Tuesday, July 30, 2013

"Separate but equal"

Why to resist CFC? Why to lose Fountain when all we had to do is to bow to Mittens and keep it as CFC members? Why throw away HBC and pick up the "rebel" gimmick?

There are several alliances in the CFC. Formally they are equal. No one calls them pets inside. But, despite shared jabber, mumble and fleets, they are in separate alliances. "Separate but equal" was the legal justification of the Jim Crow laws which prescribed separate "white" and "colored" rail cars, restaurants, barber shops, pubs, schools, drinking fountains and practically all places. Legally they were equal, practically very much not. The "colored" versions were always worse, even when there were attempts to provide equal services. The reason for that is simple: the white users were generally of higher status, and they could leverage this for better services. For example an "only white" restaurant could charge higher on average, therefore hire more staff, providing better services than a "colored", even when the individual customers had equal requests and money. This was the basis of the ruling overturning "separate but equal" stating that separation necessarily lead to inferior services to colored.

Even if there are honest attempts from CFC leadership to keep them equal, the pets get inferior treatment, due to the important figures mostly being Goons, and they naturally look after their people, while pets don't get this attention. However I doubt if there are even attempts. From time to time we here this or that alliance kicked from CFC for "underperformance". However Goonwaffe members don't even have to comply to formal standards. The position of the line Goon is safe without doing anything, by his "birthright" of coming from SA. On the other hand if a pet doesn't perform properly, he is punished. GSF had half as many troops to 6VDT than TEST, despite equal size. Will anyone has to fear consequences of this pathetic performance?

This creates and inequity between the line members of the core group and the pets. The legendary line was "you don't talk back to -A-", instead of "you don't talk back to Makalu". Makalu was a leader who had reasons to demand respect. But a line -A- was just as much an F1-basher as a line "pet". Yet, he was treated better, just like white men over "colored".

The CFC is in the state of the pre-emancipation society of institutionalized racism. There are "white" Goons and "colored" others. This is why TEST broke away from Goon pet state and kept fighting alone against the 3x bigger CFC. Being chased to Esoteria or Impass is better than being a pet.

It was asked if Tribe is a TEST pet? Since Tribe clearly cannot defend itself without TEST or from TEST, it holds its land only at the will of TEST. So Tribe had to do its best protecting TEST space, while cannot automatically expect the same. In this sense, yes, Tribe is a pet. The fact that TEST members and leaders never purposefully wronged them doesn't change that. Human rights needs to be guaranteed by systems and not the goodness of the power holders. If you read TEST forums, you will find a suggestion from me to offer them alliance merge, exactly to stop this situation and make them one with us, change the "separate but equal" into "mixed". Hell, I changed my forum signature to "Can we merge with TRIBE? We already fight as one, let's be one!"

If you are a member of a stable coalition (as opposed to a temporary cooperation of separate entities, like BL and PL at Asakai), and the leadership isn't from your group, you are a pet. Maybe a well-treated one, but still a pet. They might even "jokingly" use the N-word or other racist/sexist slurs on you. It is not funny. Not at all.

45 comments:

Anonymous said...

g00ns literally have a corp called "Involuntary Sub-Saharan Crowdsourcing".

U have hit the proberbial nail on the head my friend.

Draghkar said...

Were you ever actually a part of TEST while they were in the CFC or are you simply reaching this conclusion based upon second or third hand accounts of the horrible oppression at the hands of "the goonies" that TEST was forced to endure?

Speaking as one of the principle advocates for the CFC alliances within the goonswarm directorate, I go out of my way to not only insure that our allies are effective organizations when it comes to wartime operations but also also that they are given direct input into every single major decision that the coalition is making. There isn't a war that is fought or a policy enacted that leadership of every single CFC alliance is not consulted on.

As one of a small handful of individuals who has been privy to every major diplomatic communication with TEST and Goonswarm, going all the way back to the very beginning of that relationship, I can safely say that TEST possessed near a unlimited independence of action. The only time there was ever serious friction was when TEST elected to ally themselves with groups who had very recently tried to lay siege to the space owned by Goonswarm, an action which just about any alliance would find intolerable in any group they viewed as allied to them given a similar situation.

