Greedy Goblin

Thursday, July 19, 2012

Help Jack find a nullsec alliance!

This post was inspired by the silence over my last post about searching an alliance. Every time I wrote something on the topic, I got 20-50 publishable comments and countless (100+) trolls. Yesterday I'm not sure I moderated a single troll (offtopic an blue pill spam is different) yet you can see zero comment on the most critical point: the declaration of goals of alliances. Or rather, their lack of it.

Forget about me today! Let's talk about Jack. Jack has no blog, doesn't want to change anything in the real World observing MMOs. He doesn't even want to change anything in EVE, he doesn't aspire to be the new Mittani or Helicity or even the "hero of the 15 minutes of eve24". He just wants to have fun with a game. He saw the videos and had a "whoa" moment over EVE. Yes, spaceships, blasters, that's more fun than swords and orcs.

Jack started EVE and did like everyone coming without an external community: career agent missions, random training in the first months, L1, L2, L3, L4, peeking into lowsec, getting some kills and more losses, having fun with spaceships on his own. But now he start to get bored and misses what he saw on the videos: the large fleet battles. For this reason, he is now looking for an alliance. He doesn't have problem with doctrines or being Drake#231, doesn't want to be a pain-in-the-ass, ready to do what the FC says. He is online often, has reasonable knowledge about fitting and ready to read anything the leadership mandates him.

He opens up the alliance list and gets overwhelmed. So many of them! And they are so similar! I mean, after checking out a dozen pages he finds the same panels "we want to provide fun, social environment and spaceship pew-pew for our members, we demand activity, loyalty, basic game knowledge and no-drama".

It seems Jack would fit to any nullsec corp except for those who demand external group membership. All of them offers him flying in null with other pilots and none of them offers him anything more or special. How shall he decide who to join? X and Y are maybe at war. Shall he choose between them by flipping a coin? Please help Jack! Tell him why the alliance you are in is the right choice for him. Tell him why are you special, why are you a better group than your enemies.

Please spare him from the "cus we'll win" because you can't see the future. You might win, you might not. If I wrote a month ago that Nulli would be an FW corp doing the same as Fweddit, -A- ran away without a fight and TEST would be twice the size of GSF, I'd get more laughter than my 6-link titans. You can't guarantee victory.

Nor can you say "we are more fun to talk to", because that's a lie. You don't have more sense of humor or have better stories (or any other RL qualities) than the rest of the players. The only exception if your alliance recruits directly on RL group memberships, like GSF can honestly claim that Jack easily find partners to grief randoms or a corp that demands you to submit your PHD documentation can claim that he'll find more intelligent discussions. Feel free to inform Jack (and me, and the readers) if your alliance has such screening method.

Please also spare him from the "it's a game lol" comments. He knows that. He doesn't expect answers like "Our group collects money for curing cancer", though clearly welcomes and considers them. He actually expects game-goals like "we want to win the next Alliance tournament" or "we want to destroy Goons" or "we want to be the largest alliance" or "we want to have the most systems" or even "we want to have the highest number/ISK of kills in 2013". If your alliance has such game goals, please share, Jack is eager to contribute to some competitive goal. He is a good player.

So, dear readers, help Jack find a Nullsec alliance, recruit him to your own alliance! If you don't want Jack in, please write why. Remember, poor Jack has nothing to do with me. That guy is poor and does missions for ISK.

Back to me: I'm sure you are bored with my soap-opera "Gevlon seeking place in null". Please understand that I don't want to jump in the first opportunity, I want to join a place where I can stay for long and it can only happen if I understand what can I expect from them and what will they expect from me.

Thursday morning report: 108.5B I Liquidated about 1/3 of my item list because I want to spend much less time with trading. Also, I want to limit my assets in trading materials to 70-90B, keeping the rest in cash for nullsec purposes. (2B spent on main accounts, 1.3 spent on Logi/Carrier, 1.0 on Ragnarok, 1.0 on Rorqual, 0.9 on Nyx, 1.3 on Avatar, 2.6B received as gift).


Serpentine Logic said...

The real reason people join a nullsec alliance when language or pre-existing communities are not a concern is simple.

