Data is unbiased and fair. It tells what happened instead of what you wish to have happened, therefore you can only plan further actions on it. I received all the killboard data from Apr 25-27 from the solar systems Jita, Perimeter, New Caldari, Sobaseki and Ikuchi, the systems where the most GSF kills happened in 2013 Burn Jita. Let's look at the CFC member results:
On the other hand, Burn Jita forces could increase their ISK ratio to 80%, utilizing swarm of T1 catalysts, which is indeed a significant increase. The large amount of small ships meant that the kills were distributed among lot of pilots, even the best one scored only 4B kills. CFC could significantly decrease fails, only a few of them had 500M+ comedy losses: 859M, 558M, 558M, 616M, 636M, 506M, 643M, 531M, 510M, 684M, 1209M. 155 CFC were podded, the average pod value was 15M, big drop from 55M in last year.
The targets didn't get any smarter, many freighters jumped in Jita, the gankers couldn't keep up with them, so we can't hope that they'll ever learn. These are the 500M+ CFC kills: 2842M, 1549M, 1327M, 1682M, 2727M, 2475M, 1357M, 837M, 1379M, 1607M, 2212M, 2200M, 1554M, 2091M, 1557M, 1643M, 1667M, 1252M, 7626M, 2691M, 1327M, 1789M, 2045M, 7751M, 1361M, 1957M, 5000M, 1366M, 1558M, 1603M, 6602M, 1291M, 1616M, 2007M, 2319M, 1335M, 6154M, 3003M, 2364M, 1623M, 1774M, 1649M, 2757M, 6986M, 1560M, 1496M, 1889M, 1372M, 6224M, 7514M, 1273M, 2444M, 1272M, 7712M, 1340M, 558M, 1164M, 2311M, 1332M, 1560M, 1345M, 1573M, 5208M, 2819M, 2540M, 1491M, 1959M, 2475M, 2012M, 985M, 2039M, 1771M, 5481M, 1298M, 572M, 1524M, 3254M, 4446M, 2363M, 2410M, 6224M, 4571M, 6151M, 1125M, 1243M, 1805M, 1306M, 2410M, 7812M, 1412M, 2680M, 6667M, 11040M, 1277M, 1237M, 1689M, 1145M, 1801M, 1306M, 960M, 1265M, 1286M, 1928M, 2048M, 2131M, 1299M, 1391M, 2292M, 1587M, 1774M, 4186M, 6599M, 1764M, 4412M, 2728M, 2155M, 1985M, 2208M, 1372M, 5118M, 3577M, 10026M, 7649M, 2834M, 3209M, 670M, 6500M, 3390M, 2664M, 2455M, 2539M, 616M, 1282M, 3172M, 9127M, 3125M, 4558M, 2161M, 1773M, 6938M, 2045M, 14498M, 2508M, 7600M, 6712M, 2065M, 6587M, 1350M, 1333M, 2407M, 1307M, 5127M, 1964M
Here is the timeline of ISK destroyed by CFC. It's likely that they could operate 2 fleets first day EUTZ prime, first and second day USTZ prime:
The killboards contain 12800 Concorded ships. 315 died alone or in small groups (or rather alone in the same minute unrelated). There were 37 incidents with less than 50 but more than 10 ships concorded together, 60 incidents with 50-74 ships, 56 incidents with 75-99 ships and 22 incidents with 100+ ships getting concorded, with the largest event counting 165. It seems the killboards were pretty good at tracking kills.
What does it say about 2015? Burn Jita will definitely happen, as the costs on the alliance wallets could be kept in check. However I doubt if they can even reach the 2014 results, hence the lack of celebration on CFC side. While the Cata-swarm effectively neutralize any PvP attempt to stop Burn Jita (as no one cares about Catas), their demand for swarm makes even CFC unable to run multiple fleets except for short peak hour periods, limiting their ganking power. The newly discovered troll freighters, the pretty successful neutral reppers and the announced freighter rigging options will make next Burn Jita much harder.