The oft repeated phrase that Goonswarm saw TEST as a "little brother" is very much an accurate one. Goonswarm saw so much of themselves in the early TEST that we bent over backwards accommodate their every desire; disproportianly high levels of tech moons were awarded as spoils to them smply because we knew they had a whole lot of players to provide reimbursements for. This narrative of TEST being maliciously shacked to the yoke Goon Will is largely a fabrication of the Post-HBC formation TEST, created to explain to their line membership how they could justify the abandonment of a group they had so much shared history with.

I challenge you to provide an instance of this so called oppression that TEST was subjected to during their time in the CFC because as someone who was actually a direct conduit for that relationship, I'm simply at a loss.

Gevlon said...

@Draghkar: you are funny. You challenge me for proof of direct oppression while you provide it 6 lines above it: "Goonswarm saw TEST as a "little brother" is very much an accurate one."

Hint: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man%27s_Burden

Anonymous said...

Not only is it stupid to compare internet spaceship game politics to racism and jim crow laws, it's pretty offensive.

I don't know if you realize this, but jim crow was a real thing that caused a lot of real suffering and injustice. It is not in any way acceptable to use it as an analogy for your internet spaceship agenda.

You are of course free to talk all you want about how the cfc alliances are pets, or whatever. This is not the way to go about it. You should be ashamed of yourself.

That is all.

Gevlon said...

Sure, we can't learn from history, since history books are full of dead people and it's offensive to them.

Idiot.

Anonymous said...

For someone who I'm pretty sure, has never had to suffer any discrimination because of his gender, color of his skin, sexual identity, religion or nationality, you sure keep trying hard to play the racist card. (If I'm mistaken, and you're oppressed on a daily basis, enlighten us and I'll apologize)

So how about you read some more wikipedia and tell us what you find out, about feeling all black and oppressed by the man, even if you're white?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance might help

Gevlon said...

Last anonymous: this is outright racism. I'm not allowed to talk about things because I'm white.

You are a racist idiot.

Draghkar said...

I'm really not understanding why you're so fixated on trying to portray TEST and the member various alliances of the CFC as some kind of oppressed racial minority group. It's absurdly disingenuous and laughably hyperbolic to equate space ship politics and the incredibly sordid and shameful history of racism.

As for how you are equating paternalistic feelings toward a newer group with an incredibly similar "out of game" origins and Eurocentric cultural imperialism, you are again going to need to enlighten me. We never saw TEST as a "noble savage" which needed to be civilized and forced to adapt to our culture, the cultural similarities already existed and indeed, were the very basis of our relationship.

Gevlon said...

"It's absurdly disingenuous and laughably hyperbolic to equate space ship politics and the incredibly sordid and shameful history of racism."
Translation: "EVE is a game, so doing bad things here is OK as it's just a game"

It is a game, and I did not think you are racist person IRL. I say that the Goonswarm is a "space-racist" organization where players roleplay being the "master race", and treat others as savages needed to be oppressed for their own good. Others roleplay being a pirate or suicide terrorist without being evil IRL.

If you saw TEST as brothers, why didn't you offer membership to Dreddit (the corp) in GSF (the alliance)? Why don't you offer alliance merges to CFC alliances? Everything would be simpler management-wise.



Babar said...

If you want to do analogies to real life, then are all NATO members USA pets? The whole alliance is built around the US, so wouldn't that be the case?

You cannot compare racism in the real world with politics in Eve. First of all, it's simply intellectually dishonest. Racism provokes a lot of feelings if you will, and what you're basically doing is saying something is racism, then saying why racism is bad, therefor whatever you compared to it is bad. This only works if the comparison is valid, which it is not.

If you are "colored", and live in a society where "colored" people are discriminated against, you're screwed. You cannot change your race, and you most likely cannot change the society. You also cannot just immigrate to any country that treats you better. You are stuck. In Eve, you are free to change corp, alliance or even don't join any at all. You can also quit the game if you want. Since everything is done voluntarily, nothing stops you from doing whatever you want. The whole basis for your comparison is flawed, and thus your whole blog post is a big mess.