To wrap themselves in the mantle of superiority over others.

Whether that exhibits as elitism, or anti-elitism (hi goons) is immaterial.

evemonkey said...

not to toot my own horn at all but I wrote a blog post about this and the "how" here:

Parasoja said...

One thing to consider is that nullsec, and the alliances in it, are not static. I've been in half a dozen alliances, and the longest any of them lasted without failing horribly was 1 year, 4 months.

If you're looking for an alliance to stay with, it might be a good idea to make the first criterion how long it's been around, and whether it has successfully recovered from losing its space. In this category, goons, razor, and AAA are the only major alliances that spring to mind.

Alternatively you could join a random scrub alliance. By the time it fails you will have a better idea of what you're looking for and where to find it, and hopefully have a killboard and/or reputation to go with your membership application.

Janis Sprukts said...

I would encourage Jack to come and join CVA or some other Providence region alliance.

These are not the largest or most powerful alliances, but for the most part they are no worse than most others.

What distinguishes these alliances is that there is a clear goal - bringing hi-sec to null-sec. The pvp half of Providence alliances act a lot like CONCORD and are clearing the area from the bad guys. Though they are not near as good as CONCORD (and that brings some serious fun to both sides).

Also if Jack does not pvp or does not belong to these alliances he is still free to roam Providence. He won't be shot at, except by the bad guys that occasionally come for some fights from outside.

If Jack wants to play a cop or an inquisitor, he would love Providence. Also if Jack loves to role-play there is no better place than Providence to pack a pvp boat with guns, slaves, some exotic dancers, a copy of Pax Amarria and adore a lossmail afterwards.

But if Jack turns out to be a goblin, he might be disappointed in Providence.

Anonymous said...

Is it me? This Post reads kind of like you (Gevlon) are expecting recruitment in 0sec alliances to be the exact opposite of what it is.

It's not like there are few players that want to play in 0sec and thousands of alliances who fight over 'em.

In fact its the opposite. There are alot of applicants to pretty much all successfull 0sec alliances/corps, you don't have to advertise much there.

The question that jack needs to ask himself is not "which is the coolest alliance" it is - "where can i get in?".
Sorry to spoil it for you, but in eve recruitment is a very social thing, because recruitment to a large extend is about trust.

You wrote Jack has some experience in the game, and he might know some guys in a 0sec corp - thats his best place to start, because they can make him get in, and he will have people he can talk to if he needs to learn something.

If he does not know people it depends a bit on the corp he wants to join: in a 0sec corp he most likely has to start with the smallest piece of the 0sec food chain: a renter - or if he gets lucky - a pet.
There he can learn the basics, while proving himself to be usefull and getting the trust of people who will help him to get in a "full" alliance corp at some point.

Other alliances have "Starter Corps" where people that they don't know get in - usually those will train people and integrate them into the alliance while keeping 'em away from all critical intel.

Either way its not the alliance who needs to sell itself, its the player who applies.

Kelsier Chevalier said...

Dear Jack (and Gevlon),

let me tell you a bit of my Story, how i entered Null and fared so far.

I joined my first Nullsec Alliance through a friend who had been playing for years, and had his own little corp in a small Alliance that rented Space from a BIG PLAYER.

So in the beginning, i was a Renter and payed 20M per month per Account for the right to live in certain Systems. There were no big battles for me, as i couldnt fly anything useful. Also i had to learn new Ships and new Weapons do make a living. The Ships i've flown for L4 Missions werent usefull against the Rats we had in our little part of 0.0

Chances are high, it will be the same for Jack. He knows someone, that can get him into his first Alliance. He has to learn new skills, get adapted to a new way of doing things, and be prepared for the next (almost inevitable) Step.

Every Alliance can fail.
So did my first, it disbanded about Drama and a thousand more reasons i have no knowledge about.
The Corp got into a new Alliance, nearly the same space but this Alliance also failed a few months later.
What did become of me?
During the existence of my two former 0.0 alliances, i got to know enough decent people, i wanted to stick with. So i got into a new corporation, which got into a newly formed Alliance that wasnt about to rent Space, but to get Space for themselves.

By just playing the game, not being a dick or an obvious Spy, i advanced in the 0.0 Hierarchy.

