don't be stupid. The vast majority of members will never pay that tax, just like how the vast majority of the CFC won't be showing up on Marmite's killboard (unless they fly over and point titans that PL are already killing to buff their killboard as usual).
There is nothing wrong with moving your corp out of an alliance if they don't respect what you/your corp is doing. If you let people walk all over you, then they will keep doing it, this is more true in EVE then any other game. The fact that you(goblin) are calling this corp CEO a "butthurt gurlie" for standing up for his corpmates is comical at best, and somewhat disgusting in the context of you trying to somehow shame him for doing what he thinks is best for 'his' guys.
@Lucas: the whole joke was on NOT on the stupid tax. It was on the propaganda "your highsec wars do nothing". Clearly, if Bastion had to install stupid tax to stop people from dying to my wardecs, they are working.
@Anonymous: where are the chatlogs/soundclouds proving that someone was abusive and the alliance leadership sided with him? Sure, no one likes to work in an abusive culture. But one mean guy over the internet isn't that.
"Clearly, if Bastion had to install stupid tax to stop people from dying to my wardecs, they are working."
Many corps and alliances put in "stupid tax". I was in a corp in NC. with an alt that did exactly the same. People get told not to go to hubs and sometimes need an incentive. That doesn't suddenly mean we are all sitting about crying because some idiots are dying in highsec.
I was in a few of docs fleets. We fought outnumberd and we win a Lot of fights. You wouldnt have taken a Single poco without him. Sure you will say Noir. have taken some but be honest they took the pocos far off the battlefield while doc was fighting at the front line with 50 man t3 goon fleet in his back. And you call him a girly? I hope he will come for you and the Station huggers called marmite.
@Anon: flying well and being a drama queen aren't mutually exclusive. I hoped that we can cooperate longer, but he insisted that someone mean over the internet is a reason to ragequit an alliance and start a personal vendetta.
@ last Anonymous - yeah I was in some of those fleets myself. What doc was able to do with a lot of unskilled noobs was nothing short of amazing. He ran lemmings, not tora and it's kinda shit how he is getting a post dedicated to him negatively like this (considering all that he did).
@Anon: it's indeed sad. Do you think I wished think I wanted this?
Read the chatlog: he came to me telling how butthurt he is over words on the internet.
The point of the post is that no matter how awesome skilled a social is, he is still a liability and can break down at any point.
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