Tuesday, February 25, 2014

Goons being personal isn't personal

Update: huge victory over the propaganda squad of Goons! They trolled the Lemmings recruitment post until the point it was locked for derailment. But we petitioned it, and CCP Phantom reopened it after removing all Goon posts.


Every time I made a thread on EVE-O forums since the Lemmings campaign, Goons shown up in large numbers. Or to be specific, a handful of Goons shown up with large number of posts. This one, about RvB protecting Goons long before POCOs, is a perfect example. Compare Goon posters to RvB ones! The RvB posters depending on being directors or simple members, either tried some damage control or argued (that they are not pets, but allies). On the other hand Goon posters didn't even bother to present an argument or even opinion about the topic.

Their posts are all focused on one things: personal insults. Pages after pages they did nothing but questioning my sanity or simply informing me that I should be embarrassed or mad. Or parroting that "Marmite is scamming you", despite I already dedicated a post to it which they did not debate. Actually they never debated anything I claimed, their activity is limited to personal attacks. Weird. It doesn't make any sense.

Then, when reading some articles about supercapitals, a name hit me: Baki Yuku. During the TEST and EMP campaigns, Goons blamed every single failure on Baki Yuku. While I don't like him due to the EULA compatibility of his methods of gaining ISK, it's clear that he can't possibly be responsible for all the things Goons blamed him.

Then it became clear: social people want to upkeep a positive image about their person. They want to be liked and respected in the "community". The apostrophes are there, because usually this community is non-existent. I mean "random people who care to post on a forum" isn't a community. Read up wikipedia: "social unit of any size that shares common values". What common values do you share with Goons? But social people don't work this way. Their brain is hardwired to consider "people around me" a community. After all in prehistoric ages the people around you were your clan. The truth is that he is in his room watching the screen and the "people" he talks to might not even exist and just crafted troll personas. But it doesn't change how a social feels.

What he feels is "I'm here with these people and they don't like me". He becomes emotionally affected. He either wants to get out of this negative social situation (ragequit) or wants to prove himself (getting mad). Of course it was totally impossible for Baki Yuku to do anythign that the Goons didn't scorn. Similarly it's impossible for me to do anything that the Goons aren't considering failure. If the Lemmings would headshot VFK and kill 50 Goon titans, these guys would keep telling how big loser I am and how embarrassed I should be for my lack of progress and how all the money I spent is stolen by Tora (Marmite CEO) who is laughing on me now.

The Goon propaganda squad isn't arguing. They aren't even trolls. Their personal attacks is just their job, it's nothing personal. Their job is to make enemy leaders mad or ragequit. It worked on DotBros, probably had some effect on EMP/TEST, but will clearly not work on me.

Now sould come the part how my superior a-social mind is unaffected, but it's not true. They give me a headache. Literally. I don't bother you with details of the limbic system, so just laymen's terms: the emotional-animalistic part of my brain is yelling "They hate you! They want to eat you! Fight or run!" while the conscious-rational part is saying "these are just letters on your computer screen coming from people you despise." and their conflict makes the headache.

How can you protect yourself, especially if you a self-admitted social who cares about other people?

Do this every time someone spew insults, or simply posts garbage like "First!". Then, reading the forum will be much better and you'll be protected from their trolling:

Block them in-game too to neutralize the local trolling. Use every block, ignore and such features to remove them from your head. If you don't, they'll make you mad. Or just have a bad headache.


I've just realized how - accidentally - we created a method that neutralize their efforts: Lemmings is lead by a pilot named "General Lemming". He was born in the day Lemmings were formed. He is an alt of a director of Marmite Collective, who run Lemmings. I have no idea which one. Yep, I pay to a 1 month old alt without knowing who is the main behind him. Because I don't care, as long as the job is done. Good luck making an alt mad! This is why Goons spam "Tora (Marmite executor) is scamming you", because he is their best guess. And this is why their comments are sent around in mails among the directorate for laughter.

PS: I didn't know that Deklein anoms can escalate to Uedama. I also wrongfully thought that only frig and destroyer hulls can be bonused for small blasters.

35 comments:

Anonymous said...

Domi linked looks like a drone ratting boat. Light blasters are used to pull agro to the Domi which is the tank while drones go to work.

Anti said...