" This is why TEST broke away from Goon pet state and kept fighting alone against the 3x bigger CFC. Being chased to Esoteria or Impass is better than being a pet." This is rewriting history if I ever saw it. Test was the "GSF of HBC", and they didn't leave HBC until control was given to Sort Dragon. You make it sound like they broke off and then immediately started fighting someone 3x times their size. And even that number is blatantly false, since N3ST forces combined are pretty much the same size as CFC. (And when Test joins another coalition as a "pet", then I guess the last part of your quote will be false as well).

Anonymous said...

You're comparing apples and Holocaust here.

It is wrongful to discriminate against people on the grounds of factors that are outside of their control. Racism, sexism, ageism and LGBT discrimination are bad because people can't freely determine their race, ethnicity, gender, age or sexual orientation.

On other hand, pretty much anyone can become a Goon. All it takes is ten dollars, a modicum of effort, basic literacy, an attention span greater than a couple of moments and an ability to participate in conversations on topics other than EVE Online without constantly revealing oneself as a horrible antagonistic shitlord.

That is why Goons 'discriminate' against "pubbies": the barrier of entry is so low that anyone who can't pass it deserves all the contempt in the world.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, you're white. And that's why you can't see that your talk about racism in a space game, because someone won't share their alliance with you, is very offensive to the real racism happening.

So yeah, you're not allowed to use the term racism for an internet game, not even for peoples relationships to each other in an internet game.

Because racism is, when you're afraid to walk down the street at night, because somebody might shoot you dead without any legal consequences, as long as he claims feeling endangered by you.

Does that clear things up?

Lucas Kell said...

another article with absoultely no evidence put together from guesswork. Shocking.

Please Gevlon, find evidence and actually understand subject matter before you post about things. This is wrong from start to finish and it's not hard to find out info abotu what you are talking about. Take for example this: "GSF had half as many troops to 6VDT than TEST, despite equal size"
Anyone with access to dotlan (so everyone) could tell you that there's 3000 less members in GSF than test for starters, so equal size? Not quite.

At the end of the day the only accurate part of this is that GSF can't get kicked for underperformance. That doesn't mean they don't have to perform, they provide regular updates to performance and push their corps if that performance drops. Obviously the strongest member of a coalition can't just leave, as it would cause massive logistics issues for the rest of the coalition. That said, Alliances don't get kicked from the coalition lightly. It has to be shown that they are putting long term strain on the other alliances without any attempts to correct issues.

I understand, you are TEST so you are heavily biased, but if you are going to post on a subject and can;t do it without filling it entirely with biased guesswork, don't bother posting it. You've been in TEST 5 minutes and claim to know everything about the inner workings of GSF and TEST. And you aren't even a director.

Draghkar said...

B0RT joining Goonswarm Federation was something that was being talked about but their leadership council at the time elected to form an alliance instead.

As for other CFC alliances being merged into Goonswarm as corporations that has already happened or at least been offered on a number of occasions. The alliance Wildly Inappropiate was converted into a corporation which is now one of the largest within Goonswarm and the offer of joining GSF as a member corporation was made to AIF prior to their departure from the CFC, in that case the offer was declined but it was made none the less.

While converting alliances down to corporations does make things far simpler logistically it runs the risk of destroying existing identities since every corporation within an alliance is forced to effectively disband in order to all join a single corporation. While this is a non-issue for some alliances since there exists a homogenous alliance wide culture, many alliances operate in a structure more akin to a confederation of corporations with every corporation intensely valuing their own unique history and culture. For the most part it is not because we would not permit an alliance to join GSF as a corporation but rather there is a strong opposition on the part of the other CFC alliances not to do it.

Gevlon said...

@Babar: NATO is a defensive organization. Europeans doesn't need to deploy into offensive American campaigns.

And the very point is that you CAN'T change your corp to Goonwaffe, via in-game things. You must "born" as a Goon, by spending IRL time on that horrible forum.

@Anonymous: it was already clear, you are a racist idiot.

@Lucas Kell: "That doesn't mean they don't have to perform" and who judges them?

You and me are equal and need to perform equally. Your performance is judged by me. My performance is judged by me. Like it?

@Draghkar: In GSF every corp below Bat country has less than 200 members.

On what basis you demand other alliances to merge their corps instead of taking all the corps?

Lucas Kell said...

