Greedy Goblin

Thursday, August 15, 2013

Attention, pets!

Two things happened recently that shown the sorry state of pets: Razor lost a capital fleet and Tribal Band lost its regions. Both happened because of them being pets of GSF and TEST respectively. They both built up something (capital fleet and Sov infrastructure) which they couldn't hope to defend, but they assumed that their masters will protect it for them. When the masters were unable or unwilling to do so, they lost their investments without hope.

Had they been neutrals, they would have been more cautious. Medium sized alliances don't move 60 capitals casually, nor they build stations, knowing that they can be evicted any time. Had they been merged with their masters, they could influence the decision or at least know it and didn't act on assumptions.

What is important to learn from these losses is that being a pet is not the choice of the master (it's obviously not the choice of the pet). I mean that no matter how much GSF and TEST tried to be fair and respectful, they couldn't turn their pets into equal allies. Similarly, no matter how big fan I am of animal rights and how much I love dogs, I can't turn my pet dog an equal human family member. Being a pet or not depends only on an objective question: "are you significantly weaker than your blue?".

Why do I write this, and why under this title? Because I have good news for pets. Formerly there were only two ways of stopping being pets: merging, therefore formalizing the situation and gaining equal line member rights, obviously at the cost of most pet leaders losing their status and get themselves demoted into line members. The other way is unbluing which will make you independent actor by definition (and likely eaten instantly by enemies who were held back by blues).

However as I was thinking about my fleetbear corp, I realized how can one become an equal ally from pet status. Pets are "separate but equal", actually separate but weaker. Razor and Tribe had everything that GSF and TEST had but were weaker in every aspect: less small gang and fleet members, less income, less supers, less FCs, less everything. The solution is selecting one aspect of the game and focus all efforts on this aspect, becoming stronger in this one aspect than the master. Imagine that Razor would have 2/3 of the dreadnoughts of CFC. While still would be unable to stand alone, GSF leadership would have to consult with them before all decisions due to their inability to do fleet action without Razor. Similarly, if the Razor would be in trouble alone, GSF would be forced to save it, as its failcascade would be a devastating loss to the CFC capital fleet. The master-pet relation is "I need you and you don't need me, but has some use of me". Being stronger in one aspect would turn it into an "I need you and you need me" equal relationship.

So the solution to pethood is picking one field and be the best in it. If you happen to pick stratop fleet participation or financial backbone, I gladly help you to rise up from pet state. Yes, this offer stands for Goon pets too, I'm just as a pragmatist as The Mittani, who (just as I predicted) started a carebearing program. I don't like Goons more than the Goons like renters, but we have something in common: we like losing even less.

PS: Xander Phoena made an interview with me.


Babar said...

Just to clarify some erros here: Razor has always been one of the most independent CFC alliances. They pretty much killed IRC all by themselves, there were no CFC deployments, only Razor doing their own thing. They have their own doctrines, though of course they also use CFC doctrines. And when BL counter-dropped them, they didn't batphone until their capfleet was already pretty much dead. They didn't get help because they didn't ask for it, not because CFC didn't care or because they are "pets". Secondly, Razor is not a medium sized alliance. At almost 3760 members, they are the third biggest alliance in the game, if you discount renter alliances.

As for your point, even though we disagree fundamentally on the whole pet status thing, is not a bad one. However, how would you make an alliance (let's say Razor since you already wrote so much about them) the best at a field? How can Razor get 2/3 of all caps in CFC? How can they become the wealthiest alliance? Since you're calling yourself pragmatic, can you lay out a bit on how an alliance could accomplish something like this?

Gevlon said...

How can they get there: by focusing their efforts. It means that they become even weaker in the other fields. They measure their members according to this one goal, kick the underperformers (even if they are great in other fields) and recruit members of this goal.

Anonymous said...

Razor and Tribe had everything that GSF and TEST had but were weaker in every aspect: less small gang and fleet members, less income, less supers, less FCs, less everything.

funny enough, i've been fighting goons and their allies for 7 years now. and usually the ones that fought their fights for them, the ones that earned at least some respect where Razor. So no i don't think Razor is weaker, i believe Razor enjoys being a Pet.

Lucas Kell said...

This is like a whole new level of stupid. Clearly just another attempt to be insulting rather than a serious article. You are essentially saying that razor should guarantee they are completely defenseless by only focusing on a single element of combat so that they are essentially a part of GSF under a different name. If they did that, they may as well merge, since they'd need 24/7 support.

Again this is all based on the WRONG idea that these alliances are pets, and that GSF doesn't need them. Without the other alliances in the CFC, GSF would not have won fountain. It's as simple as that. They form a coalitions because that makes them stronger and able to, as a group, hold a larger area. This idea of pets you need to get out of your head. It's a term that was made up as a propaganda piece to try to split down the coalition, but it failed, as anyone in the coalition knows the actual facts of the situation.

