Greedy Goblin

Friday, August 16, 2013

The donation board is recognition

Donations in MMOs aren't new and clearly not I invented them. When I started playing WoW, there were already punks begging for "1G plox" in general channel (local in EVE). Despite its ruthless nature, EVE had its donations pretty often, just think of the Angel project.

What I invented is the very thing why commenters hate me so much. Just check any of my post republished on EN24. Hundreds of comments throwing insults and hate without any kind of argument. Why? I mean if my post was just bad, it would be ignored. There are many bad bloggers out there and they are all famous for ... nothing. They don't get visitors, because no one likes to read crap. They don't get links as they aren't interesting. They mumble alone and slowly give up and stop. If I was one of them, I wouldn't attract hate, I'd attract nobody.

The reason of the hate can be summarized in a comment given by someone posting under the tag "mynnna" (I can't verify his identity, but the comment is interesting on its own): "Except for the parts where, you know, reality. The parts where they [the renters] don't expect recognition or to be lauded for and fawned over for their contributions, and the part where we wouldn't anyway."

Recognition. This is the key. I'm not the first "carebear" blogging or posting on forums. But I'm the first who expect recognition for being a carebear instead of humbly asking permission to live. I'm the first who challenge the status quo where a frigroaming idiot belongs to a higher class than any carebear. Before me, no one questioned that carebears are at the bottom of the food chain, they only exist as content for the people who "get EVE". I was the first who pointed out that the oh-so-mighty nullsec alliances are dirt poor, their income/capita would make a newbie miner laugh, and they are flying the cheapest crap in the game because they can't afford better. While all carebears reject PvP, I was the first who did not do so with fear or moralization (they are mean, I'm not mean!) but with laughter: look at the poor losers brawling in crap ships!

I'm far from being the first carebear going nullsec. Actually all nullsec players who don't buy PLEX from CCP for their ISK are carebears, since ISK must be farmed. However I was the first who boldly kept carebearing on his main, instead of yelling "I'm a PvP-er, let's kill mining publords for fun" while running 4 Retrievers on the other screen. I'm the first carebear who did not live in self-hate and secrecy, but stood out and said: "I'm a carebear and not ashamed of it. You should be ashamed for that bombless bomber or T1 cruiser you fly."

TEST alliance, probably out of desperation did as I asked: gave recognition to carebears. For two weeks we could be the saviors of TEST. We had our killboard-like toplist, we could be proud of what we did. And we repaid this recognition with money eclipsing regions of moons or renters. For that I'm grateful for TEST. Why did the donations stop? Because TEST leadership proved itself unworthy of managing our money (like with having directors steal, awox and quit).

Sooner or later a nullsec group will overcome the self-enlarging lie "we are awesome just because we do PvP, even if our PvP is just being smartbombed by R&K" and give the "carebears" recognition, welcome them into their alliance for being carebears. This alliance will be able to throw away dread fleets like Talwars. That day the Goons will either adapt and do the same, removing the last bit of "being a Goon" or will be swept away. One by one their pets will switch sides and finally everything they built will be destroyed and they'll only be mentioned as BoB now: as a bad joke from the past. Oh wait. They are already a bad joke.

PS: I think I solved the awox problem too (a carebear/fleetbear corp must have wide recruitment, so easy entrance for awoxers). The corp is not in the alliance, but set light blue (enough for fleet access) and awoxers (who can't be kicked since don't log out) will be set individually -10 by the alliance so they show up as reds. They also lose their docking rights in alliance space (and the corp has no stations). The renters set the corp itself to red and bears are told not to go to renter space or the designated "ratting space for members". Ratters can also set the corp red to avoid awoxing, if they are careless and don't switch it back when they leave the ratting space, they pay reimbursement. This way the members of the bearcorp can't awox anyone else than other bears but since we make our ISK in highsec alts, it's not a problem.


Behnid Arcani said...

They've been doing things their way for a long time now. People don't want to admit it might not have been the best way.

Quite simply, they have this fantasy where only they can do what they do. Their feats cannot be accomplished by someone else, because they are the special stars.

The reason you draw a lot of flak, is because you operate under a different set of ideals: anything you do to succeed can be copied by someone else for similar results.