They publicly judge their own performance. There is no method of providing and independent performance judge as the nature of EVE would not make it possible. The way they show their own performance publicly though provides a levels of independence to it.

I find it amazing that you are completely unable to see how a coalition like the CFC works. It's exactly the same as any other coalition in game or out of it. Are GSF the leaders of the coalition, Yes. Are they the strongest members of the coalition, Yes. Could they survive without the rest of the coalition, No. So why do you think they would put that at risk to allow their corps to underperform?

We don't need to argue about the CFC. We know how it works, you should know how it works as it's pretty transparent. The only thing to argue about here is why you think you don;t need to provide any evidence to back your words and can come out with any nonsense you like, while to counter your argument you expect us to get legally countersigned documents.

The long and short of it is, we are in the CFC, so we have first hand knowledge of the way it works. You are in TEST and haven't been in the game that long, so you have no knowledge of how the CFC works, and an obvious bias to what you write. Of course you are going to claim that all other alliances in the CFC are pets. If you didn't you'd be "being nice" to the CFC, and I'm sure TEST frown upon that. That doesn't make anything you say even remotely correct though.

Draghkar said...

Almost every single corp below Bat Country isn't an actual "member corp" but an alt corp of some member or small group of members within the alliance, used for things that require corp roles to manipulate POS: things like moon mining, super cap building and wormhole operations are the common reasons for them.

As for why we don't take in every single corporation, it would be impossible to accurately balance the needs of what could easily turn into 100s of corporations all competing individually for the attentions of the alliance directorate. It would create nothing short of a logistical and beaucratic nightmare. Every single corporation in Goonswarm is large in order to minimize how many competing "voices" are required to be engaged in every single discussion. It's a philosophy similar to that which is used to invite new alliances to the CFC, compare the size of an alliance in our coalition compared to say N3 or Dinner Squad.

Oska Rus said...

There are no pets in wormhole. ;-)

Anonymous said...

So, TEST left Goons to be their own thing yet when Goons invade their space, they cannot defend it without NC. or N3's huge back support? That would make TEST pet's of NC. and N3 which completely nullifies your argument.

Goons did not need much of any external support to take Fountain, they happened to come across another alliance (BL) that was trying to invade and simply pay them off not to and to fight accordingly against TEST. Fights that included TEST stuff dying they engaged in and aside from that, they shot each other.

Anonymous said...

Pets, coloreds, or whatever, so long as our relationship with our allies generates this quality of rage/comedy, then we must be doing something right.

Gevlon said...

@Draghkar: Is there an objective size criteria "you must be 189+ to be a corp (and not personal alt corp)"? If so and applies to everyone with no exceptions, allowing every pet to join on equal terms, I'm wrong.

If it's "kinda" this way, I'm right.

@Anonymous: no, it does NOT nullify my argument. TEST WAS a PL pet in HBC and people weren't happy about it.

TEST could hold Fountain by becoming an N3 pet, doing everything as told. They had attempts to turn us into pets.

Booda gave the middle finger, formed for an USTZ timer and went down in flames instead of accepting NC. pethood.

Anonymous said...

Why would TRIBE want to merge with TEST? What would the tangible advantage to giving up their independence be?

The leadership of a merged TEST+TRIBE alliance would almost certainly be all-TEST (and quickly become so if it doesn't start out that way) and TRIBE would run the risk of getting dragged down by a failure of TEST to defend Delve - what would they get in return?

In its current position TRIBE has several options - they can stay close to TEST (leveraging the reputation for being the most faithful of allies that TRIBE leadership worked hard and took big risks to achieve), they can shift allegiance towards NCdot (and eventually take part in the war against TEST), they can look south for allies (remember their Paragon Soul holdings), or they could come to an arrangement with the goons if the CFC decides to push beyond Fountain.

You don't have to be a militarily powerful nation in order to enjoy a high degree of independence - you just have to have more than one option available to you. Merging with TEST would be putting all their eggs into one basket and being forever confined to being untermenschen just as most test corporations (that are not dreddit or founded) are.

Babar said...

Not going to bother trying to argue the blog post anymore, since it seems pretty pointless at this point. However, another factual error:
"TEST could hold Fountain by becoming an N3 pet, doing everything as told. They had attempts to turn us into pets.