Note: RvB is collapsing, you can see their horrible results in Burn Jita and I also see a very one-sided killboard result against Lemmings and Marmites. A few months ago they even had 50%+ ISK ratio. I don't have their kill data to analyze, but their loss data is very telling (since they mostly kill each other, ones kill is the loss of the other): every month in 2014 is worse than the previous. They probably shouldn't have outed themselves as CFC members and the Morlock-Eloi charts (which got extraordinary blog hits) didn't help them either. I guess they'll soon close doors and move the Morlocks to Miniluv.
PS: The Goon slaves have still some progress to do in the field of pod security.
On the other hand, Burn Jita forces could increase their ISK ratio to 80%, utilizing swarm of T1 catalysts, which is indeed a significant increase. The large amount of small ships meant that the kills were distributed among lot of pilots, even the best one scored only 4B kills. CFC could significantly decrease fails, only a few of them had 500M+ comedy losses: 859M, 558M, 558M, 616M, 636M, 506M, 643M, 531M, 510M, 684M, 1209M. 155 CFC were podded, the average pod value was 15M, big drop from 55M in last year.
The targets didn't get any smarter, many freighters jumped in Jita, the gankers couldn't keep up with them, so we can't hope that they'll ever learn. These are the 500M+ CFC kills: 2842M, 1549M, 1327M, 1682M, 2727M, 2475M, 1357M, 837M, 1379M, 1607M, 2212M, 2200M, 1554M, 2091M, 1557M, 1643M, 1667M, 1252M, 7626M, 2691M, 1327M, 1789M, 2045M, 7751M, 1361M, 1957M, 5000M, 1366M, 1558M, 1603M, 6602M, 1291M, 1616M, 2007M, 2319M, 1335M, 6154M, 3003M, 2364M, 1623M, 1774M, 1649M, 2757M, 6986M, 1560M, 1496M, 1889M, 1372M, 6224M, 7514M, 1273M, 2444M, 1272M, 7712M, 1340M, 558M, 1164M, 2311M, 1332M, 1560M, 1345M, 1573M, 5208M, 2819M, 2540M, 1491M, 1959M, 2475M, 2012M, 985M, 2039M, 1771M, 5481M, 1298M, 572M, 1524M, 3254M, 4446M, 2363M, 2410M, 6224M, 4571M, 6151M, 1125M, 1243M, 1805M, 1306M, 2410M, 7812M, 1412M, 2680M, 6667M, 11040M, 1277M, 1237M, 1689M, 1145M, 1801M, 1306M, 960M, 1265M, 1286M, 1928M, 2048M, 2131M, 1299M, 1391M, 2292M, 1587M, 1774M, 4186M, 6599M, 1764M, 4412M, 2728M, 2155M, 1985M, 2208M, 1372M, 5118M, 3577M, 10026M, 7649M, 2834M, 3209M, 670M, 6500M, 3390M, 2664M, 2455M, 2539M, 616M, 1282M, 3172M, 9127M, 3125M, 4558M, 2161M, 1773M, 6938M, 2045M, 14498M, 2508M, 7600M, 6712M, 2065M, 6587M, 1350M, 1333M, 2407M, 1307M, 5127M, 1964M
Here is the timeline of ISK destroyed by CFC. It's likely that they could operate 2 fleets first day EUTZ prime, first and second day USTZ prime:
The killboards contain 12800 Concorded ships. 315 died alone or in small groups (or rather alone in the same minute unrelated). There were 37 incidents with less than 50 but more than 10 ships concorded together, 60 incidents with 50-74 ships, 56 incidents with 75-99 ships and 22 incidents with 100+ ships getting concorded, with the largest event counting 165. It seems the killboards were pretty good at tracking kills.