Besides, the dirty secret of null-sec is that they are more risk averse than anyone in the game. Large tracts of GSF is held empty, yet none of the brave null-sec alliances are flying in there with bomber wings to poke at the swarm, even though it was proved in the Fountain war to be effective.

Maxim Preobrazhenskiy said...

An organisation that supports industrialist play is not going to just appear.

IRL Europe, it pretty much took Protestantism, celebrating work ethic, establishing and enforcing ground rules for fair money exchange and providing people moral ground to stand on above all the RL "PvPers" of that time.

In Eve-verse, i'd say it would take an alliance that manages to be successful in sov-wars with industrialist mentality, with alliance leaders being openly vocal about the underlying ethics.

Thing is, though, an organisation like that needs to be actively built. And the person starting it would have to start it without any support at all.

Anonymous said...

You lack of knowledge about Eve comes out once again. You are no the first carebear to expect recognition. Also, in reality, carebears are not considered the bottom of the food chain. If you take away the propaganda and kid mentality of some people, you'll find out PvPers and carebears coexist. They are also being highly regarded, if they speak their voice (see Mabrick, k162space). As you found out, even PvPers need to do some carebearing from time to time. That is natural. We all know it. Each group needs the other as a peer. And there is no greater recognition for an industrialist, than buying stuff he produces (and blowing it up). Every ship bought by a PvPer is an acknowledgment of the importance of carebears. What else do you need as recognition?
You also stick to thinking that cheap stuff is no worth flying. It is. Eve is designed so every ship class has a meaning. A swarm of T1 frigs will bring any BS down with much lowers cost (and much fun). That is wow mentality coming out again and it's bad. It doesn't work in eve and people keep telling you this all the time, yet you constantly choose to ignore more experienced and knowledgeable players. As for "frigroaming idiots" - solo roaming in a frig is THE most challenging form of PvP. These "idiots", as you call them, are the same people who win tournament matches. Have some respect for people better than you - they deserve it. You also attack people who kill carebears and calling themselves PvPers, while carebearing in the meantime. Let me just remind you how not long ago you desperately wanted people to call you a PvPer because of your mining barge ganks, while doing full-time trading on main. Let's just leave it at that, shall we?

Lucas Kell said...

While i disagree with most of what is here, I want to address 1 point specifically:
"I was the first who pointed out that the oh-so-mighty nullsec alliances are dirt poor, their income/capita would make a newbie miner laugh, and they are flying the cheapest crap in the game because they can't afford better."

So firstly, your method of determining their income is flawed. You took a guess at what the alliance monthly income was, then divided it by the number of characters they have in the alliance. So firstly, your initial amount was a guess, then you didn't include personal income from those characters using the null space, then you divided it by a number that contains hundreds of alts. You then compared this to your total income. You didn't divide your income by the total number of characters (including the junk ones) across all of your accounts.

Any one of those factors alone would make your conclusion flawed, and altogether they make it utterly wrong.

Secondly, the number of ships involved means a large alliance can't make a doctrine out of a ship that is too expensive or too hard to make. Take the tempest fleet issue for example. The CFC originally tried to use it, but replacement quickly became impossible to keep up with as the production of them is limited. So they moved on to more common ships. This is why alliances fly cheaper and easier to produce ships. In most instances, it has nothing to do with income.

Gevlon said...

@Lucas: these approximations are irrelevant if the magnitude is important. I mean it doesn't matter if the CFC has 1T or 3T moon income (despite it's 500% error). It also doesn't matter if they have 40K people or just 10K with 4 nullsec alts.

Even if we take the best numbers (3T, 10K), we get 300M, which is laughed off by highsec miners and missioners.

Battleships are T1 ships. Carriers and dreads are T1 ships, they can be mass produced as long as there is tritanium in Jita.

Lucas Kell said...

Again you are taking made up figures, and simply dividing to make a per individual income. That's not how it works. Individuals still make their own income, and the alliance income works on top. You like to boil everything down to a single metric, but it's simply not possible with the information you have. You'd need to work out how much the alliance makes, how much each individual makes, then divide that by the number of players (not characters) to determine what the per member income of an alliance is. Without that information any theorising you do is about as good as flipping a coin to determine their income.

Carriers and dreads are T1 ships, yes, but ask any alliance and they will tell you that once you get beyond replacing more than a couple of hundred of them in a short period, it becomes impossible to keep supply up with demand. Prices would rise very quickly, and soon you'd pay paying way over the odds to keep yourself in ships.