Booda gave the middle finger, formed for an USTZ timer and went down in flames instead of accepting NC. pethood."
This is obviously wrong. Fountain was already burning at this point, and losing it was inevitable. In fact, Test did do what N3 wanted, which is time everything for AUTZ. So even when Test did everything they were told, they failed to hold Fountain. The last battle was pointless, and everyone knew it, even Test leadership.

Ephemeron said...

You must "born" as a Goon, by spending IRL time on that horrible forum.

That's like saying that you must be "born" as a WoW raider by spending time and money enchanting/gemming your gear and not standing in fire, so anyone who kicks you out is a fun-hating Stalinist guilty of literal apartheid.

Or, to use a RL example, sitting in front of the TV in nothing but a pizza-and-beer-stained T-shirt and complaining how "Da Man" keeps you down by cruelly forcing you to spend IRL time acquiring marketable skills and presentable appearance, instead of showering you with love and money that you are entitled to by the virtue of being a unique snowflake.

Joining an internet forum and talking to people for a while is something that practically anyone is capable of doing.

Anonymous said...

Re: Corporations in Goonswarm.

I could write a whole thing about the different corporations in Goonswarm, but it would be long and boring and more than a little inaccurate so here's a summary.

Most corporations in GSF had discrete cultures and identities before joining goonswarm version whatever.

Some, like MerchI, OEG, and Eighty Joule Brewery come from out of game communities that existed before EVE, just like goons or dredditors.

Some are primarily non-english speakers, like Kriegsmarinewerft (German), Kernel of War(French), or NED-Clan (Dutch)

Thunderwaffe is a LGBT-friendly corporation, unlike Goonwaffe which is violently homophobic in addition to being racist.

Black Omega Security used to be goonfleet's patrons and mentors back in the days when goons qualified as pets.

The remaining corps are either cool dudes that goons stole from other alliances, alt corps for various business ventures that require roles, or long dead legacy corps that are kept around for sentimental reasons (Long Live DPG!)

It should be noted that many of the French and Russians in GSF today came from Red Alliance and Tau Ceti Federation. Together with Goonswarm, the three alliances once formed the Red Swarm Federation, an old school coalition in which the goons were undeniably the junior member.

That was still longer than I would have liked, but barely scratched the surface. There's a lot of history in Goonswarm, the CFC, TEST, and all of EVE. Go poke around dotlan or the various public and private wikis if you want to kill some time and maybe learn a thing or two. I swear, kids these days ain't gotta clue.

Jason Duril said...

Gevlon, you're an idiot.

GoonWaffe is a corp made for Goons, a term used for members of the Something Awful community.

In order to be part of a community, you need to participate in it. If you don't want to, why would you want to join GoonWaffe then? That's just retarded.

It's the same reason Dreddit recruits from the Reddit forums, because they're meant as a corp for the members of the Reddit community.

I personally can't stand Reddit (r/mensrights is why the stereotype of the Redditer exists), and as such, I would have no interest joining a corp filled with Reddit community members.

Does this logic somehow escape you?

Huey Newton said...

Hey, so, just to recap.

Dreddit were offered to join Goonswarm, long ago, repeatedly, amidst cries of "Why aren't these guys in the alliance yet?". There was a standing offer for them to join. They instead decided to make their own. Then Goonswarm helped them take all the space they own(ed lol), gave them way more moons that they would have 'deserved' based off their performance, and remained allied with them until they started accumulating all the dregs left over from its previous conquests. This somehow translates into a "white man's burden" scenario because space-racism.

Did I get that roughly right? I think I did.

Gevlon said...

@Jason Duril: it wasn't a problem if GoonWaffe would be just one of the equal corps of an alliance and not the only one that has to adhere no performance standards and give most of the leaders.

@Huey Newton: yes, that happened way before The Mittani, back when Goons were in rifters. I don't say that the line goons were naturally evil (that would be space-racism itself), I'm saying that the current empire of The Mittani is space-racist.

Babar said...

What? Dreddit was formed in February 2010, The Mittani because CEO in July the same year. At this point, Goonswarm had already defeated BoB, the rifter swarm was years before. Dreddit became allied with Goons basically from the start, a few months with Darius and then Mittani as Goonwaffe CEO. How can you continue to spew out factually wrong things, then simply ignore when you are being called out on it?

