Greedy Goblin

Wednesday, May 11, 2011

Fighting the counter-culture

I encountered a serious problem when using the "blame the guild, not the moron" approach in Tol Barad. While the trick worked on most bad players, a smaller portion was not simple immune to it, but became increasingly hostile. They are openly trolling the /raid and sabotating the win. It took some research, both on the Armory and in social-psychology to find out what the hell is going on.

Those who obey the criticism when their guild name was mentioned belong to good, or at least tolerable guilds. These players, are "friend" ranked, and while they don't live up to the majority norms of the community, they believe the norms. Like the poor guy who steals from the shop "because he has to", while being aware of "stealing is bad" and being somewhat ashamed of what he just done. These people, when their activity is openly revealed, back off because they know that they are doing it wrong. Alternatively, if they are ignorant, they know that there are people who know what's going on. They believe that the key members of their guild are good players and these key members would have bad opinion about their action. Just like the poor thief who really don't want his mother to figure out what he is doing.

On the other hand the openly resisting ones belong to lolguilds. Only a few 85, all members are terribly geared, ungemmed, unenchanted, unglyphed, bad specs and so on. Not a single decent guy there and obviously 0 progression. For example this terrible nest of stupidity. While the 4K DPS M&S in a 6/12 guild knows that he is "somewhat undergeared" and the "more HC" members of the guild are better than him, the M&S of lolguilds see and accept no positive examples. They don't seek excuses for their failings as they don't even see themselves failing, but standing up against an oppressing and bad authority of the no-lifers or nerds. They are like the gang-hooligans who are proud of the time they spent in prison, and consider being a jerk with the teachers, cops, childcare services members is a matter of pride and dignity. They belong to a counter-culture.

The only way to solve this problem (besides killing them all) is to remove the members from the gang and place them into positive-value group. The problem is that as they are worthless at the moment, no positive-value group needs them. This is the point where the helpful socials are good for something: they should be including and helping these M&S to the point where they recognize that there is something better than them (even if it's just a "freindly heplfull guild").

How to force them join such guilds? The single source of "fun" of the M&S is social acceptance. The lolguilds actively recruit newbies and fellow morons to have a lively lol-chat where they can have the group-feeling of the gang. It is what must be taken from them!

So I wrote a "How to find an alliance guild on EU-Agamaggan" thread on the official realm forum and sent the link in a mail to every higher level member of the lolguilds that give us trouble. If they have a serious exodus, their lolguild will collapse and they have to join a social guild that has a raiding core. I could never imagine that I will help recruit to "freindly heplfull" guilds, but I had to notice that the "he just don't have gear, that's why he does 4K and stands in the fire" is miles away from "doing 4K and standing in the fire is OK, the point is fun".

I also messed with their recruiting and as you can see from the comments, they are pretty upset about that. I'll keep you updated how will it work out.

The results can only be seen in their trolling activity as they can never lose TB again, even with open sabotage, as I found the ultimate IWIN strategy for TB-like battles (for assault, defense, WG or whatever will be the horde vs alliance zone in 5.0). No it's not a tactical trick. It's completely "social". It always wins, and with devastating results, like assault in 4 mins, defense without them ever having 2 bases fully captured. You can see it tomorrow. Don't miss it!


Jana said...

Seems that your "messing up the recruiting posts" have been purged by a forum moderator.
Did you also get a temporary suspension or no?
You should watch your expressions a bit. Yes they are morons, yes they are retards, but I don't think you want to get permanent official forum holiday on your main account.

spinksville said...

If I was in a friendly social guild, why would I want one of your sexist, racist, trash talking, lol say what I want, PvP nuts in my guild?

Gevlon said...

@Jana: it's just weird because while my comments have disappeared, others trashing the guild and especially the guild-members defending themselves quoting my whole post is there. Either a very dumb junior GM or some bug.

@Spinks: because he is a friend who just need some help to be good! They are just new to the game and have no gear!

Yaggle said...