Goons have divide and conquer down to a fine art. they divide the enemy coalition(s) into manageable targets.

once the target is isolated (or even before) their hatchet men start weakening the reputation and influence of the leaders within that group.

quite often they praise one leader or group while insulting the other to create division in otherwise stable alliances.

reading james 315s post you linked to yesterday I thought I noticed the beginning of a hatchet job on pandemic legion leadership. N3 has been neutralised and it seems PL is the next to be split from the herd.

Anonymous said...

Being asshole is so much easier, therefore so many people chose to wear this mask over their anonymity. It is only pity, that people not even virtually strive for be something else as in real life. When Mitanni asked his friends to cyber bully a stranger just because he found him pathetic, well, what can you expect from such people?

Anonymous said...

Baki Yuku is a really bad example. There wasn't any need for Goons propaganda to make TESTies realize that he is pretty much Horus Mk II - just read his own eveger posts regarding botting, renting to botters, ... and hang out with him on Mumble for a few minutes.
His attitude was all the cancer of a corp like E115 condensed into a single person.

It would be interesting to analyze why extremely wealthy players such as Baki or Horus are such a reliable kiss of death when they try to prop up an alliance.
On the surface they seem to offer a great deal to the alliance that accepts them (ISK, supercapitals, ...) and I don't think that the "obvious" reason (selling out their alliance due to their involvement in shady botting/rmt dealings) is actually true, if anything they do have a strong business interest in stability and the success of their alliance.
Maybe you could learn something about the limits of your own patron approach by looking deeper into why they failed.

Arrendis said...

Anonymous said:
"It would be interesting to analyze why extremely wealthy players such as Baki or Horus are such a reliable kiss of death when they try to prop up an alliance.

"On the surface they seem to offer a great deal to the alliance that accepts them (ISK, supercapitals, ...) and I don't think that the "obvious" reason (selling out their alliance due to their involvement in shady botting/rmt dealings) is actually true, if anything they do have a strong business interest in stability and the success of their alliance.

"Maybe you could learn something about the limits of your own patron approach by looking deeper into why they failed."

In general, it's because of where their priorities lie: it's not with the Alliance. Their priorities lie with themselves, foremost - that's why they got so rich in the ways they did, and it's why they're willing to do things like Baki selling himself all of the Alliance's money-making moons... and then bailing w/the profits and the stolen dread cache.

Lucas Kell said...

@Gevlon
"On the other hand Goon posters didn't even bother to present an argument or even opinion about the topic."
That's because most of your topics are absurd and present no argument in themselves. If someone came running up to you in the street to tell you how cars were in fact demons sent from hell and were preparing for the end of days, you wouldn't formulate and argument against that. In the same way, your conspiracy theory about RvB is unfounded and ludicrous enough to make people question your sanity. Truly though, it's you doing exactly what you complain about here. You were trying to spin propaganda to break up RvB, which you stood no chance of doing as it was so far-fetched.

"Their posts are all focused on one things: personal insults"
I would question this coming from you, when you clearly call most people you encounter morons, and you directly insulted all goons when you attacked their humanity, because if they oppose you in game, there's no possible way they can be human. I think that was your train of thought. Not to mention the amount of insults you hurled towards TEST when you left. As usual, you are complaining about something that you yourself do.

"If the Lemmings would headshot VFK and kill 50 Goon titans"
Wrong. Like has happened in previous times, you would get commended. You wouldn't even necessarily need to win. The whole CFC saluted brave newbies for their stand in 0-W, because they stood their ground even with their allies leaving them and fought to the end. What they didn't do was kill a handful of idiots in highsec, then start screaming about how they've won and making up really bad propaganda. The truth is, you and your group are filled with impotent rage, because none of you understand how to actually deal damage to the people you hate, even though you've been told in no uncertain terms how to do it.

"all the money I spent is stolen by Tora (Marmite CEO) who is laughing on me now"
From an outside perspective, this is how it seems. Marmite have had to do barely a thing different from normal, just post a few posts and accept some recruits. All of the internal alliance leadership is someone else's issue. For that, they get their wars paid for and a paycheck on top. They haven't even remotely delivered on strategic objectives. As far as merc contracts go (which is what this is) this one seems pretty high paying for pretty little effort.