What does it say about 2015? Burn Jita will definitely happen, as the costs on the alliance wallets could be kept in check. However I doubt if they can even reach the 2014 results, hence the lack of celebration on CFC side. While the Cata-swarm effectively neutralize any PvP attempt to stop Burn Jita (as no one cares about Catas), their demand for swarm makes even CFC unable to run multiple fleets except for short peak hour periods, limiting their ganking power. The newly discovered troll freighters, the pretty successful neutral reppers and the announced freighter rigging options will make next Burn Jita much harder.
Note: RvB is collapsing, you can see their horrible results in Burn Jita and I also see a very one-sided killboard result against Lemmings and Marmites. A few months ago they even had 50%+ ISK ratio. I don't have their kill data to analyze, but their loss data is very telling (since they mostly kill each other, ones kill is the loss of the other): every month in 2014 is worse than the previous. They probably shouldn't have outed themselves as CFC members and the Morlock-Eloi charts (which got extraordinary blog hits) didn't help them either. I guess they'll soon close doors and move the Morlocks to Miniluv.
PS: The Goon slaves have still some progress to do in the field of pod security.
29 comments:
their demand for swarm makes even CFC unable to run multiple fleets except for short peak hour periods
Except, you know, for how there were at least 2 (that's 'multiple') fleets running pretty much 23.5 hrs/day during BJ3.
What limited visibility to 1 fleet at a time was the GCC, so often, you'd have one group or the other docked up.
As for claiming victory...
Jita burned, our guys had fun. That was the entire point, and it's one you yourself have repeatedly said 'cannot' be a goal because it can't be gauged using your terrible metrics.
BJ3 was extended a day because people wanted to keep going, not to meet any target amount. People wanting to keep going is a measurable metric for 'we're having fun'. But you know, running BJ is a lot harder than just shooting stuff - any leadership position is. So maybe next year, we'll get more people running the fleets.
"Neither side has real reason to celebrate victory"
You still don't get the point that Burn Jita is just about providing a crap load of content and having a crap load of fun blowing stuff up do you ? It's never really mattered if people try to disrupt the ganks, that's always happened and is all part of the challenge.
There is no measure of success or failure in terms of numbers that is particularly valid. Breaking a record is fun but not really the goal.
So, no, nobody in CFC is "celebrating victory" as its an event, that's been planned and executed. It's over now and you are about the only person that is still talking about it. Why is that exactly?
Also, Burn Jita is extended pretty much every year, as people are having so much fun they just want to carry on taking fleets out. Whilst ships last, why not?
Wake up mate, you're not THAT relevant.
"I received all the killboard data from Apr 25-27"
you do realize that the event has been held till 29th downtime?
So judging and analyzing data only to the 27th is like claiming the winner of a soccer match's after the first half.
@Gevlon
First off, where do you get these 240m and 245m values from? They seem to be completely different to all other analysis I've seem, even of last year which was widely analysed. Are you looking at your "de-whored" data, and only for CFC alliances? If so, your data will be WAY off, since half of us use neutral alts designed specifically to take part in Burn Jita. In fact if you just add up the "These are the 500M+ CFC kills" section, you seem to get more than that. Don't worry though, there should be an official summary at some point in the near future, then you can argue with that too.
"The newly discovered troll freighters"
There's no such thing as a troll freighter. Just people who don't realise that throwing away isk to give us kill isn't winning. Profits on freighter sales were up this year which is certainly encouragement to continue next year.
"the pretty successful neutral reppers"
What? What successful neutral reppers? WE killed a LOT of freighters with full reps, because anyone with any experience in ganking can tell you that reps do pretty much nothing. Essentially the calculation just involves adding rep/second to their EHP, which if you do the math adds less on average than an ECM jammer can remove (and even EM jamming is futile in a 0.9).
"the announced freighter rigging options"
These are certainly the biggest worry. The thing is though, this shows that CCP have had to step in to give people a chance, which is pretty much CCP telling us that we win, so I'm OK with it. That said, the preliminary math based on projected stats from rigs will still keep an empty freighter killboard green.
