The guild is growing very fast, already at 220 accounts, 40 more than it was two weeks ago. Surprisingly, most of them are not readers of this blog rerolling, but lvl 85s coming from the server.
We have killed 2 bosses and only 5 alliance guild killed anything on this server, and the 4 others have attendance rules, so if one cannot dedicate certain days every week to raiding here, The PuG is his only choice. However we were the only choice in WotLK for anyone with attendance issues but aiming to hard modes, and we have never seen such influx.
We are running rated BGs every week and very active and visible in TB, that can lure more players. But hey, we were even more visible in Wintergrasp, practically we ran the place and we haven't seen such influx.
The only thing we have now and did not have in WotLK are guild achievements. We have 1040, much more than any other guild on the ally side of the server. It is well placed in the advertisements on /trade. Of course it is not a scientific proof, and no one can provide one as it would need a control group: an equal "The PuG" somewhere with the same size, rules, PvP, PvE progression but without the achievements.
I'm fully aware that achievements are pointless and stupid. However as I wrote, achievements matter simply because socials think they do. Guild achievements work two ways for me: at first, it places the guild as a "good guild" into the corner of the mind of socials, making them think of us when they are guild shopping. Secondly, it make them feel bad about their current guild. Obviously it is not a conscious decision, no one will say "my guild has just 230 points, we suck, so I quit and go to The PuG". They will simply have an overall "we suck" feeling, that makes him more vulnerable to drama and less tolerant to other problems.
So the plan seems to work but I have a little problem: I'm running out of farmable achievements. There are 4 WotLK and 4 BC raids left, that's 120 points including the meta.
There are achievements like "craft 1500 epics", "catch 10000 fish", "do 50000 daily quests" that will be done by normal playing over time. It's pretty expensive to speed them up and completely pointless. We'll have them without effort, just have to wait.
The Cataclysm raiding and rated battleground achievements cannot be hurried, as they depend on progression.
However there are achievements that need individual effort or at least someone to go out of his way to have it. I cannot order anyone to do them, but can offer prize. So here is the list of achievements I pay for.
Legendaries: You need to have the legendary weapon and be honored with the guild. The prize is 5000G, after we get the achievement, you show me your item and your guild rep, proving it was your doing, and the money is yours. I cannot nominate anyone to "shadowmourne wielder", cannot force anyone to help you or even to not compete with you. You must get them on your own. But I pay you a nice prize!
Are you not entertained? 5000G
Stay classy bunch: They need a lvl 85 character from the class and race below with honored guild reputation. First to get them receives 1000G:
We have killed 2 bosses and only 5 alliance guild killed anything on this server, and the 4 others have attendance rules, so if one cannot dedicate certain days every week to raiding here, The PuG is his only choice. However we were the only choice in WotLK for anyone with attendance issues but aiming to hard modes, and we have never seen such influx.
We are running rated BGs every week and very active and visible in TB, that can lure more players. But hey, we were even more visible in Wintergrasp, practically we ran the place and we haven't seen such influx.
The only thing we have now and did not have in WotLK are guild achievements. We have 1040, much more than any other guild on the ally side of the server. It is well placed in the advertisements on /trade. Of course it is not a scientific proof, and no one can provide one as it would need a control group: an equal "The PuG" somewhere with the same size, rules, PvP, PvE progression but without the achievements.
I'm fully aware that achievements are pointless and stupid. However as I wrote, achievements matter simply because socials think they do. Guild achievements work two ways for me: at first, it places the guild as a "good guild" into the corner of the mind of socials, making them think of us when they are guild shopping. Secondly, it make them feel bad about their current guild. Obviously it is not a conscious decision, no one will say "my guild has just 230 points, we suck, so I quit and go to The PuG". They will simply have an overall "we suck" feeling, that makes him more vulnerable to drama and less tolerant to other problems.
