Sunday, February 16, 2014

Did you watch the Goon stream carefully?

So Goons decided to try to take the Nulli Secunda staging system. Since no Sov was dropped, they have to constantly camp while the station timers are running down. That's about a week. N3 only have to form up once to evacuate and only have to win one timer to break the camp completely.

But I'm not writing an extra post about the war against alliances I can't care about. Nulli and co - while not running pogroms against industrial players - clearly don't value us higher. They also value PvP and keep "carebears" only as renters. If they get beaten to lowsec (again), I can't care less.

Why I mention it then? Because - for obvious propaganda purposes - the Goons are livestreaming their campaign. Look at this screenshot:

What happened?


Out of the 288 members of the alliance, 52 were online. 42 in fleet, undocking from Jita.


We were on a mission to cleanse highsec from the Goon filth.


We trolled the few Goons and pets who were in local.


Look! A friendly fleet. Marmites came in a 40 strong battleship fleet.


After finishing with the Perimiter POCOs, we went to the Jita undock, to inform other highsec wardeccers who is the new power in Jita. We are recruiting by the way!

Then we went to Sobaseki and reinforced the POCOs there too. During that we had a comedy moment. What is the best moment for a suspect Tengu to get blocked by traffic on the Sobaseki gate? When 40 Lemmings jump trough it.

So 23 Goon POCOs reinforced, their highsec pets are on the run and they are occupied with Nulli. Bad news for the beefolk!

Finally an extra comedy: this pet won't be there at the hellcamp!

35 comments:

Arrendis said...

A couple of minor points, Gevlon:

First, you say "N3 only have to form up once to evacuate and only have to win one timer to break the camp completely."

Technically, that's entirely true. However, they have to form up with enough firepower to actually break the camp - and that's including slow-boating their capital ships out through close to 100km of anchored bubbles at this point. Otherwise, all they do is feed us kills. That's not a recipe for winning the timers.

Second, if that Thanatos was ever going to be at the hellcamp, he'd have been down in AF0 at least 36 hrs ago. So, you know, no loss. Really. When we've been asked for one week of full commitment, and someone can't be bothered to pull their weight, I'm not gonna mourn him. Good work on the kill, Marmite & Co.

Third... well, this is actually something I've just been kind of curious about: given that CONDI's POCO taxes are lower than anyone else's in the Forge, why should high-sec residents support your campaign to cost them money?

Anonymous said...

I think maybe you should look at the history of hell camps before telling the world how you think they work.

23.5hrs a day, the system will be locked down. Hell camps are awful for both sides but the goons are absolute pros at htem...

Nulli ain't surviving this..

Erotica 1 said...

And then Goons come take them back later. You know, I think the bigger winner will be people who sell gantries.

billyjimbob said...

Let's see if you can hold them. If you're the 'new power in high sec' you'll need to be able to defend them. I don't doubt you'll take them because we're all enjoying hellcamping so aren't going to turn up.

I suspect you know you can't.

If you guys don't turn up to defend them it's going to be very telling.

Anonymous said...

"Let's see if you can hold them. If you're the 'new power in high sec' you'll need to be able to defend them. I don't doubt you'll take them because we're all enjoying hellcamping so aren't going to turn up."

It seems like a Goon is being preemptively butthurt.

Rammstein said...

"You'll never recruit anyone, no one in highsec cares or can fight."

"You'll never be able to kill any goons, and if you do it won't make any difference to their endless ISK reserves."

"Ok, you're killing some goons, but it doesn't matter, and you ran away when they showed up to defend the POCO, this will never work."

"Fine, you can reinforce some POCO's, but it doesn't count unless you destroy them."

"Ok, you destroyed one, but they replaced it, so that doesn't count either."

"Ok, it looks like you'll probably destroy it tomorrow, but can you hold them in the long term? If you don't, it won't count."

You have to hand it to the Goons, they're expert goalpost movers.