"I've just realized how - accidentally - we created a method that neutralize their efforts: Lemmings is lead by a pilot named "General Lemming". He was born in the day Lemmings were formed. He is an alt of a director of Marmite Collective"
You could also just try not being affected by it. I'd put forward that the act of hiding behind an alt itself is showing how it affects or would affect someone. Other than when I'm doing something that requires my identity to be hidden (spying, etc), I post on my main. Because it's a game at the end of the day and the way you avoid becoming emotionally attached is by just not becoming emotionally attached, because it's a game. I suppose your irrational hatred of the goons pretty much shows that's not an option though.

Gevlon said...

@Lucas:
My statement was debated by no one: 2/3 of RvB war losses in wars they started were in wars where they were formally allies of Goons. It's a bit far from "cars are demons".

Goons commend one thing: stupid. BNI was idiotic to just feed their fleet to Goons. They honestly wish to encourage all their enemies to do the same.

I've made a post clearly showing that for the money I got 135B damage on my targets. You can say it's a stupid goal, but you can't say Marmite isn't delivering.

Goons developed insulting to the perfection. Even I had headache from their post, despite being a blogger who deals with "kill yourself, shitbag" trolls in dozens every day. You must block them or they get to you.

Lucas Kell said...

@Gevlon
"My statement was debated by no one: 2/3 of RvB war losses in wars they started were in wars where they were formally allies of Goons. It's a bit far from "cars are demons"."
No, it wasn't. You took limited highsec wardec info from 2013, marked anything that didn't match your argument as "irrelevant", and ignored the reasoning for the other wars. Realistically, there were only 2 instances. The POCO treaty and joining in on Burn Jita. You then assumed that data to mean "for all time, RvB have defended goons", which itself is ludicrous. You then totally ignored all evidence to the contrary, such as RvB killing goon capitals, which seems like an odd thing for a goon built pet to do. Your methodology puts you with those crazy conspiracy theorists that wear tinfoil hats.

"Goons commend one thing: stupid. BNI was idiotic to just feed their fleet to Goons. They honestly wish to encourage all their enemies to do the same."
Bull. they commended then for having the cojones to actually stand and fight. You won't believe that though since you are biased, so in your mind, there MUST be another reason they said it. See how that tinfoil hattery is going again?

"I've made a post clearly showing that for the money I got 135B damage on my targets. You can say it's a stupid goal, but you can't say Marmite isn't delivering."
They aren't delivering any more than they would deliver anyway. You are still paying them to do what they normally do. If you look at what they are actually having to do for there payment, which is effectively nothing, since they were at war with goons anyway, you'll see you are paying them to play as they normally play and nothing more. But honestly go right ahead. Marmite are never going to venture into null so I don't really care how much of a bankroll they build up. They'll never go for strategic objectives because that wouldn't be good for isk efficiency.

"Goons developed insulting to the perfection. Even I had headache from their post, despite being a blogger who deals with "kill yourself, shitbag" trolls in dozens every day. You must block them or they get to you."
Then maybe you aren't as rational as you thought. You could get every member of EVE to insult me all day long, and it would do precisely zip, because it's a game, it's not real life. Getting emotionally attached to a game is pretty silly.

Gevlon said...

@Lucas: True. They only protected Goons related to POCOs and Burn Jita. Can you name any other Goon op in highsec where Goons could use protection? True, they don't give escort fleet to every idiot who comes to highsec in a Badger I from Torrinos and back.

About BNI: would you consider joining BNI? If not, why not?

Look, considering that "Marmite is shooting goons all the time" was explicitly refuted long ago and mentioned in this post (second paragraph), you are eating too much Goon propaganda. Comment on the linked post if you have disproof!

Why are you arguing on my blog day and night if you aren't attached?

Dàchéng said...

Are you complaining that the Goons are using the same tactics you used in WoW?

Gevlon said...

@Dacheng: I always berated morons and slackers because of their activity. "Look at the idiot spirit cloth warrior". Goons berate people who are dangerous to them based on nothing but social nonsense.

@Lucas: another 1000+ character with zero data. You know what? I don't need you here. Bye!

Anonymous said...

I'm looking forward to see what they say when a POCO does go down because it will. You are running a successful guerrilla warfare campaign on them, which clearly they can't do anything about.

Babar said...

You claimed that RvB helped Goons consistently through 2013 until now. This has been shown to be wrong, as it is only 2 unique situations: Burn Jita and the POCO alliance. From that, you concluded that RvB was in fact created by Goons to protect them in high-sec.