Im still in a small alliance. But now im actively fighting, because i learned enough skills for the Doctrines we field. And we are fighting not for "good fights" or "fun" but for our own Space. For a place to live in and the respect of our neighbours, so they wont think of us as easy prey.
Despite the odds (2vs1, 3vs1), we are fighting, and it feels good.
And i know, even if we lose, i'll be in a better position after it. My peers will know me for a fighter, and i'll get a new invite for another alliance.

Im not Drake #221.
I'm Kelsier Chevalier, and I don't give up.


PS: If you want to know more, shot me an ingame mail or pm.

Trish Red said...

You had the answer in your own post.You told us what Jack does not want but also what Jack wants : he wants to have fun.

In this conditions, he can join any alliance.

If all Jack wants is to "have fun", than for him it is "just a game", so, any alliance is good for him.

Now, if you want to understand what drives people to null is only ONE thing : blow up ships, no matter what alliance are they in.

I was anti old NC and pro TRI (1,2 and 3), i was anti -A- and pro RA, I was anti RA and pro ATLAS and -A-, I was anti Goon and Pro Evoke and I am pro CFC/HBC.

If Jack only wants is to have fun, and he can listen any FC and read about things and know shit about fittings and such...he can join ANY null sec alliance.

Now also can join ANY null sec alliance, just stick to cheap ships.If you wants, as you declared many times, to be a supercap pilot, join -A-, Goons, TEST or IRC.Even if -A- will lose their space, or IRC, they are resilient and will come back.Goons and TEST might against eachother, but not to the point of destroying one of them, just for GF's.

So, the question is now? Are you Jack or just consider to become Jack first, see how things go in null, and than go your own way?

Anonymous said...

Does Jack have any friends in good alliances who can vouch for him?

If no I would suggest he joins RvB or FW for at least a month or two to build a bit of a killboard - it doesn't really matter what he shoots, he should just make sure he gets a decent amount of kills (at least 100 kills/month, 200-300 would be really good and should be achievable) and doesn't have any blatant failfits in his losses.

Then he can apply for some reasonably stable 2nd tier alliance (think the likes of FA) or a corporation in a large alliance that has no recruitment standards (looking at you, enli; dreddit via Arts&Crafts; ...).

Don't join renters, don't join Russians, don't join entities with a horrible reputation, don't join NPC 0.0, low-sec or RP groups (he wants to take part in big fights after all), don't join newcomers (they may have space now but who knows where they will be in 6 months?), ...
in the end there'll probably be only a handful of corporations that are reasonable choices for Jack.

Joining a non-English corporation may allow him to aim a bit higher than he would be able to in international corporation/alliance.

I think he would mostly end up looking at CFC (without HB) alliances - outside of the CFC most entities are either too small to get him into big fights on a regular basis, are just bad, are competent but won't recruit him (NCdot, Raiden, PL, ...) or have some other shortcomings (e.g. TEST's record of treating allies and corporations which don't have a name starting in "dreddit" is mixed to say the least).

Wherever he goes Jack should take care to leave a lasting (positive) impression with at least some people and if he makes friends he should keep these friendships alive even after ways part - personal vouches are a big deal in 0.0 alliances.

Gevlon said...

You are misunderstanding Jack: he wants some form of goal. If he'd just want PvP, he'd join some lowsec pirates who fight small-gang PvP.

dobablo said...

"I Liquidated about 1/3 of my item list because I want to spend much less time with trading. Also, I want to limit my assets in trading materials to 70-90B, keeping the rest in cash for nullsec purposes."

That is disapointing news unless you have a nullsec oportunity to invest in. It sounds as though you are no longer cash limited but time limited instead. I would expect you to divest yourself items that give you a lower return on your time and look to re-invest in new materials. You're effectively saying that you've reached the gold-cap for a trader and can only go higher by being a no-lifer.

Gevlon said...

@Dobablo: the easiest low-return, low-time method is known: raising characters for sale.

Khanh'rhh said...

To be honest, unlike highsec recruitment there really are differences in nullsec groups and what they do and offer. Some examples:

Dirt nap squad: do large amounts of blackops over everything else. This is a rarely used in PVP normally, so is quite unique.