@billyjimbob: where did anyone but you claim that the lemmings are the " 'new power in high sec' "? Or is this just something you fashioned merely to tear down, i.e., not a moved goalpost, but one you built yourself out of straw?

That aside, I don't agree with your claim. I could just as easily claim that the Goons don't really control the systems they hold sov in unless they fully upgrade every one, and don't have renters in them. The obvious retort, no doubt, would be "that's nothing but a waste of ISK and time, that wouldn't even pay for itself." Yes, my point exactly.

Foo said...

My eve time has been, and will continue to be restricted.

However, I would like to turn up for the timers if I can be online for any of them.

Is there a list of timers accessible to lemming pilots?

Gevlon said...

Goons timered everything to 0:00 EVE time, the exact times are visible to everyone, just enter Perimiter/Sobaseki and see them yourself.

Anonymous said...

@Rammstein actually no, the goal posts were set by Gevlon - destruction of all Goon POCOs in highsec.

That is the only goal post. He's the one moving it by making it about kill/death ratios, reinforcing POCOs (which doesn't count, until they are destroyed) and the like.

In order to achieve victory by his own standards he must remove all Goon POCOs... if even one *even just one single POCO* remains in goon hands he fails. He knows this, which is why he is seeking to distract his readers and control the narrative. We're just holding him to task and refusing to allow him to weasel out.

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: This would be stupid. Why would I want those specific POCOs.

I want to defeat Goons, and one phase of that process is MEASURED in destroying their POCOs.

I've found an earlier phase that can be measured with kill/deaths, and there are later phases - after all, Goons REALLY don't want those POCOs desperately. They want them, but can live without them.

Lucas Kell said...

@Rammstein
It's funny how you plop everything in quotes, yet what you've quoted I've not seen stated anywhere. I mean "You'll never recruit anyone, no one in highsec cares or can fight.", that's simply ludicrous. When your recruitment criteria is non existent, it would be pretty difficult to not recruit. As for the rest, the same has been stated from day 1. In order to fulfill the criteria Gevlon himself set, then no POCOs can be owned by goons. But instead of actually fighting for them, they've been doing it the Marmite way by ganking on gates then staring at their killboard.

@Gevlon
"I want to defeat Goons, and one phase of that process is MEASURED in destroying their POCOs."
In all honesty, how is that a measure of success. I mean think about it rationally (which we are led to believe you can do). Goons clearly can form thousands of players for a timer. This means if you start a timer, and goons don't show up in the thousands, then they didn't want to show up. You haven't beaten them back, they simply didn't bother turning up.

Now if they do show up, are your guys going to fight? No, of course not, you've already stated that you'll run away as, in your own words, "I'd have to be a serious mental patient to believe that I have a chance to defeat CFC". At the end of the day, your level of destruction will be limited to what the goons choose to let you destroy. With a 24/7 hellcamp, it's distinctly possible that they'll chooses to ignore POCO timers in favour of winning EVE, but it'll look pretty ridiculous if you start dancing around screaming "we beat goons!" after that.

You do really need to set clear and concise victory conditions to be able to achieve them. I'd suggest "No goons POCOs able to be placed in high sec for longer than a week before destruction" for example. To date, your victory conditions seem to change daily to "just ahead of whatever we did yesterday", which may make morons get pretty excited, but those of us with half an ounce of sense can clearly see though it. If you truly are able to think rationally, take a step back and look at the whole situation realistically from the outside.

Gevlon said...

@Lucas: "ahead of yesterday" is pretty good, because at the end, it means Goons are defeated. If we keep growing infinitely, we can outblob them. It's clear we can't go infinitely. So the victory condition is: "taking all POCOs and destroy Goon presence in highsec before our growth stops".

Goons "choose" to ignore the POCOs because they have more pressing business. So they lose POCOs, then highsec presence, and so on, and so on.

I won't defeat them ALONE. But they will be defeated.

Lucas Kell said...