Where I work, they do the same thing to fix the problem. Because our stocking crew gets along and does good, they periodically send a hooligan from a bad store to our store. Now almost all of us used to work at a hooligan store, so I guess it worked. None of the people totally reversed and became the best workers in the company, but they became at least average. Sometimes it is annoying because it seems they dump our garbage where I work, but that's the way it goes.

Alkemono said...

"Either a very dumb junior GM or some bug."
Probably, GM was just critically hit by the walls of text and now at the spirit healer. Sigul was kind enough to provide just enough of good material to make them.

Lei said...

Oh dear God, tell me these people are not serious.
But, that rank 1 hunter who talks alot got some glyph! And enchants! And gems! :)
He seems like the guy who write a wall of text of crap, but in the meantime he correct his fails. Well, at least if he is one of the guys who was without gem/enchant/glyph

Anonymous said...

I read all your posts for more than a year now. Although you are right in many of your comments, your way of expressing these to people you don't even know, is unacceptable. People spend their time in this game to have fun and not having a guy yelling or calling them names. They pay the same amount of money you pay to play the game the way they like. And if you do not like the way THEY play, don't play with them. Stay away from activities than involves "M&S" interaction.

It doesn't worth it to play a game and feel an urge to speak to others like you do. Do you really enjoy the game like this? Really now. Do you? I mean, come on. Almost every fuckin' post here is about how stupid others are. I cannot believe an european can act so much "USish"... Unless you enjoy speaking that way or there are some other issues IRL that push you towards this behavior.

This is not real life. This is not your job where you have to cope with some jerks you work with like it or not. This is a game. And you have the option NOT to play it.

Once again maybe most of your opinions are the towards the right direction. But the way you try to ENFORCE them is not right. You cannot enforce things like this. Actually you cannot ENFORCE anything. You can only enforce things in your guild (your guild, your rules) but not in a TB battle.

With friendly regards

Yaggle said...

I bet these "Bad Mana" players fill up their glyph slots and start playing in TB much better now to prove they aren't noobs nor suck. They also probably make new "This win provided to you by Bad Mana" type macros, too.

nightgerbil said...

@Lei, shame that hunter has a bad pvp spec and didnt choose to gem for spell pen. Seems self aware enough to actually be helpable (if thats a word) I just cant muster the energy.

Lei said...

Last Anonymous: I do not understand why should Gevlon stay away from people who want "fun" (by loosing?). For people who knows whats going on in the game, accomplishing a TB victory is (the) fun. I don't even understand how can be loosing fun for someone. It's not like Gevlon ruins the lames funtime, THEY ruins EVERYONE else's fun. If 3 of 25 is idiot, who should stay away? The 22? I doubt...
I am sick of this philosophy: "if you don't like it, don't go there". Nothing works like this. If someone breaks in to your house, kills your wife and children, you simply run away because "ooh he's just wanna have fun, why would I stop him to have fun"? I know its an extreme simile, but the point is: If everyone can do everything IRL or in a game (without somone leading them, making rules or "tactic"), it leads to anarchy.
If a team has no tactic, that team most likely won't win. With being Gevlon as a "team leader" (I believe there were no other leader-wannabe there, only the chaos), everyone who don't want to do his tactic, simply acts against the whole team (not just against Gevlon, not against the PuG, against the whole team). It's not hard to understand, and it is not about fun. You can have fun with following the tacts, but they simply choose to be assholes and rebelling against it, while they had no better idea, only running around like headless chickens.
Why would someone stay away who knows the drill, instead of those who got not a single spark in their head about what are they doing, AND if they got some advice they refuse to do it, on the top of that they are sabotaging the whole team?
About Enforce, and the power of the masses: if someone ninja an epic in a raid, on better realms that character never ever will get in into any guilds, he won't be able to form a pug neither, because all the realm will know about it (on better realms, after xfer they won't get in either, because fanatic people will follow them anywhere). Poor him! He only wanted to have fun!, with ninjaing epixxxz.
Same with these idiots: if masses shout their name being total assholes and saboteurs, their reputation will fall, and with this they will enforced to be better (like, they got glyphs, enchants and gems already), OR they will stay away and they will find "fun" somewhere else. I don't think there is a bigger shame being a leader in a PvP guild and being totally lame to perform well in a PvP battle.