Gevlon said...

@Babar: I don't know the history well, neither I care. Again: I don't doubt that Goons weren't always like this.

But they are like this now.

Anonymous said...

The term you are so desperately looking for is space-sectarian. To which the whole of Eve will no doubt shrug. Please do keep the comedy up, it's quite amusing.

Lucas Kell said...

@Gevlon: "I don't know the history well, neither I care"
And this is exactly why people tell you not to comment on these matters. You don't know, you have no desire to know, yet you feel somehow your opinion is required?

If you want to take the time to understand and to gather facts then make a post based on your opinions in view of those facts, then you'd get a lot better responses. All the time you make kee-jerk reaction posts on subjectes you don't understand (most of EVE it seems) you will get people arguing against you. And they will almost always be right.

Anonymous said...

"They might even "jokingly" use the N-word or other racist/sexist slurs on you. It is not funny. Not at all."

Right, because TEST wouldn't use racist/sexist slurs at all.

I'm not sure what your point it - different people choose to be in different corps, these corps treat each other differently, and this is somehow equivalent to racism/apartheid how?

No one chose to be black or white in Jim Crow south.

Anonymous said...

It goes further than that. If you haven't noticed, the CFC's most recent pet is actually named "I whip my slaves back and forth".

Phelps said...

If you want to do analogies to real life, then are all NATO members USA pets? The whole alliance is built around the US, so wouldn't that be the case?

As an American, I can say yes, we certainly think of them that way.

Anonymous said...

So is Dreddit racist too for requiring people to post for 3 months on reddit.com (The worst site on the internet) to join? I want you to explain why not if you insist that Goons are racist for this same reason. Thanks in advance.

Gevlon said...

Because TEST has no pets (maybe TRIBE can count that, but even that's not official), so Dreddit being whatever is irrelevant.

There wouldn't be any problem if Goons would stand alone with whatever membership requests. The problem is CFC with its satellite-pets.

Anonymous said...

Well, I am from a Non-US NATO member state.

And yes: we are US-Pets!

Our leaders are occasionally disagreeing with US politics but usually don't act that way for fear of angering the US.

Lucas Kell said...

@Gevlon: "Because TEST has no pets (maybe TRIBE can count that, but even that's not official), so Dreddit being whatever is irrelevant.

There wouldn't be any problem if Goons would stand alone with whatever membership requests. The problem is CFC with its satellite-pets."

This whole thing here, makes absolutely no sense. This is you trying to rescue any shred of dignity by jamming it in wherever it fits. But it doesn't fit, because the whole subject is a load of propaganda.
Goons selecting members from SA forums has nothing to do with the CFC or choice of allies. It's EXACTLY the same as TEST recruiting from reddit. and neither point has anything to do with goons standing alone. Of course they couldn't stand alone against TEST/TRIBE/N3/NC./PL, but thenh thats why they formed a coalition of alliances with similar beliefs.

Anonymous said...

There is so much bad in this article, I am just going to concentrate on one paragraph.


Even if there are honest attempts from CFC leadership to keep them equal, the pets get inferior treatment

Can you provide even the slightest amount of evidence for this? All members as far as I can see have access to the same services, the same reimbursement programs, the same newbie welfare programs and the same change to make a career for themselves. They are in no way seen to be inferior.

, due to the important figures mostly being Goons, and they naturally look after their people, while pets don't get this attention.


Again, evidence? Please provide some. All people in the CFC are looked after the same. They all have access to the same opportunities and services. Please note, there are not "separate but equal" opportunities or services, they are the the exact same ones. Goons go to great pains to ensure this happens to guarantee a cohesive organisation.

However I doubt if there are even attempts. From time to time we here this or that alliance kicked from CFC for "underperformance".

Purges at an alliance level happen for cultural reasons. Routinely failing to turn up for strat ops leads to you being dead weight. Any rational organization will remove under performing members. Often the underperformers are the leaders who fail to get the line members into the fight. Those who do perform within a purged alliance always find their way into another CFC alliance if they want to

However Goonwaffe members don't even have to comply to formal standards.