@Gevlon
""ahead of yesterday" is pretty good, because at the end, it means Goons are defeated. If we keep growing infinitely, we can outblob them."
That only works if you are always moving forward, and taking steps towards actually damaging the goons. When you are getting kills on gates, that's not affecting them in the slightest, so when the metric is "KB Stats" it means nothing.

"So the victory condition is: "taking all POCOs and destroy Goon presence in highsec before our growth stops"."
So what is your strategy for keeping goons out of high sec. If they simply don't show up for a bit, is that victory? Then if they turn up an stomp all over Jita again, and mash through POCOs, are you still victorious? How will you actually stop them?

"I won't defeat them ALONE. But they will be defeated."
How? Explain to me how they will be defeated. I honestly don't understand what your definition of defeat must be to come to this conclusion. You guys are not the first group to attack the goons, and you are certainly not the most efficient at it. What do you think it is that suddenly makes your group of rag-tag high sec players better? Is it the isk? Because newsflash, the amount of isk you have is pretty peasant compared to many others.

Gevlon said...

@Lucas: again, we disagree with something and neither of us can have evidence to prove it.

You claim that a Goon member losing ISK in highsec does not affect Goons as it doesn't destroy war assets.

I claim that the Goon member himself is the most valuable war asset and by destroying his personal ISK, he is disabled for the time he re-grinds the ISK.

We'll see if Goon losses lead to decreased fleet presence or not.

Highsec POCOs on the other hand clearly fill the GSF war chest, so taking them is unquestionably hurting GSF.

Lucas Kell said...

@Gevlon
"You claim that a Goon member losing ISK in highsec does not affect Goons as it doesn't destroy war assets.

I claim that the Goon member himself is the most valuable war asset and by destroying his personal ISK, he is disabled for the time he re-grinds the ISK."
I do have evidence though. The fact that trillions have been lost in high sec over the years, yet we continue to fight and win wars continuously. This you can verify yourself. Internally, we have participation stats, which don't suddenly dip the moment lemmings shoot people on the Jita undock.

All you have in an unreasonable assumption that members of the CFC are going to have a little fit and refuse to do what they need to do because they lost some ship in high sec. That's just simply not the case. I'm sure there are maybe a handful of people like that across the entire coalition that haven't got themselves purged yet, but not enough to make any sort of noticeable difference.

"Highsec POCOs on the other hand clearly fill the GSF war chest, so taking them is unquestionably hurting GSF."
Sure, though you haven't actually taken any yet. And then, how much do they actually make? I've seen stats on some POCOs and personally, I own a few, so I know their income is nowhere close to the levels they were expected to have. Even if all of them were lost, it would barely touch the income levels when compared to things like renting.

Seriously, all of the information you need to make reasonable conclusions is out there, you just dismiss any information that goes against your ideals, and you always have.

daniel said...

"Anonymous said...

@Rammstein actually no, the goal posts were set by Gevlon - destruction of all Goon POCOs in highsec.

That is the only goal post."


if your national football/soccer team attends the next worldcup, their stated goal will be the title.
however, they might end up with 2nd, 3rd, whatever place, and still managed to play a decent tournament, though not having achieved their stated goal, they still might not return as losers.

what gevlon started is some kind of guerilla warfare thingy. maybe he will succeed, maybe he won't, time will tell, but what remains is another annoyance to goons.

imperial overstretching is what brought down most empires so far.

in the end it is about bringing conflict to highsec.


lucas, like your leader, he proposes big goals, hopes for the maximum, and accepts the mediocre outcome - or how are we supposed to rate the recent nullicamping yada yada?

Gevlon said...

@Lucas: you ignore the effect on morale too. We are "highsec pubbie shitlords", we are supposed to be farmed by Goons not farming Goons.

Being killed by a Lemming is probably the most unfun way to die for a Goon.

Lucas Kell said...