So to recap: Goons created RvB in 2009, 3 years before the first Burn Jita, and almost 5 years before high-sec POCO's. You have not retracted this statement. Do you still stand by it? And if you do, can you understand why others might not come to the same conclusion as you?

Gevlon said...

@Babar: They helped in another occasions too. The war on Blohm and Voss shipyard is another example.

I don't have the total RvB killboard to prove how long they are cooperating with Goons, but will have it.

I believe RvB was created by Goons and will provide some reasons on Thursday. I don't expect anyone to believe it because it's irrelevant. Maybe RvB was independent once and was corrupted/infiltrated before the first Burn Jita. What matters is NOW. Now RvB is an obvious Goon pet.

Babar said...

It matters with respect to this blog post, since you are dismissing all the criticism from Goons as personal attacks. The whole premise for your thread on the Eve forums was that RvB was created specifically by Goons, and you provided no evidence or even a reasonable speculation. This is basically the same as trolling, and you cannot expect people to not mock you mercilessly when you post something like that.

And even so, there was a lot of valid criticism in those 25 pages, but you didn't respond to any of it, you only kept on trolling.

I guess it's easier to just silence or ignore your critics rather than have to defend your point of view, but it's just doing you a disservice since both current and potential Lemmings recruits see the same thread.

Anonymous said...

Your assumption is that Blohm and Voss is a Goon alt corp. Where is the proof? Perhaps it is an RvB alt corp or the corp of friends to RvB,members. Both explanations would explain why RvB may help, buy only one supports your theory. So, where is the proof that Blohm is a Goon alt corp, especially when goons have an enormous amount of space to rat/do Indy work. Why would they need 1 extra system an another alt corp?

As for Burn Jita... I think you are viewing RvB's support with a bias towards your already stated conclusion. Perhaps, allying with goons created the most target rich environment for RvB. Goons goal in burn Jita was to go suspect and suicide gank haulers. To get goon kills, all you need was a sensor boosted vigil and target painters, concord did the rest.

On the other hand, many corps decced Goons trying to get kills before goons went suspect. Well... What costs nothing and let's you attack everyone at war with a target? Becoming an ally.

So by RvB allying with Goons, they could maximize targets. Goons you wait till they Ho suspect, fire ones shot, free kill. In the mean time, all the people deccing goons become fair targets for other fights.

Your conclusion is that there must have been.a conspiracy with RvB and Goons working together. Yet one can simply say RvB acted to maximize it's available targets on a weekend when those targets would be clustered 3-5 jumps from RvB's homeland.

Occam's razor suggested selecting the option with the least assumptions. In both the Blohm and Voss war and Burn Jita, you seem to favor conclusions requiring more assumptions, why?

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: maximizing your targets can be done by moving to lowsec or NPC nullsec and blueing no one like Brave Newbies did. Occam's razor says there must be additional elements in the RvB plans.

@Babar: I indeed failed to provide proof that RvB were created by Goons. I provided data that RvB is working with Goons since there is data to be found.

@Druur: I was unclear, my last comment is fixed.

Anonymous said...

I think you are correct in your assumption that the goons use forum trolling as a weapon of sort, and to shut down discussions they don't like. But I think you need to think about the effect this has on other than you.

Take Baki, he has been widely derided, including by you. I think very poorly of his leadership... But I have to admit that it is mostly based on the derision. Yes Test collapsed, but I don't know as a fact it was his fault, I wasn't there.

So these attacks aren't just to get you down, they are to hurt how you are perceived by others. This perception matters, as it affects how your projects and ideas are received. So blocking the goons may do more harm than good as you may not be able to counter certain attacks.

All that being said, you have said several things about RvB that were false and refused to rectify. For example, RvB *has* a srp. RvB *has* ratting space. It is hard for you to complain about goons disinformation when you sometimes do the same.

LR

Druur Monakh said...

@Gevlon Uhm, no. Even NPC Nullsec is too much hassle logistically and fleet composition-wise for what is meant to be mostly entertainment.

Note that RvB doesn't stay out of null sec completely, it's just not their main area of operations.

Anonymous shouldn't have used to the term 'maximize' though.

Anonymous said...

What common values do you share with Goons?

attention seeking.
The means to get it may be different. And yes they use bully, rage and butthurt to weaken their "enemies". But even if it is a job. in the end. it is all one big pet on the head.
You successfully lead N people to ragequit. here! get a cookie and a warm hug or whatever you crave (they say tears, i beg to differ).