PL: "Elite PVP" - you need to demonstrate high PVP prowess to get in.

CVA: Roleplayers, almost completely unique in doing so.

Various regional / language based alliances.

Small gang focussed.

NPC space (no sov) focussed.

Large scale PVP focussed.

Empire builders.

There is a lot out there, you need to either start meeting them in game or start digging through the recruitment section of the Eve-O forums.

Kirith Kodachi said...

Really, players don't join alliances, they join corporations. There are recruitment tools in game, channels, and forums for that type of recruitment where corps or players advertise and discussions occur.

IN those discussions, each party lays out what they have to offer and what they want. If there is enough alignment, the player joins the corporation. The alliance the corporation is part of is simply another offering of that corporation.

Its really not that hard.

Agent Black Cat said...

It is interesting that no one has a recruiting pitch about what distinguishes them. I'm not talking in terms of tactics (although I personally favor Dirt Nap Squad's style). I'm talking about goals. There's no One Empire in the making, no Capsuleers For Christ (not even an ironic one). The closest thing would be the meta-alliance of OTEC, whose primary goal is to control Technetium prices. Its a cool goal and even cooler that they manage it but now its just maintaining the status quo. Where's the Alliance that wants to carve out some space without knuckling under to the power blocks, the alliance that wants to shut down Technetium production, the guys who want one system with a neutral meeting place for everyone else in null? Sure those ideas may be goofy, even unachievable but its better to aim high and fail then aim low and succeed.

Anonymous said...

I suspect the goal of most 0.0 alliances is to make isk from their members so that the leaders can then RMT it.

A few alliances with goals that I know of are the CVA and friends who try to bring the Amarrian role-play style law and order to all 0.0. Then there is the Star Fraction who want to turn all of space into anarchist free space, where everyone can do what ever they want.

Anonymous said...

"but its better to aim high and fail then aim low and succeed"

no, it isn't. Having some fancy idea is not a challenge (both in EVE and RL ideas are a dime the dozen), implementing an idea is the challenge that only a few get right.
Aiming so high that your plan is bound to fail before you even get to the implementation stage is only an excuse for accomplishing nothing.
A guy that actually builds a diesel engine is infinitely more useful to society than someone who spends half of his life dreaming about perpetual motion devices.

However, you do have a point about the lack of recruitment pitches, so here is mine (although I'm not a recruiter and still new-ish in the corporation myself):

Jack would be welcome to join Sniggwaffe. Sniggwaffe is a low-sec and 0.0 corporation that specializes in small gang pvp and blackops, it also is the training corporation for Pandemic Legion.

Sniggwaffe is a better corporation than most because we realize that we all are bad at pvp - after all, if we were any good we wouldn't be waffles but PL members.
Realizing just how bad you actually are is the first step towards getting out of that state of badness and something a lot of pilots and corporations try to skip to their own detriment.
Sitting around in a library won't make you magically pass your next exam and sitting around in Sniggwaffe twiddling your thumbs won't help you to become decent at pvp. However, just as a library is a great place to study with very few distractions, Sniggwaffe is a great corporation (with very few distractions) for people who want to improve at pvp.

Solid pvp knowledge opens a lot of doors in EVE and will make you an asset to any corporation/alliance you decide to join.
Sniggwaffe is not a corporation you will spend your life in but it is in my opinion the ideal stepping stone between high-sec carebear and member of an established 0.0 alliance (be that PL or some other place).

To get a better picture of what this corporation can and cannot provide to him Jack should join the in-game channel "Join Sniggwaffe", read the MOTD and ask to talk to a recruiter.

What is generally expected from new members is
* no attitude. If a PL member tells you that you are shit, chances are he is right and you are too bad to recognize even that simple fact. If you get upset about having your failures pointed out to you and everyone else in presence this is the wrong place for you.
* a thick skin - you may get hazed, trolled and made fun of and you shouldn't freak out about strong/racist/homophobic/... language being used in your presence.
* 5m SP and the ability to fly a T1 frigate and cruiser. That's the official stance on recruitment requirements but in my experience the 5m SP boundary is not really binding while the ability to fly an interceptor and stealth bomber is almost mandatory.
* an independent source of personal income - there are no ship reimbursements (other than corp Scimitars) and most places we get deployed to are warzones or low-sec.
* don't ask "when can I join PL?" every other day - you will be told when you are ready to join PL and I think most people quit Sniggwaffe before that point anyways. Unless there is some other arrangement in place expect to spend at least 6-12 months in waffles before that question comes up for discussion.