@Lucas: 240 *B*
Troll freighters are a way of rich highsec people to fight back. A troll freighter costs. They turn a 5-10B loss into a 0.3-0.5B loss to highsec and taking away the tears that the Goons are after.
Reppers are successful not in stopping a gank (you can't rep much in 10 seconds). Their job is to rep up the freighter after a failed gank, and there were many.
Freighter rigging has more to do with the fact that those ships had zero customization options.
@Anonymous: the event was extended to force a "record breaking", making the results uncomparable to 2013.
@Gevlon
Yeah, sorry, I meant B. The 500M+ kills you listed alone make over 400B, so how did you reach 240B as a total?
"Troll freighters are a way of rich highsec people to fight back. A troll freighter costs. They turn a 5-10B loss into a 0.3-0.5B loss to highsec and taking away the tears that the Goons are after."
They are still just a way of high sec people throwing isk away, and while there's a certain amount of tear gathering that's not the primary goal. The primary goal is to affect the high sec economic balance, which people throwing isk away and spiking the cost of freighters does anyway. Sure, if every single freighter we ganked was empty, it would be less fun, but there's no way you would even get half of the targets to be "trolls" only.
"Their job is to rep up the freighter after a failed gank, and there were many."
Sure there were, but most of those we picked up on a 2nd sweep, reps or not. The majority of HP for a freighter is in hull and hull reps suck beyond belief. Repping up the shields and armor just means we need a few extra catalysts to burn through that again, which we normally did anyway, since a 2nd gank was normally enough for a standard gank, so it was massively overkilling. The only way to get a freighter free and clear is to get him into warp to a station. Honestly, the guys there with reps were pretty much running the most futile job around, especially when you consider how long a rep cycle is in tidi.
"Freighter rigging has more to do with the fact that those ships had zero customization options."
Sure, but that's been asked for for years without change. I myself have asked for these, specifically to allow people to fit anti-gank as a choice. But lets face it, the reason these are going in is the increase in freighter ganking at a lower cost over recent times. More and more freighters are getting ganked, and Burn Jita, showing how you can be killboard green killing an empty freighter in a 0.9 is a clear motivator for these changes.
"the event was extended to force a "record breaking", making the results uncomparable to 2013."
The event was extended because there were still enough people to fill 2 fleets completely asking for it to continue. As far as I know we'd already broken the previous years record by then. And 2013 was also extended IIRC.
240B *GSF* kills. There are other CFC elements, the sum is 457 and there were also non-CFC gankers.
War is "throwing away ISK". If we would all live together under the rainbow, everyone would have a titan already. CFC is throwing away 150M in Catas and about 50 man-hours for a gank. A troll freighter pilot throws away 400M and 1 man-hour to spoil a gank.
Repping can be done AFK and even TMC accepts http://themittani.com/news/welcome-burn-jita-3 that: "One Rhea was saved by a HERO Coalition OOC logi fleet, surviving 2 catalyst gank fleets, but was finished off by a tornado fleet despite the logistics.", so about 100 man-hours wasted and then expensive tornadoes were forced by reppers. There were many other cases.
No point arguing over "why CCP did it now".
Same TMC article: "Around 0600 EVE time on monday, Burn Jita 3 officially surpassed the records set by Burn Jita 2 for damage."
@Lucas
CCP stated during the Fanfest that rigs were being added to Freighters solely for customization reasons, as they lack anything like that right now.
They actually reducing Freighter HP and cargo to compensate for that - source:
https://twitter.com/mynnna_eve/status/462625099422896130
I don't think that means the Goons have won, at least not in terms of CCP having to step in to stop you. But it does mean that Freighters will probably be vulnerable to future Burn Jita events, since most people never seem to build tanky fits.
@Gevlon
"240B *GSF* kills"
I see, so a completely meaningless value.
"War is "throwing away ISK"."