So the plan seems to work but I have a little problem: I'm running out of farmable achievements. There are 4 WotLK and 4 BC raids left, that's 120 points including the meta.
There are achievements like "craft 1500 epics", "catch 10000 fish", "do 50000 daily quests" that will be done by normal playing over time. It's pretty expensive to speed them up and completely pointless. We'll have them without effort, just have to wait.
The Cataclysm raiding and rated battleground achievements cannot be hurried, as they depend on progression.
However there are achievements that need individual effort or at least someone to go out of his way to have it. I cannot order anyone to do them, but can offer prize. So here is the list of achievements I pay for.
Legendaries: You need to have the legendary weapon and be honored with the guild. The prize is 5000G, after we get the achievement, you show me your item and your guild rep, proving it was your doing, and the money is yours. I cannot nominate anyone to "shadowmourne wielder", cannot force anyone to help you or even to not compete with you. You must get them on your own. But I pay you a nice prize!
Are you not entertained? 5000G
Stay classy bunch: They need a lvl 85 character from the class and race below with honored guild reputation. First to get them receives 1000G:
- Human rogue
- Human hunter
- Night elf mage
- Gnome death knight
- Gnome priest
- Dwarf warlock
- Draenei mage
- Worgen warrior
22 comments:
Oh nifty, I got the We Are Legendary achievement for my guild about 2 hours ago. A bunch of the final mats I needed for the Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros went up on the AH for uber cheap, so I bought them up, borrowed enough gold for another ignot and gave a random BS in the guild the plans for the hammer. Made the hammer and voila. Too bad I don't get a gold prize!!! Darn...I want a prize now.
Hover the mouse over the points in your guild achievement page and you can see who got the achievement.
Another possible factor in the difference between pre and post expansion interest in the PUG is the expansion itself. In the dying months of WoTLK most people have done what they had set out to do in that expansion cycle, many let their accounts expire and generally few are looking to change guilds. In the wake of a new expansion there will be an influx of old players, lots of rerolls and many guilds collapsing. That leads to a lot more people looking for a new guild.
Having achievements seems likely to be one of the reasons many chose the Pug, but a 'rising tide raises all boats'. You probably would have got an increase in interest without them.
@Are you not entertained?: This will also be done by time since 2.2k rating is required for the t2 weapons in S9. And there will always be serious PvPers who like the arena more than BGs.
Maybe the 5k are a motivation for some of us but usual fee is 30-50k after proving at least being able to interrupt / hot / cc.
But hey, several teams are already above 2,2k. (little hint try the hours about 1:00-6:00 local time on weekend, you usually run into some drunk / exausted players if you want some easy rating)
Am I right that the title Challenger / Rival / Duelist / Gladiator would be worth nothing to you since it only gives an achievement if all types of classes earned it? (I know it´s like aiming for Sinestra to get a Gladiator but Challenger is doable with some motivation)
Oh and [Realm First! Guild Level 25] can still be done.
@Desolate: Challenger/duelist are yet unknown how hard, I can't put valuation on it.
Realm first guild lvl 25 is meaningless as every guild (except bankers) will be 25 on the same day or the next.
You can calculate the day up right now and set up some gold for everyone or only the number one in Guildexperience that day if the realmfirst is achieved.
Arena-titles are hard to aim anyway since they usually have a piece of randomness, since you have to study the arenaladder every day if you are going for a certain title (bans hackers and glad-sellers are very random values).
I´d say after gearing up (excluding t2-weapon) it would be 4 weeks work 2 hours a workday and after that 1-3 hours a week to keep the rating up to date. Speaking of an experienced 3 vs 3 team.
What an interesting post. You say "I'm fully aware that achievements are pointless and stupid. However as I wrote, achievements matter simply because socials think they do".
You are now actively doing "pointless and stupid" guild achievements to attract the people you call "socials" into your anti-social guild?
@Dácheng: of course. I want to show socials that being social is bad. So I first have to fish them out with a social lure from the M&S infested mud they are currently dwelling.
