Greedy Goblin

Thursday, January 13, 2011

I don't want to raid with morons and slackers!

Update: while I still consider the post below true, my opinion developed a lot, based on comments, final post will arrive on Monday.

I got extreme amount of trolls to the post where I described that I raid with the best available people. The believe that the PuG somehow "failed" as it couldn't provide good raiders.

These morons are another form of socialists. The socialists expect the state, the government, God, "the people" or "the market" to carry them. It does not necessarily mean that they do not wish to work at all, Marxists actually revered the menial work, their posters are filled with muscled men with big hammers. But they definitely don't want to think or organize. They want the state to give them daily-quest like simple tasks where success is guaranteed and with hours of mindless farming they can provide for themselves. The artificial world of WoW is designed to please socialists as they are the lowest common denominator. Quests on rails, daily quests, LFD, all designed that the player don't have to make choices, don't have to think, just farm hard.

My socialist trolls expect that The PuG should somehow magically conjure a fully prepared raid where one can join. While they may don't expect this raid to simply carry them, they believe that as long as they personally don't stand in the fire and do enough DPS, the boss will die.

No! The PuG cannot provide such. It provides a healthy environment where you can create this raid. What the PuG provides is protection from anti-market forces like "you must carry X since he is a nice guy", "Y is the little brother of Z, you can't insult him" or "if you criticize a friend, you are a mean guy and must leave".

Here you have all the tools you need to make a raid good:
  • You can openly criticize the preparation or performance of a player
  • You can openly try to take "his" spot. Imagine that you come online in a "freindly heplfull guild", find your team in a raid and say "Hi, I want to raid too, you know I did 15K last time, get me in, kick some low DPS guys".
  • You can refuse to raid if you think the current raid is hopelesss
  • You can get saved with /trade or with other guild that has a spot this week.
It's surprising that while everyone agrees that the main obstacle before a bosskill is the M&S holding the raid back, people feel entitled that some government or magical force removes that obstacle before them. No. It's your job to overcome this obstacle. Actually this is the point where WoW uses and teaches a real life skill: fighting M&S.

Defeating the M&S behavior during tries is the progress. Those who say "I don't want to do a single try with M&S" are lazy, self-entitled punks who do not deserve a bosskill as they refuse to do the most important thing in raiding: defeating the M&S. You want a bad player to be replaced? Identify him as an M&S and confront him. If he is just new, he will learn. If he is an M&S, you shall show everyone that he is one, and force him to improve or find a replacement. I did that, and the boss died.

In HC guilds there are selfless people who do this hard job. They are the officers who do the "battle with the M&S" part. The simple members just raid the same way as they do the Tol Barad dailies. The raid leader (questgiver) give them their job, they perform it, they get rewarded. They don't even have to think of the hours of work that the officers did to prepare the raid. The officers are carrying them and they don't even notice it: "lol i was #1 dps ima l33t". Pressing your buttons is easy, a trained monkey can do that. Running when DBM shouts "run little girl" also don't need great skills. (the fact that most players are at the level of an untrained monkey, doesn't change that) Cleaning the raid from M&S behavior is the hard task.

Obviously I don't mean that in the raids I am, I'm not doing it as hard as I can. But I'm unable to do it for everyone. It's everyone's task to battle the M&S in the raid. Inspect, read recount, ask, speak! Give advices, recognize mistakes, teach or find replacements. I'm not an expert to other classes, while I can recognize an ungemmed slacker, I don't know if a haste-gemmed destruction warlock is good player or just bought the cheapest gems in the AH.

If you don't want to do this job, go to a HC guild where selfless officers carry your lazy ass until they burn out, making the guild die in weeks, leaving you with no guild.

How could slackers get into the guild at all? At first because some of them are really just new and inexperienced. Also, because slacking is the goblinish thing to do. People do the least necessary effort. They will stop slacking when you make them stop. I did and my raid killed bosses. The guild rules can keep the morons out, the ones who are unable to improve. To make the unwilling improve, is everyone's challenge.


Anonymous said...

'Those who say "I don't want to do a single try with M&S" are lazy, self-entitled punks who do not deserve a bosskill as they refuse to do the most important thing in raiding: defeating the M&S'
Actually, that perfectly describe them, they are slackers so they too are the M&S.

Kudlatek said...

I can say that letting "morons" into the raid is a great thing to do, if you hope that they will improve. Of course kicking them after a few tries is also a required thing to do if a their performance is low.
From my point of view, as an hopefully improving moron, I can say that even 2-3 tries on a raid boss can show you a lot of things. Like a need of more key binds, few macros, and a whole lot of a practice, preferably joined with more gearing up.
After this 2-3 tries it shows if I'm able to do my job or not and kick me if I'm wasting 9 other people time.

spinksville said...