Not really, it's paying isk to achieve certain objectives or to prevent your enemy achieving them. Burn Jita isn't really war though, it's just to blow off steam and have a bit of fun while shifting the economy a bit. Your troll freighters still accomplish all of that, so if you enjoy doing it, please proceed by all means. Don't expect any dramatic changes due to them though. Every kill still shifts value out of the high sec economy.
Sure, that Rhea kill was delayed by reppers. Pretty much the exception rather than rule though. AFK reppers can't rep all targets at the same time, meaning a large fleet of reppers can delay a single gank until they hit it with alpha, or out DPS the reps.
"Same TMC article: "Around 0600 EVE time on monday, Burn Jita 3 officially surpassed the records set by Burn Jita 2 for damage.""
With BJ2 also being extended, that doesn't mean much, not to mention that was going off of raw KB figures, which were not up to date and had a fair amount of technical issues (0 valued kills for example). When the full official breakdown comes through we'll have a better idea of what went on damage wise. Either way though, it was a load of fun and we made a heap of isk.
@Dunamis
"CCP stated during the Fanfest that rigs were being added to Freighters solely for customization reasons, as they lack anything like that right now."
At no point did they use the word "solely", and speaking to the devs afterwards it was clear the focus was to allow defense to be customised. The addition of hull rigs will also assist with this. The cargo nerf is not a surprise, since they need to keep it at a level that prevents capital ships being transported into high sec, and they've always stated that as an aim. the defense will undoubtedly be rejigged so that a freighters defense choice is more than "just use hull rigs". I imagine 2 will get more focus on shields with 2 being more focused on armor, with hull still being overall stronger. This will allow people to choose to either buffer or resist tank rather than the single choice of hull buffer only that would occur if they jammed it in as it is now.
"I don't think that means the Goons have won, at least not in terms of CCP having to step in to stop you."
Of course not, that was just a jab, but it's certainly clear that right now there's no real defense against ganking. This will add a line of defense mechanically as currently no meta defense has been able to even slow the ganking trend significantly. Now while that doesn't mean that gankers win, it's certainly not a sign of strength for the freighter pilots. It's pretty much freighter welfare to prop them up because they can't fight for themselves.
Don't get me wrong though, freighter fitting choices are very much needed, as freighters have always been weak for choice, but the changes are a bit of a shame too. They will be a passive defense rather than an active defense, meaning that AFK pilots will benefit just as much as an active pilot. I would have preferred an active defense measure to encourage people to defend themselves rather that just grab a set fitting and go.
Just an observation from afar (and could be completly wrong) BJ is an all hands on deck effort and those who don't participate are most likely ridiculed. So BJ is really a festivel where the goon carebears come out to play. It also puts them in the position of saying "I participated". Using your previous graps and charts showing the goon carebear it appears to me that BJ is a way for carebears to pew pew. No doubt in the worst situation possible but there it is.
Burn Jita was extended in both 2012 and 2013. In 2013 it was actually extended all the way to the Thursday downtime (though there weren't many kills in the extra 2 days compared to this year)
Burn Jita 1 had 518B total kills, Burn Jita 2 had 573B. I have no idea where you are getting a 300% increase from.
@Anon
"BJ is an all hands on deck effort and those who don't participate are most likely ridiculed"
It's an "all hands welcome" effort, and nobody is ridiculed for not participating. Some of the CFC alliances actively don't participate as an alliance so if their members want to participate it has to be an out of alliance alt. It's just a way to have a laugh while blowing some stuff up and making a bit of isk.
In regards to RvB, your assumption that one kill equals a loss for the other is incorrect for the month of April. In fact, blues had a slightly higher kill total in April, reds a slight drop on kills, but both sides had larger drops in their losses.
The reason is not a lack of participation, but rather the fact that RvB had their 5th war with EVE Uni during April. For a good week or two, instead of killing each other, they were focused on killing unistas. Given that the kills from both sides still add up to about the same as March, yet the losses are less, the war went well and there was no change in activity level.