Block them in-game too to neutralise the local trolling.[..]

Mental ignore is faster and independent of tech! Yes your mind will fail you, and it needs practise like with anything in life. but tech will not help either. like reidentifying quoted good written troll posts that are blocked by tech.
As always I highly suggest everyone to expose yourself to the art of severe trolling. places like 4chan and co are a great place to train up internet IV to V. Spend some time with /b/. there is nothing like it on the internet.

Gevlon you should already have allot SP in that skill with you moderating this blogs comments.
I don't read Lucas posts since weeks now. and your responses to him. I notice your exchange but can't bother to even remember the topics. I do what you finally have done: @Lucas: another 1000+ character with zero data. You know what? I don't need you here. Bye! In my case "scroll to the next comment"

Anonymous said...

What I should have said was:

"...maximize targets for the Burn Jita event".

My apologies. My point was, to get the most possible targets (and at least cost), allying with goons let RvB shoot at a huge pool of targets and the moment goons went suspect, RvB was free to shoot them too.

The only other way to have as many targets would be to Dec goons and all other major alliances that decced goons for the burn Jita event, which would be extremely costly.

Dàchéng said...

Gevlon, you replied:
@Dacheng: I always berated morons and slackers because of their activity. "Look at the idiot spirit cloth warrior". Goons berate people who are dangerous to them based on nothing but social nonsense.

My point was that when people didn't play WoW the way you wanted them to play, you berated them, and bullied them. Usually you didn't bother explaining to them why you thought they were "morons and slackers" or "filth". In fact, you didn't think it worth educating them. And yet in EVE, you aren't playing the way Goons want you to. And so they berate you as "filth" not worth bothering about, like you used to do in WoW.

Could it be that in Eve you are the equivalent of "the idiot spirit cloth warrior" in their eyes?

Gevlon said...

@Dacheng: The spirit cloth geared warrior has much less DPS or tank-ability than the strength plate geared warrior. Hence the "moron" title.

Goons don't bother to define on what aspect their berated are worse than them. What makes one a "pubbie shitlord"? Simply not being a Goon. It's like claiming that "those who play horde or mages in WoW are all idiots".

Anonymous said...

Occam's razor says there must be additional elements in the RvB plans.

Actually, Occam's razor suggests that the simplest answer is likely the most correct one. It is a razor based on the reduction of complexity, not adding additional elements.

Arrendis said...

Gevlon:
"Goons don't bother to define on what aspect their berated are worse than them. What makes one a "pubbie shitlord"? Simply not being a Goon."

Two completely different terms being used in conjunction there. As we've established, I'm a member of TNT. I am not a Goon*. I'm a pubbie.

I am a pubbie because I am not a Goon. I am not a Something Awful member with a consistent and active posting history on SA. Thus: pubbie.

That said, I am not a 'pubbie shitlord'. Why? Because I'm not a shitlord. Being a shitlord is completely independent of being a pubbie. There are shitlords who are goons.

Generally, being a shitlord is one of those 'you know a shitlord when you see it' things - Vince, for all his bluster and stupidity, is a shitlord. He is also a pubbie. He is, in fact, a pubbie shitlord. But he is not a shitlord because he is a pubbie.

* - I do have an SA account, and have been lurking there for some time, but I don't really have enough of an active posting history to consider myself to have any claim to 'being a goon'.

Stabs said...

"It would be interesting to analyze why extremely wealthy players such as Baki or Horus are such a reliable kiss of death when they try to prop up an alliance."

I flew with Baki both in Test and in EMP.

The reason he ends up with authority is he steps up and does stuff in alliances which both became somewhat lethargic.

There's a lot wrong with him - he's very rude (in fact he told me to go kill myself irl). His appalling personal skills are probably the driver for the Nork/Test split.

But most of what he's accused of is bollocks, it's goons writing the narrative.

Even the botting thing - he claims it was a troll. People asked how he got so much money and he just said that to provoke them. It's basically a line made up by Goons which everyone believes, even Gevlon believes it.

His dread welps were the kiss of death for both Test and Emp but the only reason he was FCing dreads was because their more established people were afk or unmotivated to lead.

TLDR - he is an ass but don't believe everything you read. In particular don't believe everything goons write.

Dàchéng said...

What makes one a "pubbie shitlord"?