"In HC guilds there are selfless people who do this hard job. They are the officers who do the "battle with the M&S" part"

Yup. I think you're spot on. And the players feel as though they are the hard core, superior ones.

And if those hard working officers take a week off or fail to run a raid or two, some of those players immediately take off for a new hardcore raid. Because 'their expectations' have not been met.

So maybe, if you really want to stop enabling that behaviour, people need to be encouraged to stop being officers or raid leaders in that type of guild. Except that one of the main reasons people do it in the first place is so that THEY can have the sorts of raids they want on tap.

Jumina said...

Your description of an HC guild is incorrect. Yes the officers battle the M&S but its much more easier in HC guild. The reason is the same as in PuG - the rules. If you don't have proper spec, gems or enchants you are not invited. If you behaviour, attendance or performance is bad - bye/kick. Real HC guilds can last for years because of these hard rules.
The golden rule for selecting members of your raid is: choose people who want to raid. Our guild is one year old now. Half of the members of the raid changed during the time but there is still good atmosphere and people actually try to solve problems during our progress. They were happy when we killed Nefarian and moved from 9th to 6th place on our server . And yet we raid only 3 times a week. I do not think we are actually an HC guild or exceptional players. The rules are protecting guilds like us in the same manner as they are protecting the PuG.

Samus said...

"slacking is the goblinish thing to do. People do the least necessary effort."

You could argue that trying to get YOU to take care of the M&S is the goblinish thing to do, since they are right to try and shove that work off on you.

Gevlon said...

@Samus: indeed, but I bounce the work back as much I can.

Ðesolate said...

@the officer-thing: Since class-officers are usually there to train and instruct their class-members and do all the theorycrafting for them, yes they are carrying them. I had such a position in end BT / start SWP and it´s quite annoying (yep we broke apart pre-wotlk).

I can say of myself that I use Guides and discussions and proven wow-ingame formulas to calculate my inBrain-priority lists and specs. So I collect all the Information with the help of other people, who carry me by that? (just taking the argument one step to far)

I get your point as many HC-Raiding guilds have few really interestet theorycrafters and many followers. At the start of ICC I´ve been a member of an eletist guild that had mostly eletistjerksfanatics in their rank.

As a person with some mathmatic skills that guild was a real pain. It actually felt like talking to M&S who accidentally read the right newspaper since they proved to be unable to think on their own and beeing helpless at the start of each class change.

M&S-Thing: One thing is a bit disturbing at your post today. If I fail on a Boss since I don´t know his mechanics and the aquired actions in detail by haven´t encountered him yet I´d be a M&S?
Clearly if I read some Guides and the Bossabilities on WoWHead or WOWpedia I´ll be prepared, but still I will not know the fight itself, so I will perform less than an experienced slayer of that Boss.

After 2-3 trys maybe I´d perform better and miss no critical event so I become average, changing the class role or the Boss would get me back to M&S status...

...I personally must say it´s quite a difference between M&S and locally unexperienced. If I see someone dieing in a big blinking red Spot he´s an M&S. If he dies from dispelling Valiona´s Blackout standing alone, since he wanted to help the healer, he´s simply unexperienced but skillful. Well reading the debuffs could help but in a stressful bossfight encountered the first or second time...

...maybe my personal failure at interpreting your posts is that I define M&S by people who are clearly "morons" or refusing to improve. A newbie is another kind of player for me, since he is encuraged and willing to learn. But divergence (mine) is normal.

Bobbins said...

'The socialists expect the state, the government, God, "the people" or "the market" to carry them'
Actually it is capitalists that expects to be carried by the market. If that market fails the limited liability of companies allows them to move on with no consequence.

'Marxists actually revered the menial work' as opposed to capitalist who expect to be paid for the work of others. Actually even today we still need farmers, engineers, builders, etc. It is a classic example of how little we value the essential service 'manual labour' (not menial labour) brings to the world that people demean it. Sad really I suppose.

tobbelobb said...

In all places where work is not distributed and people are not shepherded into doing it, most people will wait for "someone" to do the work for them. I don't know this "someone", and this work has a tendency to not get done.

Anonymous said...

Samus makes an interesting observation that "trying to get [Gevlon] to take care of the M&S is the goblinish thing to do". Gevlon responds, saying that he "bounce[s] the work back" as much as he can.