You still don't get the point that Burn Jita is just about providing a crap load of content and having a crap load of fun blowing stuff up do you ? It's never really mattered if people try to disrupt the ganks, that's always happened and is all part of the challenge.
So the point of Burn Jita is to sit around and jack off in TiDi accomplishing nothing?
Jesus, the more I read this, the more glad I am that I don't play Eve. The game that I see here sucks. The only "content" comes from dumbasses sitting around doing things that don't matter.
"Jesus, the more I read this, the more glad I am that I don't play Eve. The game that I see here sucks. The only "content" comes from dumbasses sitting around doing things that don't matter."
Lol, because repeatedly running raids in wow accomplishes so much, right? the idea of games is to have fun. Burn Jita is a way of doing that, while still making profit usually while logged on with alts too. I do always love this attitude you seem to see on this blog though, like people having fun is somehow pathetic, but if I were to spend my every logged in moment grinding up a meaningless pile of isk and nothing more, I'm achieving something profound.
How can you say nothing was accomplished? Freighter prices rose, and those selling such ships gained a profit.
A large quanity of material was eliminated from the game, leading to a reduction of available resources. Smaller corporations who had not paid attention lost months or more of profit.
As for your crass comment about accomplishing nothing, have you ever hear of team building? A company takes its staff on a retreat. The company does not produce new code or product during the week, but is it a true loss for the company? Or are the lessons learned, the trust built, the networking between groups created outweighing the slight loss in production?
And who was doing nothing? A major group in game attempted to embargo the largest trade hub. Some rallied in support, some rallied against. You could never accomplish such in WoW, Everquest, or many other popular MMOs. Sure it wasn't perfect, sure both sides have their spins on how they succeeded and the others failed. Yet something did happen and you know what, most sides, even when opposing each other, had fun. I don't think there is much more you could ask for out of a game.
Lol, because repeatedly running raids in wow accomplishes so much, right?
I don't play WoW anymore either, but at least raiding in WoW gets you loot that you can't get any other way. As near as I can tell, playing Eve gets you nothing but boredom and people trying to out-douche each other.
Ooooh, a trade embargo! OMG, that sounds so exciting! Why, it makes me want to go and fire up that copy of The Phantom Menace that I didn't bother to buy!
Seriously, you clowns are actively running people away from Eve just by being yourselves.
"but at least raiding in WoW gets you loot that you can't get any other way."
And what does that loot get you? what have you accomplished? You farm bosses for a chance to get loot so you can farm more bosses for more loot and you just repeat that until they release a new expansion where your loot is deprecated and you start the cycle again. You haven't actually accomplished anything. The aim is to have fun, which hopefully you have and huzzah, the meaning of games is realised.
"As near as I can tell, playing Eve gets you nothing but boredom and people trying to out-douche each other."
Erm, no, it's fun for most of us to play, it's just not the same as other games. Some people don't like it and they like other games instead, and that's fine. I don't come diving into cod servers saying "You're all douches!". In fairness though, you do frequent the blog of someone who doesn't really get EVE, speaking badly of a very social game from the point of view of an asocial. So it's no surprise that you don't understand how we enjoy the game.
@Lucas: there is more in WoW raiding: competition. There are API-supported third party toplists and the gear you can get put you ahead of the "scrubs" of your server. You "won" WoW by a server first kill.
In EVE there are tournaments and B-R like battles with similar fame and acclaim.
However most content in both EVE and WoW are just time sink. Pet collecting and frig PvP comes to my mind.
The problem with EVE is a marketing one. While the pet collector or the kiddie who celebrates the "explore Azshara" achievement is considered a scrub in WoW, in EVE the similar lollers became opinion leaders, making EVE looking worse than WoW. So while EVE is NOT worse, but actually a deeper and more interesting game, I can't blame Phelps, as unfortunately EVE indeed looks from the outside as "gets you nothing but boredom and people trying to out-douche each other"
@Lucas
Re: the rigs/customization; my mistake then. Didn't get to see all of Fanfest, so only remembered what they were saying during the main Keynote.