Razor's battle against BL was their battle. It wasn't that they were refused CFC support, they just didn't require it. If they wanted CFC support, they would have had CFC support, but they didn't.

A battle being lost doesn't mean anything alone. You won't win every battle, and you have to accept that. Razor did. BL are a formidable enemy, and losing a battle to them is not a shameful thing. That said, Razor had enough supercaps on their own, that had they wanted to, they could have deployed against BL and evened the battle considerably, but between NC. and PL, there were an additional ~150 supers waiting to drop as soon as razor committed them, so razor chose to cut the losses and live with it.

Anonymous said...

> Imagine that Razor would have 2/3 of the dreadnoughts of CFC. While still would be unable to stand alone, GSF leadership would have to consult with them before all decisions due to their inability to do fleet action without Razor.

That's exactly what Element 115. tried to do with TEST. Didn't protect them from getting kicked.

mynnna said...

"Yes, this offer stands for Goon pets too, I'm just as a pragmatist as The Mittani, who (just as I predicted) started a carebearing program."

Except for the parts where, you know, reality. The parts where they don't expect recognition or to be lauded for and fawned over for their contributions, and the part where we wouldn't anyway. The part where they'll continue paying week after week after week, long past the point where even your most ardent of carebears would stop.

But other than that, exactly as you predicted!

Gevlon said...

@Mynnna: you will give them recognition. You now boldly name your rental programme "PBLRD" and announce it as "experimenting with terrible pubbies". But your members are mad about it for a good reason.

They know that if they don't come and your coffers run empty, you will flip again. Now you just banned scamming them. Later you'll ban badmouthing them. Finally you will be begging them on your knees, because without ISK there is no SRP and without SRP there is no swarm.

Hint: you can skip the begging part if you start picking "carebears" selectively, making up stories how they are "good" carebears while the rest are still "terrible pubbies".

If you want to save your little empire from the position of "bankruptcy or begging to carebears" - as I said - I'm a pragmatist and gladly help.

Lucas Kell said...

Nobody is worried about the CFC coffers running dry, and even if it were the case, the swarm would exist without SRP. You seem to the think the goons require the promise of SRP to log in. That's just not the case. Most of them play for fun, and to hear SUAS singing (his Hey Jude is legendary by the way), and if having a bunch of empty space used by some corps that want to pay for it helps fund that fun, then so be it. You also seem to think that without renters immediately jumping on board, the CFC won't stay afloat, also not the case. It's simply the realisation that a large amount of isk can be generated from empty space that's already held is a pretty good motivator. Bankruptcy won't ever be an issue for us, that's TESTs area of expertise.

Gevlon, your "help" of TEST involved you spewing out a lot of terrible ideas, giving them a tiny amount isk, then screaming about how they suck and leaving. How exactly would that help the CFC? The CFC is chilling back from a swiftly victorious war, about to make trillions in ice profiteering, before settling back into some good old fashioned death dealing.

Gevlon said...

Yes, the GSF is so rich that they had to give up one of their core ideas to get renters. It smells desperation.

Lucas Kell said...

Much like when we were "so poor" we had to field Caracals, you guys jumping to conclusions is pretty funny. The fact is, the CFC owns a lot of space that is sitting idle, as we don't have the member numbers to cover it. After seeing how much rental income can provide, sitting idly on that empty space when it could be passively generating isk is just not logical. For that reason GSF chose to start renting. You can read between the lines and jump to whatever conclusions you like, but it's literally that simple.

At the end of the day it all boils down to this: You don't like goons, and the idea that they are going to be making yet more isk upsets you. For this, you feel the need to rationalise their isk making by claiming they are weak and that's why they are doing it.

There there, it'll all be ok. *hug*

Invictus13307 said...

Does the GSF actually have core ideas? My (outsider) impression is that they don't -- everything is permitted that doesn't screw over blues. Just that some ideas are more distasteful than others.

Babar said...

Didn't you just call The Mittani a pragmatic? Is he now suddenly an idealist instead?

There's a big difference between saying we need to think about future income, and that renting is worth a pilot program, and being literally bankrupt and then begging for donations like your former alliance. CFC has to think years ahead, there's a huge weapon race going on against PL/NC, and if we need to incorporate renters to ensure survival, then so be it. That's not the same as a "donation board" or a donation driven economy that you are advocating though. The donation idea has never been proven to be sustainable and predictable, and has been used many times before (by GSF no less!)

How would you help CFC if you were to join wrt financials? The donation board will never be used in CFC unless times are truly dire, and every other idea you've had has been so full of problems they don't even work in theory. What exactly can you offer any alliance?

mynnna said...

I think we'll let the results speak for themselves.

I also think that you'll never find us welcoming of your "help".