They do. Goonwaffe and GSF members and directors are purged on a regular basis, with extreme prejudiced for being douch canoes, or failing to turn up for strat ops.

The position of the line Goon is safe without doing anything,

It's really not.


by his "birthright" of coming from SA.

Birthright is a membership requirement, not a guarantee of having a home in GSF. Being on the SA forums doesn't keep you in the alliance for doing nothing.

On the other hand if a pet doesn't perform properly, he is punished.

Anyone in the coalition not performing is purged. Why is this bad?

GSF had half as many troops to 6VDT than TEST, despite equal size. Will anyone has to fear consequences of this pathetic performance?

So number of troops at a particular battle equals not pulling your weight? Riiiiight. How exactly does this work? Timezones, real life, etc etc may have made it difficult for CONDI members to show up for this one. Or they may have been busy doing other things within the game.

Your biggest mistake is you see CFC as a group of separate entities. They are, for all intents and purposes one entity - your separate but equal argument is not only offensive and baseless, but borders on a level of retard that even for you is amazing.

Keter said...

Man this article is spot on except for the part where everything is wrong.

"I don't know the history well, neither I care." Despite this you still somehow have an opinion. That's... problematic. Because our history is why we have a coalition structure rather than a giant bloated corpse of an alliance.

Believe it or not, a lot of our allies have no desire to be in Goonwaffe proper. And for good reason. This allows them to keep their own command structures and pursue their own goals in their own way. If RZR or EXE were in alliance with us they would have to use our doctrines, our tax structures, our everything. Instead, they've integrated to the point where we can work together when required, but still have enough freedom to manage their own processes. They provide input at the organizational level, but if they want to fly logis with guns then they can, they just have to pay for them.

If they were fully integrated they would lose that freedom. Then they really would be "pets" as they would be subject to whatever mad whims our directorate cooks up. As it stands, they reap the benefits of association with Goonwaffe, without the horrible aspect of actually being in CONDI. We all fight together and we all share the loot together.

If you look at TEST you'll see that you've had issues with enforcing battle doctrines, maintaining morale, and getting robbed blind by your own people. This is because your policy for the last year or so has been to absorb every two bit corp the CFC has steamrolled in the past. You've assembled a peanut gallery of losers and now are helpless as it tears itself apart. And it's going to continue to do that because you no longer have a distinct culture but a hodgepodge of groups that have no common ground other than a shared hatred of the CFC.

The closest thing the CFC has to a "pet" is FWeddit, and that situation only exists because they're too young and too small to get into sovwar by themselves. We gave them a couch to crash on, integrated them into our combat operations, and they've proven themselves to the most bloodthirsty, savage, vicious little newbies we could hope for. With combat operations in Fountain coming to an end they now get to decide if they're just war tourists who will show up for a good brawl, or if they want to stay with us as an ally and share the spoils of whatever war we find ourselves in next.

See, one of the basic principles of the CFC is that we don't have pets. We either stand beside you or against you. We may rob you blind, burn down everything you've worked for, and scatter your ashes across the galaxy, but we will never charge you rent.

Maxim Preobrazhenskiy said...

I always found it perplexing how people seem to think that real life has privileged access to atrocious behaviour.

Discrimination is discrimination.

Racial discrimination IRL is worse than playstyle discrimination in Eve, because it is much harder t get out of it. However, the mechanics are all the same.

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Also it is very cute how people who submit themselves to power decisions of others take offense at being called "pets".

Ain't you just cuddly fluffy prettiest things :D

MegaZuq said...

How is this difrent from being in a corp or being a corp within an alliance.
In a corp each member can be kicked for under performing by the ceo/corp owner, and in each alliance each corp can be kicked by the alliance ceo for under performing, but offcourse the corp ceo or alliance ceo does not kick him self or his corp for doing just the same.

Gevlon said...

The leader reached his position by meritocracy. If he fails to lead well, he lose his members, so they can assess his performance.

Anonymous said...

Stop being dense. Does SMA or TRIBE have the power to say "Ok CFC/Rebels, tomorrow we're gonna deploy to __"? No. Can they say "GSF/TEST your performance has been underwhelming, we're booting you from the coaltion"? No.

That is the inequality he is talking about.

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