@daniel
"lucas, like your leader, he proposes big goals, hopes for the maximum, and accepts the mediocre outcome - or how are we supposed to rate the recent nullicamping yada yada?"
You mean beside the space we own, the clear strategic victories, and even the admission of loss from the opposing side?

"you ignore the effect on morale too. We are "highsec pubbie shitlords", we are supposed to be farmed by Goons not farming Goons."
What effect on morale? Believe it or not, beside the few of us that are following the posting, most goons don't even know you guys exist. You're just filed under the generic category of "high sec wardec" which covers a lot of groups. For the vast majority of the CFC, we'll never even see you, since we don't actually go to high sec. You're just projecting the emotion you think you'd feel if you were in a null group and getting killed in high sec. They don't actually reflect the realism of the situation. Just think about it. If 300 random people with barely any leadership could do actual feasible damage to a null sec group without leaving the safety of high sec, don't you think it would have been done by now?

In all honesty, the discussion about it is pretty tiring and it's been going on long enough now that it's starting to lose the entertainment value. It's clear that you lot are going to continue of forever with the delusional belief that you are somehow making a difference, and no amount of rational reasoning will change that. I eagerly await your announcement that this hasn't worked (and it's someone else's fault obviously) so perhaps you can move onto a more entertaining endeavour. Perhaps funding a new null sec group. Now that would be worth seeing (note, the recruitment plan of "anyone" won't work for that).

professor clio said...

See Gevlon, I told you your shit talking would get us back in... and just in time to hopefully engage marmite/lemmings on those goon pocos!

Should be fun!

Phelps said...

ISK is fungible. Being a free marketeer, Gevlon groks this. Lucas doesn't even seem to be aware of the concept of fungibility.

Foo said...

Having to continuously defend POCOs makes them unprofitable to own.

This means that the Goon highsec POCO's are a status symbol. A visible monument to the Goons.

But every solar system of POCO's is worth a capital hull.

So the goons have a choice:
* defend their status symbols (at a cost of reduced support for other operations, or impositions on allies)
* immediately replace (requires quick ninja placement, and accepting the initial loss).
* Lose their status symbols (potentially replacing them later).

Highsec POCO's are best owned by corporations not in wardecs.

The counter to ninja placement is other neutral off-grid cloaked industrials with gantries and upgrades ready. Placing a poco with upgrades takes seconds.

GWI said...

Couldn't have picked better timing on this. If anyone were to want to take a poke at the elephant, now is the time.

I wouldn't be suprised if all of a sudden TEST decided to reinforce a bunch of random systems just to kick them while they are beating the war drums.

Too bad I don't expect PL to do the same.

Anonymous said...

have you considered what to do with all the POCO locations?

make many corps and give 1 POCO per alt corp perhaps? then when they wardec each corp ally on that wardec.

or perhaps instead allow a 3rd party to place POCOs. I was thinking TEST or PL but you might think of someone better.

billyjimbob said...

@Rammstein did you read the article or just skip to the comments?

To quote:

"After finishing with the Perimiter POCOs, we went to the Jita undock, to inform other highsec wardeccers who is the new power in Jita. We are recruiting by the way!"

I don't care if you take them or not as long as there is content for me.

daniel said...

i don't think this game should be a nullsec only thing.

plus, the recruit anyone plan is working out pretty fine for bni.

Ephemeron said...

Clearly, you are not winning fast enough.

Lucas Kell said...

@Phelps
"ISK is fungible. Being a free marketeer, Gevlon groks this. Lucas doesn't even seem to be aware of the concept of fungibility."
You perhaps are unaware of the fact that I too am a trader. The ability to shift goods about on a marketplace though doesn't suddenly mean you are automatically an expert with everything ISK. There's clear evidence that shows that killing a null player in high sec has no impact on anything, there's even concise explanations for why this is the case. Gevlon is simply grasping at straws, trying to find a way he can explain why what lemmings is doing has purpose.