You view the mythical spirit-cloth garbed warrior in WoW as "filth", without bothering to tell him why.

In your head, you feel you have a valid reason: he is playing WoW wrongly, because he isn't playing the way you would. He isn't optimizing his gear to shave 20 seconds off a dungeon run.

This is key. You believe he should play in a certain way that seems logical and obvious to you, he believes he should play the way he wants to, not the way you want him to. He isn't there to make your life better by saving you 20 seconds. He's wearing cloth for his own reasons (maybe he's having fun with his friends laughing at how ridiculous he looks; who knows, he's a mythical creature of your creation). He doesn't care what you think. Nonetheless, you call him "filth", because he doesn't conform to your norms of correct play.

In the same way, you are called a "pubbie shitlord" by Goons because they think of you as you think of this cloth-wearing warrior. They feel you are playing badly/wrongly.

Gevlon said...

@Dacheng: you wrote the key line: "They FEEL you are playing badly/wrongly". On the other hand the spirit cloth warrior is OBJECTIVELY playing WoW wrong. He clicks the role "damage dealer" and then he is unable to deal damage. Or clicks on "tank" and can't tank.

@Arrendis: "you know a shitlord when you see it" is a blanket authorization to name anyone shitlords.

@Anonymous: I meant that the answer "they just want max targets" isn't correct, because the simplest way to get max targets is lowsec/NPC null. Brave Newbies want max targets.

Rammstein said...

@Dacheng: Imagine an exchange where you're a person who is trying to convince a police officer (or soldier) that he was the same as an armed criminal, because both shoot people with guns when necessary. The policeman patiently explains to you that no, here's a list of differences between the two. You reply, no, you don't get it, you both have guns and shoot people when you find it necessary. He explains again, at a more basic level, what the difference is. You're horrorstruck. Doesn't he see your point? They both use guns!

Do you see the problem with your argument now? It's not that you're wrong in your claim, it's that you're not making any real point and you keep repeating yourself. This is, incidentally, something that propagandists love to do, so at first I assumed you were one, but now I lean towards the theory that you've hit on this by accident. Take a true statement, that's vaguely relevant. Repeat it hundreds of times, throw in insults, pretend like it means you won the discussion. This is typical propaganda.

Anonymous said...

You missed the main part of their Propaganda, the driving hostile leaders mad thing is just a side effect.

The main purpose is to discredit people who either say stuff that goons don't want to be said, or people who could rally more people.

They main job is to keep the legend of goons intact. No matter how far it deviates from reality

Dàchéng said...

Gevlon wrote, in response to me:
you wrote the key line: "They FEEL you are playing badly/wrongly". On the other hand the spirit cloth warrior is OBJECTIVELY playing WoW wrong.

The spirit cloth warrior is OBJECTIVELY wrong at playing the game you want him to play (which may not be the game he is playing). That's why you call him "filth".

Similarly, you are OBJECTIVELY wrong at playing the game the Goons are playing (you have no sov, no moon-goo, no renters - however null-space alliances measure their success). That's why they call you names. They don't care that you're playing a different game to them, just as you don't care that the spirit-cloth warrior is playing a different game to the one you and Blizzard want him to play.

@Rammstein I'm sorry, I didn't understand your point.

Anonymous said...

Oh man Lucas finally gone. Been ignoring his posts for months.

Dacheng seems like he's cut from the same cloth.

@dacheng: the spirit warrior has a goal, to clear a dungeon and get loot. Unfortunately being in cloth basically makes that goal impossible. It is like attempting to rat in eve with a laser badger. You can do it but objectively, it is a dumb thing to do.

Ephemeron said...

"It worked on DotBros, probably had some effect on EMP/TEST, but will clearly not work on me."

It already did.

According to the 'about' section of your blog, its purpose is to discuss economics and rational philosophy. Yet if we check the ISK and Ideas tags respectively, we'll see that your last economy/philosophy related posts have been made in September.

So, for all intents and purposes, they have shut down your blog 5 months ago and replaced it with one whose sole topic is GOONS GOONS GOONS.

Gevlon said...

@Ephemeron: no, I just slacked tagging post. They are "new" for months, despite they should only be for 30 days. I'm fixing now

Gevlon said...

@Ephemeron: no, I just slacked tagging post. They are "new" for months, despite they should only be for 30 days. I'm fixing now

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