@Gevlon
You have long since lost any objectivity with this paid achievement thing. The 40 new accounts are because a freakin` expansion came out a month ago.
Where have you seen anyone looking for a guild with X achievement points? How many people even know how many achievement points other guilds have? AFAIK the only way to check is going to the armory and who does that just for achievement points?
What I often see in /2 is "LF lvl 10 guild" or something similar. That's because guild level means bonuses. Guild achievement points mean nothing. And socials know that - they are not retarded. No, they don't become grumpy about having less achievement points than others - they can't be arsed to check in the first place.
If you really want to attract players via achievements, go for the ones that do give bonuses, then advertise that you have guild cauldrons and Seafood Magnifique Feasts and whatnot.
P.S. Being social is not bad. Boosting M&S is bad. Most socials are as irritated by M&S as you are. Social does not mean "Pinko McFriendlyBoost". In fact boost-happy socials are as rare as proper M&S. With the overwhelming majority being reasonable social people who can damn well handle themselves in a heroic 5man.
@Gevlon
Every non-bankalt guild will not be level 25 the same day.
Some of the guilds with around 100 members my random alts are in are maybe reaching 1/3 or 1/2 of the daily cap lately, simply because of the main source of guild exp - leveling up 80-85 is running dry. The contribution from low levels is laughable, since it is proportional to quest exp reward.
@Grim:
You can believe that if you want to, and I can say with just as much evidence that back in my friendly social levelling guild in vanilla it wasn't at all uncommon to see "lf boost dm" and an hour or two later "thx for boost guys :)" - I was on both sides of that myself. You can explain that by saying "oh, but they were guildmates, and so friends, so that's different", but that's the point - you think those people are your friend, so you feel obliged to help them, but that's not really the case after all.
@Gevlon:
I rerolled a human paladin by the name of Eulera on Agamaggan to eventually play with the PuG, but I've decided to leave WoW alone for some time and so let my subscription run out. I forgot to leave the guild before that, though, so I'd be happy if you could remove me from the guild for me. (Failing that she isn't even level 20 yet, so she should be removed by inactivity soon anyway.)
I'll second what Jana said. At the beginning of the expansion everyone hit max daily exp cap for their guild. Now I'm seeing smaller guilds (like my current one) fail to hit that cap each day. Some days we do, and some days we don't.
I am surprised by your pricing for leveling an alt.
Going from 1-84 has got to take 24 hours of /played (and probably more like 48), representing an opportunity cost of 20,000 gold+ (probably more like 50k+ if the alt is a heroic capable trade skiller who could be getting gear instead).
A 1,000 G prize is paying someone who would have leveled that race/class anyway--and a waste of your gold.
@Anon
What exactly were you contesting? That most socials hate M&S?
That there exist boosts in social guilds does not mean anything about their tolerance of M&S or lack thereof. You said yourself that you have been on both sides of a boost. Ingame "friends" make sense over medium to long term where both sides help each other.
That's the difference between your random social and a M&S. The M&S will only ask for boosts and never give anything back.
Socials tend to get pretty pissed if they realize that they have boosted a M&S. That's an "unfair" transaction and unfair things piss socials off.
“Surprisingly, most of them are not readers of this blog rerolling, but lvl 85s coming from the server.”
Please clarify a bit. Are you implying that your readers are more likely to join by rerolling, and server transfers are non-readers?
You want to make your guild more attractive to socials? A big WTF? Aren't they the ones your trying to keep out? Your guild rules alone are enough to attract the non m&s. Anyone else is not really wanted in the first place.
Your achievement hunt is catering to the very casuals and socials you despise. The only people impresses by achievement points etc are the ones who will feel bad there guild doesn't have them. Do you want that kind of person in your guild? Seriously? Someone who attacks feelings to achievement points? What happens when my guild doe a server switch and all of a sudden there is a hc guild with more achievement points on the server? All those people will leave? (by your logic they only want to be in the guild cause of tue leet achievements?