The idea that a player killed in high sec is suddenly not going to be able to play in null has nothing to do with fungibility. Null assets are separate to high sec ones. Once you've been on one OP, you can pretty much go on them forever, since the alliance pays for your replacements. Surely, you understand that this is a game right? People want fun, like blowing up internet spaceships. They get to have that fun paid for by the alliance. They don't need to increase their personal wealth during that time as they can do that during any other time (or they can multibox and do both). They don't go into some hyper grindfest the moment they lose something personal, not stopping the grind until they reclaim what they've lost. If anything, the opposite is more likely to happen. People losing personal assets are more likely to choose to instead focus on alliance activities as this is paid for them. This way, all income they make is savings in the bank for a rainy day.

@Foo
"defend their status symbols (at a cost of reduced support for other operations, or impositions on allies)"
They have a unit set up specifically for high sec ops, so when they form up, nothing else is affected. anyone with a spare alt is always welcomed along though. Notice that the hellcamp didn't pause while they formed up last night.

On top of that they have a treaty with RvB. See what Gevlon seems to be incapable of understanding is that all this "social stuff" is politics. People work on having agreements between entities for mutual benefits, which involves good old fashioned social interaction. The Lemmings led off by insulting RvB instead, pretty much ending any hope of a political resolution. This means they have to do everything by force, and they simply don't have the numbers or the skills for that.

@Anon
"have you considered what to do with all the POCO locations?"
Yes they have. They've decided to not show up to take them (was anyone really surprised by this?) so the goons get to keep them. Hurrah! Continued low tax rates (since RvB and Goons have the lowest tax rate POCOs).

Lucas Kell said...

@daniel
"plus, the recruit anyone plan is working out pretty fine for bni."
Sure, it works for high sec and low sec when going up against people who are also made up of randoms. When you are challenging a group that has well defined strategies however, a group of randoms will only be able to rely on sheer numbers (which I doubt lemmings will ever surpass goons in numbers). Even with that though, there needs to be good leadership at the top, not absentee leadership like the Lemmings has.

And FYI, the game isn't a nullsec only thing. High sec gets pretty much left alone by the bulk of the goons except for the occasional interdiction or Burn Jita to manipulate the market. The POCOs were all taken right a the start when many people though they were worth trillions, and the tax rates were set to be lower than anyone else. This whole thing wasn't really started because high sec hates goon POCOs, it was because goons wouldn't let Gevlon join them directly, and he doesn't understand how the rest of their alliance or the CFC in general is structured.

There is no outome from this that ends well for high sec.
The POCOs might get taken, but then tax goes up. They might not get taken, but might cost more, thus tax goes up. They might just make enough noise that goons think "lets put highsec back in it's place again" and they'll run another Burn Jita. I honestly don't know what outcome is really being aimed for with all this, and frankly, I don't think Lemmings leadership knows either.

Professor Clio said...

Correction about RvB's poco income: Every single isk that comes out of those goes back to RvB members. 3x times a week we hold fights where we reimburse lost ships (2 of those are cruiser fights, 1 BC), we have a reward system in place for FCs, we hand out free frigates to newer players. Most of the directors even donate some of their own isk to provide prizes for various events. The main reason we're still in is because we all think you're a disgrace to eve and we want to make sure you don't achieve a thing. You had to make it personal.

I've not heard a single complaint from an RvB member about being in these wars, even the ones who lost their pods to marmite mostly took it in stride as a lesson in eve. Overall the mood about these wars in RvB is quite positive.

But what would I know, I'm only a director and the guy who FCs most of the POCO fleets. (by the way how do you explain that we got 90 people to volunteer to get into our fleet last night if our members are so sick of these wars?)

Bottom line is that people join RvB for pvp, all sorts of pvp, both arranged and of the wartarget kind. You can't see that because its not in you to enjoy pvp. (that's not an insult by the way, it takes all kinds for eve to function)

Gevlon said...