Andru said...

Being defensive and self-correcting behaviour is not really bad.

It does not matter if he throws your advice in your face in order to 'save face' in front of his peers, while he secretly listens and learns.

It simply means that his cognitive dissonance is not strong enough to modify behaviour, but is a tool of social integration.

When he will figure out that counter-culture groups are not the only ones who can and will accept him/them, then they will get out.


Same goes for you, and every other idiot who claims to be a moral beacon disgusted by verbal abuse. Ignore function. Use it. And if you can't stand being told off in a game, stop playing that game.

Funny how your 'argument' is actually a non-argument. Pro tip. If the reasoning can be used sucessfully by both sides in a discussion, then it's a tautology with no weight.

Now then, I agree that Gevlon is too harsh on insults. This is not my opinion, but Blizzard's opinion. Thus, if he continues carrying on like that, he will get another suspension, just a matter of time.

That would be bad, not only for him but for me too since I've come to depend on his ...huh... leadership during battles.

As a self-interested TB player, I have to beg. Gevlon, stop insulting idiots. You get no results and will only harm yourself. (And me.)

Anonymous said...

I originally started reading this blog because of Undergeared - that was an awesome project, and you had my admiration then.

But now it seems the main point is to tell us how bad so many people are and then brag on how you've insulted them, instead of showing by a positive example how to do it better.

Insulting players or their guilds in TB if they do not do what you want them to do is... quite common. All sorts of troll idiots rage during and after TB on my server, and guess what - no one takes them seriously. Other idiots may get upset, anyone with a brain puts them on ignore or possibly reports for abusive talk. Maybe you can stop some people from going to TB like this, congratulations. But is this really the way you want to portray yourself?

Telling new players to apply to only the top raiding guilds on the server (one of which immediately pointed out they do not want these people) is also silly. At least ask these guilds first if they want to be listed. Implying that any guild with less than 9 kills is not worth joining is simply idiotic. Why 9? Yours only has 12, it's not a whole lot more! For someone just starting out, a guild that is able to kill 6 bosses may be the perfect place to start raiding in in a low stress -environment. Not to mention pvp guilds that don't even raid - they are still good options for those into pvp.

Going to troll in other guilds' recruitment threads is just not right. You can argue issues, you can point out stupid behaviour but saying an entire guild is made of idiots is an offensive generalisation. Even if right, saying things like this is not part of how adults should communicate.

Live and let live. Play your game with people who think like you and leave the rest alone. If you must do TB, then remember the other side also has idiots so it's balanced, after all. If you're feeling upset don't take it out on everyone else - that is what 2 year olds do.

Anonymous said...


You really feel that 3 people can ruin a well organized try in TB? This is what I say then. If you cannot cope with these 3 only guys then maybe he should not participate.

You cannot compare TB failure with epics ninja-ing. You take things too seriously I think. That's why I will ask the same. Are you really enjoying the game? And what is that "following tactics" thing? Wait a minute here...

You cannot EXPECT people to follow a random guy who likes to be vocal in a TB game. You may admire your GM but this is not the case to the whole server! There might be people that do not like him. Or think he is not good enough. And if people do not want to follow these "tactics", you call them idiots or retards! Really?

It is expected that people who are insulted to rebel against even a RIGHT TACTIC. This is how it works man. If you choose the wrong way to treat people, you get that back! Even if TACTS ARE RIGHT!


I will answer to you like other "idiots" like you. I agree!

People should use the ignore on anyone who insult them after reporting them of course. I am sure that Glotan and every glotan know that there is a risk to be banned (for good reason) if you insult others!