A Megathron costs what, 150m or so to produce, and take 4 hours to manufacture. A carrier costs a billion or so, and takes over a week (12 days by default i think) to manufacture. Megathrons can also be produced by anyone, anywhere while carriers have to be constructed at a pos, and can't be made in high sec. There is an enormous difference between them.

Jim L said...

Why do you keep ignoring the personal wealth of everyone in the alliance?

Comparing your personal wealth/income to the wealth/income of an alliance is an apples to oranges comparison.

Gevlon said...

@Lucas: personal income is only relevant if the players are expected to cover their own losses, like BL. As long as they fly on reimbursements, the personal income is irrelevant for combat budget.

Capital production indeed can't cover hundreds of lost capitals. Want to know why? Because there is no demand to do it. No one will set up a capital production factory that is capable to because it's unused.

My point is that there isn't theoretical limit on capital production (like on faction ships), people could make more, they just can't sell them because too few people buy capitals.

Lucas Kell said...

Except you aren't comparing just a combat budget. You are comparing overall budget between a high sec miner and a null sec player. A miners combat budget would be 0, so 300m would be a massive improvement. If you were looking at a combat budget, comparing them to a high sec miner is irrelevant.
If you are looking at combat budget the only thing that matters is loss vs income. So in July goons lost 834b in ships according to eve kill. if you give that a massive margin of error, let's approximately double that and say 1600b in losses. So a per member loss of 160m/month. Now when you look at an income of 300m/member, the budget covers that fine. That doesn't even take into account insurance which would replace a significant portion of the ship anyway, and eve-kill takes into account modules, which SRP does not.

All of this though, again is meaningless, as it's all just theorising. The plain fact is though that alliances still hold hundreds of titans and thousands of capitals, and continue to replace hundreds of billions of isk per month without failing to pay their sov bills, so obviously they make enough.

The time and locations restriction on capital ships would prevent any quick replacement, thousands of capitals would need to be pre-built and ready to go, not to mention that you don;t build a capital directly from minerals, you have to construct all the parts first. And if you were producing on that scale, that means you'd need to have multiple researched copies of capital component BPOs.
Maybe you should try your hand at capital construction. It's not quite as simple as it seems on paper to produce them in larger quantities.

Gevlon said...

I think the pure fact that reimbursements needed is enough proof that most (=/= all) nullsec players are poor as dirt. Also, the famous CCP chart that shows that like 5% of all value generation is done in nullsec.

Lucas Kell said...

I plex 8 accounts a month, and still increase in total isk every month. Assuming that SRP means nullsec players are broke is truly a dumb jump to a conclusion. SRP simply means that CTA operations don;t cost the individual any isk, which allows bigger numbers. Many people would prefer not to put their own personal isk on the line to go off and defend a random corps tower, so SRP is a good way of the alliance balancing out the players so everyone gets defended.

I've not seen CCPs chart of this, so I can't comment on how the data is gathered, but if isk generation is directly that, when you gain isk for a bounty or a mission or what have you (ie isk is created and put into the economy), then that's understandable. And that doesn't mean that of all the isk made by players, only 5% is made in null. That would be misinterpreting the data.
Since nearly all of the high level minerals in the game come from null, as do most T2 production materials, and since super and titan production is null sec only, the majority of isk made from null activities isn't direct isk generation, it comes from shipping, trading and industry.

Babar said...

That last argument is the intellectual equivalent of "....but you're ugly!"

Only 5% of the production is done in null-sec because it's vastly easier, safer, more cost effective and easier to produce in high-sec and then import. Until CCP changes that (and they have started doing this with Odyssey) then this won't change.

Gevlon said...

NOT all high level minerals come from null, you can mine in WH.

The facts we know is: only small, "elite" organizations run without SRP and the alliance incomes are trivial compared to the alliance membership.

We also know that there are titans and SCs which are expensive in nullsec.

So we can say without doubt that there is huge wealth inbalance between null members. There are many poor and a few very rich.

What their average is (compared to highsec players) is unknown and cannot be known without CCP data, so further argument about it is stupid.

Lucas Kell said...

I didn't say all, I said most.