In Sniggwaffe Jack would find one of the best places in this game to learn pvp, a strong sense of comradeship between fellow recruits, the opportunity to fly with PL pilots who are very good at what they are doing and he will of course become part of some of the big fleet fights he has heard about (usually as part of a bomber wing).

Johan March said...

If Jack is a brand new player. Join EVE university. Several nullsec alliances recruit EVE uni grads. It's probably much easier if Jack is PVP focused.

Anonymous said...

Eve University got slammed by the recent change to how much it costs to wardec them. (It used to cost a lot of isk, not so much any more.)

So if you're flying in hi-sec as E-UNI, you'll get podded.

Clarity said...

It's your job to find an alliance with a culture that fits you. Culture is what holds and alliance together through success and failure, defines what kind of person it attracts and retains, sets the tone of the day to day environment, and distinguishes it from other alliances.

Individual goals vary, and generally a large organizations goals are not limited to one or even two bullet points. Further, many organizations aren't interested in giving you their goals (short or long term) for opsec reasons.

PS. Most of the people recruiting aren't people a smart player would want to join.

Google doesn't need to recruit overmuch because they're Google. They may do some targeted head hunting, but that comes down to specific arrangements between the person and the organization.

Anonymous said...

I think a disconnect is "alliance culture" and "goal of the alliance"

E.g., there is the social culture of Goons that almost all of the 8000 members can enunciate. The actual current goals of GS depends upon the desires of Mitanni which is much harder to actually know. TBH, listening to what he says does not provide much insight into his actual intentions.

There is also the issues that the current alliance goals may change. E.g. if there is a charismatic leader who has an upcoming marriage/divorce/first-child, then the future is less certain.

Related to the above, I also submit that there are a tiny number of players (< 1%) who care about goals not good fights. So even if an alliance has real goal, then it is in their best interest to talk about them.

I hope you post Jack's results. Are there Alliances with non-RP goals that are not GoodFights or leader egos/greed?

Agent Black Cat said...

"but its better to aim high and fail then aim low and succeed"

no, it isn't. Having some fancy idea is not a challenge (both in EVE and RL ideas are a dime the dozen), implementing an idea is the challenge that only a few get right.
Aiming so high that your plan is bound to fail before you even get to the implementation stage is only an excuse for accomplishing nothing.
A guy that actually builds a diesel engine is infinitely more useful to society than someone who spends half of his life dreaming about perpetual motion devices.

True. What I meant was more like "its better to aim high and miss. . .and keep trying until you hit than to aim low once and hit the mark."

I'm not asking for an in depth, step by step plan. When the Goons started, they just kept coming. You couldn't run them off because they had a bond that went beyond pixel spaceships. Now they've got OTEC. They may not have planned that from the start but they always had a next step in mind. When they failed, they learned, adapted and came back smarter.

To some extent, every null Alliance went through something like this. They're the evolutionary survivors of the fittest of almost ten years of nullsec crucible. Then again, the dumbest guy you know in the real world is an evolutionary survivor of the fittest, too. They've run up the level of gameplay required to survive in null but who's looking at the mistaken assumptions, subtle system changes and whatnot that will be the next step past them?

If you want to aim low and miss, pick any renter Alliance. If you want to aim high and be willing to miss a few times before you find the mark, I don't know who to suggest.

Anonymous said...

Jack could watch today's Alliance Tournament. Several alliances ran commercials in what could be the most visible venue for EVE players.

I did not see many "goals" in the Jack sense of the word. Goons was "Jita will not burn itself" and Gypsy had a good commercial playing on Gypsy. There was one that mentioned ISK destroyed, one mentioned keeping people docked, one mentioned fun. Griefing & GF seem to be the goals not the tactics.