In real life for instance if you go out and insult someone you can get beaten. Or even be sued. The direct analog here is being reported and banned. Easy as that.

Although I do not approve the way glotan behaves, I think he is a sane person and knows ALL these. So, he either sacrifices himself for the "greater good" (idiots like Andru get more wins since they are INCAPABLE themselves to lead) or he does not give a shit if he is banned or not, something that I respect. I respect him though not YOU who not only do rely on him top get a TB win but calling others ... idiots! Man...

Grim said...

They pay the same amount of money you pay to play the game the way they like.

Yeah, sure - their $14.99 entitles them to play the way they like. But the rest of TB-fighters' roughly $600 says "Get your head out of your ass!"

Alrenous said...

Socials are often moronic, or think they can get away with slacking.

True M&S will be the immunes.

The real problem is that nobody should ever be forced to associate with true M&S, it just so happens that it benefits certain exclusive groups to force others to.

Such as the group of Blizzard shareholders vis a vis Tol Barad.

"Either a very dumb junior GM or some bug."

False. The same thing has happened to me - blizzard mods recognize and rightly fear true criticism. Blizzard doesn't (normally) hire M&S, so they can all recognize when a non-M&S actually goes to the forums. Similarly, they recognize that most of the QQ and trolling is totally ineffective whining. (Oversaturation IRL leads to immunization, I would guess.)

Indeed it's pretty easy to say in advance which posts will 'mysteriously' disappear.

Alkemono said...

@08:46 Anonymous
"And if you do not like the way THEY play, don't play with them. Stay away from activities than involves "M&S" interaction."
Now this is just one of the most fantastically stupid advices I ever heard (and believe me, I heard some real masterpieces). In fact, if humankind would ever really follow it, it would become extinct in a matter of years. Just hear yourself - you ask people to not to face any difficulty, run away from any unpleasant thing, don't have they own opinion - just if some moron decided, that doing stupid things in front of them is "fun". In real life there are people, who act exactly like that, and you know what? It's the most miserable part of any community. You know, why? That's because you can't run forever, and morons won't stop seeing you trying to avoid conflicts. It's the human nature, if you press on someone and he don't respond, you don't stop, you press until he starts responding or breaks. Smart people can stop that in themselves, morons can't (they don't even understand that it's something bad, it's quite normal social behaviour), and guess what? Morons are intellectual majority.

"This is a game."
Yes, this is a game. And, what's more important, it's a multi-player game. And things like TB battle is a place, where multiple people put they best efforts to win together. Now, if someone of that people decides, that he "cba" to play good, to put any effort to win, but still comes to the battle, he must be considered by the team as what he really is - an enemy! And there is the main trouble Gevlon is having there - he want them out, but he don't have any real means to throw them out, and they are, pretty often, protected by some more social team members, who's social views disable they ability to see, that enemy can very well carry your own team colours. Such enemies is much worse, than an opposing team, at least, you can simply kill that opposing team out and keep them that way. Unfortunately, such enemies are too well protected by the system, but if my guess is right, the very same system and social firewalls protect that loophole, that we'll hear about tomorrow.

@10:56 Anonymous
"You really feel that 3 people can ruin a well organized try in TB?"
There are no such things, as well organized try in TB battle, as anyone, no matter, how organized his team is, can't keep other, not so organized, people, from coming to battle and ruining anything. What can do 10 players from The PuG, doing everything right, when 30 others doing everything wrong? They can lose, that's what. This isn't some speculation, that was really tested first on WG, and then in TB. There was, as I recall, even some posts in this blog, with the tests and results. Now, 3 people can't really do something that bad, that it will lose the battle, but what they can do is to lead others to help them doing something wrong - and then no effort of the organized team can save the day.

Zaxin said...

I just don't see the point in getting wound up and actively trying to destroy M&S.

Antisocial != Asocial.

I am asocial, I could give a shit one way or the other if I am in a guild, solo, talking to people, not talking to people. This goes for real life as well as in game. Sometimes I spend a lot of time with other people, sometimes I cba with social crap for months at a time.