@Professor Clio: nice try to save face pet!

Sure, a whole alliance is happy to be locked in a 35-40% ISK ratio war AND another with Marmite because they want to fight some random blogger, that 99% of them never even heard of.

Totally believable. The alternative, that you were simply intimidated by Goons that they take away your RMT POCOs is impossible.

Anonymous said...

@Lucas
"There's clear evidence that shows that killing a null player in high sec has no impact on anything"

Where is this evidence? Do you have difficulty comprehending the relationship between cause and effect? Wherever a "null player" loses a ship, that ship is lost, as is the time/ISK/opportunity cost of replacing it or being interrupted in whatever they were up to when that ship was lost. Small disruptions are still disruptions. You seem unable to fathom losses on a macro scale, or to imagine how they might increase in the future.

Lucas Kell said...

@Anon
"Where is this evidence?"
Uh no, the clear evidence is in the years of high sec wars with null not crumbling at their mercy.

"Wherever a "null player" loses a ship, that ship is lost, as is the time/ISK/opportunity cost of replacing it or being interrupted in whatever they were up to when that ship was lost. Small disruptions are still disruptions. You seem unable to fathom losses on a macro scale, or to imagine how they might increase in the future."
OK, you might not get this, as you've clearely missed it the other 3 billion times it's been said. So read this nice... and ... slow... OK? Take it bite by bite.

Losses in highsec are personal income.
Null sec alliances run off of alliance income.
Participation in OPs is mandatory if you are online.
Thus losing personal income does not have effect on null.
I honestly couldn't care less whether or not you want to think it makes a difference, the fact will remain that it makes no difference whatsoever. You seem to be unable to fathom the fact that there are 2 very separate activities. A random goon losing a billion isk ship in highsec affects null operations as much as Gevlon losing a shuttle in a wormhole does.

Guerdon Malpheron said...

@Professor Clio
"The main reason we're still in is because we all think you're a disgrace to eve and we want to make sure you don't achieve a thing. You had to make it personal."
So while I commend you for the noble efforts of your group to makes PvP more friendly and accessible to noobs, this comment makes no sense. First, which is it? Is he a disgrace or did he make it personal? If he's a disgrace that implies he's done something wrong within the context of EVE or the human experience in general. I don't see any evidence pointing towards that. If he's done something objectively terrible in terms of EVE why haven't more formed up against him who did not have pre-existing treaties and alliances with his adversary? Why has he drawn and continues to draw so many allies to his cause? Please do keep in the mind the game you're play while clarifying his transgressions. If he made it personal then that hardly has anything to do with whatever level of grace he may or may not exhibit now does it?

Finally, if you do wish to fight the injustices that have been wrought upon EVE perhaps you should be looking towards the actions of the ally you so fervently protect.

Lucas Kell said...

@Guerdon Malpheron
"Finally, if you do wish to fight the injustices that have been wrought upon EVE perhaps you should be looking towards the actions of the ally you so fervently protect."
Yes, because everyone knows goons are evil.

Because they gank people. Oh wait, both Marmite and Gevlon do that.

Because they hate newbies. Oh wait, they have an excellent newbie program.

Because they take all the POCOS and bully people with high tax rates! No, wait, they have the lowest rates going.

Because they are elitist? Nope, can't be that as almost every major alliance is elitist, and again, see newbie program.

Nope, it's no good, you'll have to point out why exactly RvB should automatically hate goons over all other groups.

Guerdon Malpheron said...

@Lucas
Those are your examples, not mine. I didn't state any of those implicitly or explicitly. Not am I trying to argue RvB should be at war with the Goons. I'm trying to understand Prof C.'s meaning that antagonism toward Gelvon is warranted under the pretenses of his behavior being disgraceful while at the same time ally themselves with groups who have a very spotted history. If you want to know why I believe the Goons have a spotted history you'll have to wait until I'm home. That requires more times than is currently at my disposal.

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