Personally, I quite like the idea of freighters only have access to rigs without any modules, if simply for the idea that you've specialised so much so that you've even dropped any way of using an active defence through modules. You haul a huge amount of cargo, and that's it.
Rigs still give you that slight customization though, and I don't think they should change that myself, but that's me. I wouldn't be surprised if most people would still AFK haul, even if they had an active defence module/s.
However, I agree - I don't think ganking is every going to go away, nor do I think it should. It adds colour to high sec and keeps us carebears on our toes. :)
@Gevlon
I think the best way to see if Burn Jita '14 was an improvement for Goons over Burn Jita '13 would be by the ISK kills/hour rates.
We already have the 2014 data, but not the 2013 one. Obviously, if we average the daily kills out for the period, we'd be able to see if there was much difference.
Lucas is saying that it was extended to break a record. Goons could extend it for 2 weeks but if their overall averages are still lower than the previous year, then it's a decrease in overall ganking in Burn Jita, no?
I would not say the problem with EVE is marketing, but rather people assuming that an MMO should have a defined state of progression with set quests that produce given results.
EVE is the minecraft of the MMO world. It is up to the player to define what their goal is and to determine the measurement of success. For some, it is running missions to earn rough isk for a pimped out ship. For others, it could be farming nil for officer loot or running faction epic arcs. Yet for others, such as Gevlon (or at least my understanding of his stated goal), it is to teach others about the game and making lasting impressions or improvements in the lives of people both in and out of game. Some, like RvB want to play a version of spaceship Halo/CoD. Some just want to watch it all burn, while others want it to burn, but at the same time bring abused/op mechanics to the forefront to improve the game. Some want to create fun for all, some for a specific group, and some just want to be left alone to mine or shot NPC rats.
And there in lies the beauty and fun of EVE. By not holding your hand, by not saying reach level X, secure epic loot Y, you create an open system that let's the user define their own goals, achievements, and challenges, and that is why EVE remains popular to many people. So until you try the sandbox and carve your own niche, EVE will just seem like a boring game.
Wouldn't surprise me if this post didn't pass the moderation but...
I don't think the concepts of efficiency, "ISK killed vs. ISK lost" or "How many ganks were prevented" have any, any sort of validity when it comes to goons. Neither does the concept of "Morlocks and Eloi" that is mentioned here a lot.
Goons (and by extent a large portion of others that adopted their culture) are an abusive, evil entity that feeds on misery and reaction of others. True to the bees, they're rarely dangerous alone but a swarm of them is not something you'd approach.
And, of course, you could smacktalk them: that they can't fight, must blob, must pick on unarmed miners/freighters/smaller alliances to win. But, let's be honest - those are people that make jew jokes and abuse each other more than you can abuse them in local.
If you complain, no matter how hard you do and how valid your point is, all they see is "lol, look at those dudes taking spaceships so seriously and cry. I'll make sure to get in fleet tomorrow to make them cry more". Any resistance just fuels their will to fight.
As for dumbasses losing things in hisec? Abuse on comms awaits them with open arms, they were dumb enough to lose their crap and are about to suffer the laughter of the swarm. They'll either endure it, get in fleet and kill more pubbies or throw a tantrum and quit.
If they do the latter, if they throw a tantrum it doesn't matter that they are "a goonie". If they're too weak to shrug off a loss and keep fighting, they'll serve the swarm by entertaining it with drama. It's the worst sort of swarm - it's not that if you kill one, a hundred will replace it.
It's that killing one, will entertain the hundred. That is why hisec mercenary groups really won't have an effect on goons - you can't kill a hive by killing off units.
I think the problem is that some people want to assign things like Burn Jita way more meaning and purpose than it really has.
Burn Jita is the equivalent of a Hogger Raid in WoW where a bunch of people create lvl 1 female gnome characters with pink hair and then form a raid to try to kill Hogger. It's cute, pointless but can be a nice bit of fun for the participants.