Seeking to destroy socials/people who don't live or play the way I (or you) do is to be antisocial. This is to be little different than the chavs who smash up bars and beat up people who look different from them.

If I am in a random HC with a group of idiots, /care, I never have to see them again. If I am in a BG with a group of morons, so what, let them be moronic, it is not worth the blood pressure increase and hatred.

So my question after reading many of your posts is simply "Why do you care?"

Do you think you can "save" them and turn them into antisocial awesome goblins? It is more likely that you will turn them into antisocial morons, and we have quite enough of those thank you very much.

The rage level is increasing on this blog, and it is verging at times on Alex Jones vein-popping.

Do you think they lose any sleep, or spend even a moment considering you, past "lol, that elitist fuck" (Their words, not mine). How many hours have you dedicated to raging to the converted about those whom you have no desire to socialise with?

Don't get me wrong, I have been in the PuG, mostly because I dont have to talk in chat if I cba, and have no issue with the base concept, however, what it is morphing into smacks as much of e-peen as the guilds you profess to hate. Why are you trying to compete with what you consider lower life forms?

Anonymous said...

So you think criminals shouldn't be sent mindlessly en masse into prisons to be surrounded by a culture that prides istelf on reoffending, but instead institute processes for the criminal to benefit society and rebuild his life around positive role models?


Lei said...

Last Anonymous: "instead of showing by a positive example how to do it better"
What would be that positive example?
The whole story comes from the experience that these people DO NOT want help. They are happy with being fools, and they rather ruin the whole raid, instead of changing on their foolishness, and win. Have you read the last posts?


"You cannot EXPECT people to follow a random guy who likes to be vocal in a TB game."
If I have no idea about Tol Barad, well at least not much I could tell BETTER tactics myself (or at least A tactic be it good or bad), I would listen to the stranger...
Only people with clue could tell if someone has not right about something. But if you're good at something you don't need advice, you will do it good at by yourself and succeed. The thing is they are bad (or at least they have no clue), AND they are ignoring/rejecting/rebelling against everything that comes from outside...

"And what is that "following tactics" thing?"
Tactics is when someone has the experience and foresee to see the things as a big whole, and can tell people what to do in order to succeed. What do you think why is there a raid leader in a raid? Because if everyone does what they want, how many boss will die? Why is there guild leader? Why is there game master? Even in a hc pug: dungeon guide exists to tell people what to do, or give advice if they keep failing... There is a battleground leader too for purpose. It's random, yes, but why people refuse to something in an organized way if they don't have any better idea?
If you think you know better, stand up and say, but don't go emo and ruin everyones game because you feel insulted your little heart because your name was calling out...

Yes, I am serious about this game, because I have limited time to play it, and I want success (otherwise why would I play it?).

"You really feel that 3 people can ruin a well organized try in TB?"
It was a simile to minority vs. majority, no need chewing on the numbers.

"It is expected that people who are insulted to rebel against even a RIGHT TACTIC"
Like Gevlon said, he started with "xyz, leave that vehicle with 1 million hp, and help in to whateverplace" But as he said it is not enough against "lolihavefunhere" people. So THEN he started to call out guildnames. Please read and understand the post before replying.


"If I am in a random HC with a group of idiots, /care, I never have to see them again."
Will you kill bosses in ZG/ZA with 4/5 idiot? I doubt. With 2/5 i doubt too. At the very moment you can boost maximum 1 in the new instances. All you can do is: leave, in a hope of getting better group next time, or, stand up and tell them what to do, and complete the dungeon, and hopefully there will be 4 more not complete clueless people out there, and when they join into another group, they will have a spark in their head about the place. Of course, there are the deviant idiots, who doesn't know ANYTHING, yet they complain about you, who knows, and who trying to tell them. Yes they can't be helped, I usually leave these groups.

Bernard said...