We know that alliances stay in business and have done for years. So they can't be hemorrhaging isk.
You can't say anything about any wealth imbalance, since you haven't got the info to make that assumption. Between isk and assets I'm in no way poor, yet I know that I'm not among the top earners in my corp, let alone my alliance. Since SRP pays for ships, and most alliances will do shipping for you, all an individual has to do is rat/mine/manufacture in null, then contract it, then sell it in high. Not to mention that with alliance buy programs, you can plex an account purely from running PI. You definitely can't claim "without a doubt" when you have absolutely no facts on the matter.

"further argument about it is stupid"??
Surely then, posting about it in the first place was stupid? You chose to make massive assumptions and chose to jump to conclusions without having any facts. Nobody forced you to do that.
The only fact that still remains is you claimed that null sec alliances are poor, yet they still continue to exist, and most continue to grow. If they were just losing isk hand over fist, then they wouldn't exist. It's quite literally that simple.

Lucas Kell said...

Oh, and before I forget. WH ore needs to be shipped out as ore or refined at a POS with massive losses. That's not usually the best way to make isk in a WH, so it's unlikely to be more than a fraction of the amount.

Anonymous said...

you still assume that everyone plays this game for the sake of the isk grind. but isk and titans aren't that desirable for most players, neither are supers. this is just you, who fell for the ccp.propaganda. telling that a titan is sooooooooo superduper, and that everybody should play eve in order to obtain one - most of us came down to earth after a few weeks in eve.

many nullsec.alliance players are poor, because there is no need for them to grind more isk than needed - not because they are stupid, or not knowledged enough on how to set up a market order.

"Just check any of my post republished on EN24. Hundreds of comments throwing insults and hate without any kind of argument. Why?"

you harvest what you sow.

It is ok that you think that eve is a game about numbers, it is ok that you play it that way.
btw, it's totally cool that you measure your blogs success by numbers.
yes, your quantity is awesome, it really is.

have you ever asked riverini why he is publishing you?

Behnid Arcani said...

@ Lucas Kell

"So [the alliances] can't be hemorrhaging ISK."

But Goonswarm has had a drastic drop in it's moon mineral income. You need look no further than The Mittani's own site for that information. This was the reason for the war in Fountain.

That particular post even gave a rough value of each moon... which equated to about what I make in my 30mins a day high-sec trading.

I'm also curious as to what you're doing with 8 PLEXed accounts, and I wonder how many of those alts are in high sec. Can you expand on that?

Also, is that normal for the average null-sec player? Honestly curious... I've heard that null-sec players are wealthy beyond belief, but I've often wondered what their daily life is to get that wealth.

Lucas Kell said...

@Behnid Arcani
They did, but they were still able to stay afloat, just need more cash to run peacetime SRP and "events". And I'm not just talking goons. Other alliances that haven't been sitting on tech moons for years seem to be doing fine. If they were losing cash, they'd stop existing after a while. and sure, high sec trading will always be the best way of making cash, but moons are a relatively passive way to make income, that can be done alongside trading. Not to mention that moons aren't the only source of income for an alliance. Tax is generally taken too in most alliances.

4 of my accounts are for my nullsec characters, 2 are accounts for high sec trade, high sec industry and some missioning/exploring alts and whatnot. 2 accounts are "enrolled in other alliances" should we say. (Active)Character wise I'm about 50/50 split between high and null (There's obviously alts I created but never move so I don't count them).

There are people I know that run up to 20 account simultaneously to mine with in null. Since the rocks are MUCH bigger in null, you can quite easily get all your guys mining, with a single alt hauling, and can make huge amounts of isk. I make about a half of mine in null. If I ever get off my fat ass and get my industry in to full swing again I'll be making a bit more in high sec, but will generally be shipping the high end minerals from null.

Anonymous said...

Poetic Stanziel just published a ton of numbers, you should look at those, they will provide you with data

Behnid Arcani said...

@ Lucas Kell

So... you run 4 retrievers on the other screen?

Cheap shot aside, from what you tell me, as 1 player you make double what a moon brings in, just to keep your accounts running.

Are you an average null-sec player? How much time a month do you spend mining vs. PvPing? As a FW pilot, the split between trader time and PvP is about 20% Trading to 80% Fighting... with the caveat that some of my income comes out of the LP store.