That's not a problem of marketing, that's a success of marketing. The stats and ladders in EVE mean nothing, it's a social game built on player interaction. There's no win conditions, just a sandbox where you get to do whatever it is you want for whatever reason you want. Fun, space infamy, isk collection, it's all the same and none of it matters to anyone but the person aiming for it. That's just the nature of a sandbox game.
While the pet collector or the kiddie who celebrates the "explore Azshara" achievement is considered a scrub in WoW, in EVE the similar lollers became opinion leaders, making EVE looking worse than WoW.
I think you overstate your position as an 'opinion leader', Gevlon.
Phelps;
Yes, raiding in WoW, or FF, any sandbox MMO is supposed to get you gear that you cannot get any other way - however, if you'll notice, most of them now allow you to get that gear more or less by just waiting until the next tier of raids comes out, then doing daily grinds for tokens.
EVE is the only game where what you do, personally, matters. It makes no difference if you're doing it big or small-time. You get a crappy loot drop and reprocess it. Then you sell the minerals. Someone buys them, because there are no NPC vendors, and puts them to use.
Eventually, your crappy loot drop becomes the bullet that kills someone's titan. Or the titan. Or it gets reprocessed into the Tech II armor hardener that kept the logistics cruiser alive long enough for him to keep other ships alive, turning the tide in a battle like the Lazamo. That turns the tide in a war, and leads to the collapse of the largest single alliance in the game at the time (TEST).
Would all the rest of that have happened exactly the same if that person had bought someone else's minerals? Probably... but maybe not. Maybe they bought from you instead of the next guy, so they paid a little less. So they bought a little more, and the economic impact cascaded through their corp, and their alliance, and that's why they had enough cash in the alliance wallet to keep the SRP-chain flowing.
Everything in EVE matters - no matter how much it seems like it all evens out in the wash, when you look macro. Eventually, every large event is the end result of a chain of tiny ones.
And for those of us who are in the large events? For those of us who take leadership positions during those large events?
A few months ago, I was in a leadership position in one of the fleets in B-R5RB. A year ago, I was in a leadership position in one of the fleets in 6VDT. Two years ago, I was just some guy in a defunct Wormhole corp, chilling in highsec.
I've been in server-first raiding orgs in WoW. I've run them. I'm not going to tell you that theme-park MMOs have no ability to make your own destiny... but in the sandbox, you write your fate on a much larger scale.
When I ran a raiding org of over 2,000 raiders, that was big. Now? 2,000 people is one side of a big fight.
@Dunamis
"I wouldn't be surprised if most people would still AFK haul, even if they had an active defence module/s"
True, from my point of view though, with rigs the AFK player fully benefits as much as anyone else. With active defense, active players benefit more than AFK ones.
"Lucas is saying that it was extended to break a record."
Actually that's not what I'm saying at all. It was extended because people were enjoying it. And last year was extended too, so stripping this one down to the weekend only is forcing a shorter time scale. WE'll see how the results stand up when the official results come out. CCP menotined it in a talk on consumption, so it's clearly had an impact to some degree though. I'm generally weary of reading too much into Gevlons stats, as they more often than not are augmented by his analytic processes and differ wildly from the truth.
Arrendis said: "EVE is the only game where what you do, personally, matters" and "Everything in EVE matters"
What bullshit. In any game I play what I do matters to me, because I'm playing for my own entertainment. Other than that, your 'everything matters' comment is ridiculous. NO it doesn't.
Eve is no different from any other game in that respect. It's entertainment, nothing more.
EVE is the only game where what you do, personally, matters. It makes no difference if you're doing it big or small-time. You get a crappy loot drop and reprocess it. Then you sell the minerals. Someone buys them, because there are no NPC vendors, and puts them to use.
Right. Eve is a game where you do all that with the ultimate goal of being a bigger dick to the next guy than he is to you.
No thanks.
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