I agree with the idea of warning against newbies joining M&S guilds, but I suggest that the use of harsh language says more about you than the players you are talking about.

Why not write an official forum strategy post on TB.
Name and shame guilds who are consistently against teamwork, but refrain from calling them idiots.

Anonymous said...

I don't understand how you attempt these well thought out posts without realizing (or at least acknowledging) the most obvious and important aspect of the lolkids: they're literally kids - 8, 9, 10 years old, even older. They honestly don't care.

Casper said...

@Gevlon: I love you! Keep on the good fight.

@Anonymous: About the "liberal!" accusation, you are absolutely right. This is why some conservatives have advocated punishments such as (public) whipping that hurt the body but do not damage the soul for those who aren't irreparably corrupted.

Alkemono said...

Why not write an official forum strategy post on TB.
Well, there are one excellent reason for that. It's totally useless. Those, who will read and understand, most likely already understand (or smart enough to follow the orders until they do), those, who don't - won't read, because they "cba" to know, what they are doing, or won't follow it anyway, because "dat guy think he is smart, lol?".

*vlad* said...

The players from such guilds are fairly ignorant of a lot of game concepts, but calling them noobs and scrubs is not the way to get their cooperation; all you are doing is making enemies.

I think it's a bit pathetic to be posting 'don't join' comments on their guild recruitment thread. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would surely check out a guild first before joining it anyway, but if someone with a bit of knowledge did join their guild, then they could teach them how to gem/glyph/enchant/gear up with a lot more success than you simply slagging them off.

Ignorance is not stupidity.

Andru said...

@Anonymous accusing me of lack of leadership.

I have lead my own guild in the past. I have, since then, decided that leading is a job best left to those who like doing it, or are 'altruists and other idiots'.

It's not as much as I can't. I can, I just don't want to.

@the 'liberal-accusing' moron

Learn what the hell liberalism is, before spouting Fox-news tripe. It's obviously you come from the US, the only country in which being liberal is probably a worse insult than being communist.

Alkemono said...

is not the way to get their cooperation
There are only one way to get they cooperation - to become like them and do what they do. As that would be quite insane course of action, most logical thing will be not to look for they cooperation, but get rid of they presence at all. One nice way to do that is to divert newbie flow to more decent guilds.

Shintar said...

Looking at that thread, I wouldn't be surprised if you actually helped that Bad Mana guild. As the saying goes, there is no such thing as bad publicity. Not to mention that from an outsider's perspective, you come off as the bad guy in that thread, seemingly attacking an entire guild out of nowhere.

Stubborn said...

This follows exactly what I said in my last comment. You have some extremely intelligent ideas that benefit large sectors of the community and can be copied and reused by others. You encourage better play by giving strategies to earn money and by incentivizing good behavior in your own guild. You have a lot of really excellent ideas.

Then you sabotage yourself.

Your idea about starting a post about how to find a new guild on your server was an excellent, beneficial, positive way to help your server. Going into the others' forums and trashing them was not. As Shintar said, you end up looking like the bad guy to people who don't know the full story. Additionally, forums are an absolutely atrocious method of communicating a controlled message because there's no real back-and-forth exchange. As in your forum, where a lot of your guild members came in and defended The PuG to idiots who trash talked about it, in their forum, you enable them to do the same. If you'd just stayed out of their forum, you'd have been better off.

If you want to work against them, do so either on a personal basis, whispering Bad Mana members and asking them what their connection to the guild is, why they're there, and if they'd consider leaving or just try to halt recruitment by working against any messages they post in trade or elsewhere. Both of these are horribly flawed (as one requires too much work and one is reactive instead of proactive), but by being able to more quickly and clearly deliver your message and counter their nonsense in an environment where all of both of your guilds can post is a far cry better than posting in their forums and being shouted down.

Or better yet, just set a good example and operate only on the promotion side and don't sully your reputation by attacking them. It takes a lot longer, yes, and it can be a lot more frustrating, but it works, and the results you get are more permanent.