@Grim:
What I meant, which I might not have properly conveyed, was not that friends boost friends, but that guildmates in a large, ostensibly friendly social guild, boost guildmates. This is of course all anecdotal, but my guild was a sort of 'national' guild intended for all people from my country. Therefore the guild was far too large for me to form meaningful bonds with all of it, but what happened when I asked for a boost in /g was that people I didn't really know, but who were in my guild, helped me out. Similarly I helped people I'd never spoken a word to. This was because I/they perceived us being guildmates as more of a meaningful bond than it really was, which fundamentally is how socials come to boost M&S.
What I meant to contest was that boost-happy socials were that rare, as most socials are perfectly willing to boost even the most dreadful moron as long as you frame it as "hey, can you help this poor new guildmate of yours out?" and not as "can you help this low-performing idiot?".
At least for me, the same sort of applies in real-life as well, I guess - I've helped classmates of mine with homework numerous times without any academical, monetary or social benefit to myself. When I think about it the only thing we have in common is sitting in the same room some hours every day - I'm certainly not remotely close friends with all the people I've helped, but I helped them precisely because I felt I 'had to' in the sense that the bond of classmateship compelled me to.
MMR is 2200 now in 3s, maybe I'll take up on that "Are you not entertained?" : ) we'll see.
@Anon
You have a point there - socials boost M&S while not having realized that they are M&S. However, even in large guilds they get identified quickly enough. (I'm also in a national guild - ~300 active accounts and I know most of our M&S by names)
Also - the socials who burn themselves on M&S get more careful and less boost-happy.
The truly pinko socials who will boost M&S while fully aware of what they are, are still extremely rare.
P.S. A tip for tanks in social guilds. You all probably get asked to tank HCs for guildies of various degrees of stupidity. Since they really need you and you don't really need them, you can turn this to your favour by demanding that you get the Chaos Orb in the end.
The idea came to me yesterday and the halfway-decent healer and 3 borderline-retarded dps happily agreed to let me take the orb in exchange for boosting them. The dps did around 6k on bosses and only got out of fire after being told to like 5 times, but the run was still faster than ~3 normal runs that would be necessary (on average) to get an orb in a normal group. So once you're JP-capped and rep-capped, this is the way to go.
@Realm first guild lvl 25
Patch 4.0.6 PTR Notes:
"Once a guild hits level 23, the daily cap on experience gained is removed."
LOL, haha, some people like to argue for nothing. I thought the whole idea of the PUG is that you're free to do anything you want. If someone wants to give you money why not take it?? If the idea is bad, then market forces will defeat it?? After all, before successful innovation, there must be some failures as well. The key is that PUG members are freely allowed to choose whether they want to follow through or not.
Learn to read and comprehend guys. There is a difference between the casuals Gev is trying to pull to the PuG and M&S. Gevlon explained why he is advertising the achievements, yet you still ponder about it.
Sure, it's a small thing with no visible status rewards like titles or pets or a mount, but subconsciously it will add to their feeling of inferiority. It will be small but those small things add up and they slip up, cause drama and test the patience of the casuals carrying these morons. Said patience will eventually crack and send them running to the PuG seen as there is no other alternative because the other '' semi-hardcore '' guilds all require 4-5 raid/week attendance.
You can implement this tactic on pretty much anything. I use it on the AH. While playing the AH I post and undercut on the most trivial and useless items that never or rarely sell. Items like glyph of the snake trap or [insert shit-ass gem that sells once a week here]. Sure I will lose the deposit + time if it doesn't sell. But if it does sell it will mean my competitors won't make money + lose time this can lead to them losing motivation > diminished posting frequency > more money for me. Also works great to quickly get rid of newcomers; after a week or two they will think the market is dead and try their luck elsewhere
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