Going further, wouldn't any smart and self-interested observer of the situation (in Gevlon's terms, a goblin) look elsewhere for a better deal? They're sure to find it on most servers.

So, if the goblins will go elsewhere, Gevlon isn't recruiting goblins; he is recruiting M&S or, at best, socials.

Riptor said...

May I ask what passes as a HC Guild for you? I have read the strangest Definitions on this Topic. It goes from “Players online for more than 20 hours a week” to “arrange their life around WoW” and so forth. If you just go by the wording, a hc Guild must do the hc Modes of Bossfights but that also doesn’t cut it as even Paragon would not have been an hc Guild for the first two Weeks of the Addon.
I guess the wider spread your own definition of “hc Guild” is, the easier it gets to fit your cliché. I have played in some top ranked Guilds anywhere between Worldrank 30 and 300 and I really have not encountered these Mechanics you describe. In most Cases there was an Officer Core and about 10-15 Core Members that pushed the raid. The more of these Core Members a Guild had, the more successful it became. If too many Core Members quit or left, the Guild would eventually wither and die.
However, one thing I have never encountered and also never done myself in a hc Guild. Theroycrafting for others. Maybe I have just always been in those very special Guilds but from my yearlong experience in Top Guilds I can say that “cutthroat” is the first Thing that comes to mind.
Especially in the DPS Section there are always way more Players than Slots and while you eventually make Friends with Guys you see eye-to-eye with (skillwise) most others are Competitors against whom you always try to have the upper hand by just getting that extra notch that puts you ahead of them.
Or maybe this is a specialty of Mages but I never had a Class Officer that told me how to gear/socket/enchant/skill my Char. However, if I performed way better than him/her and found flaws in his Gameplay I would take his Raidspot and Post within the Guild if possible. As opposed to many other Guilds, the Officers in Top Guilds are also the best Players within it. If Members start to outplay their Officer he will not be able to hold his Position for very long.

While I admire your various Projects over the last few years and also agree with many of your ideas I really disagree with that one. In the early days of the PUG you wrote that it is supposed to be a counter to Social and Casual Guilds. So why suddenly the hc bashing? The PUG does not seem to compete with Top Guilds and it also does not seem to be the recruiting Ground for those Guilds. So why the special Snowflake Post?

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: they won't really find better deals, because there is a commonly used system that "the helpful officers" use to decrease their workload: attendance requirement.

By demanding high attendance, the guild size can be kept low, therefore less members must be screened against being an M&S. So you actually have to participate in cleaning the raid from the M&S, in a very unpleasant way: you must fill the spot even if you don't want to, saving the officer the work to find someone into that spot.

Jumina said...

Attendance requirement is there not for lazy officers but for the need of a stable team. If you want to have fast progress you need people who will have at least 80% attendance. That is the price. You invite people with gear and experience because you don't have to farm equip for them or explain them tactics. This is completely asocial environment.

Riptor said...

@ Gevlon: It's very difficult to hold the Balance of how many Members are required. Usually it is somewhere between 33 and 37 active Raiders that give you a good Position to work with.
Also high Attendance is normal. If you join a hc Raiding Guild that raids four Nights a Week, what use are you to this Guild if you can only be online two of those Nights? None, you are useless for Progress because if you are only available half the time and there are basically two Players needed to fill one Spot.
Top Guilds are not a petting Zoo. You can be the best player in the World, but if you can only Raid two Days a week, have a crappy PC or constant Disconnects due to cheap/crappy internet you are useless to the Raid and will therefore not be able to hold your Position for very long or even get the Chance to join.
The “helpful” Officer is there to support the Raidleader when it comes to Class- or Role specific Tasks in a Bossfight. If you think a successful hc Raider does so without researching each encounter, somewhat theorycrafting his Class and analyzing Web Stats/Logs you are just blatantly mistaken/wrong. Of course you need a good Raidlead as he/she is usually the one with the most profound overall knowledge and the ability to see how an encounter needs to be done but within the Clases you need Specialists that know and are able to play their Class to the fullest. If those were M&S they would not make it there. Especially as everybody is looking for those potential below-guild-average Players. Players that are in those Top Guilds want to be there. They just like to raid and want to do this in the most professional Environment possible. If there is a Player that Jeopardizes a Bosskill or in general a Raidnight there are probably 24 others demanding him being kicked.

You should make this your next Project: Do the 4.1 Content in a Worldrank 1-200 Guild. Just to be able to really grasp what it means to be in one of those Guilds and what is or is not required/done/handled by Officers and Members.

Lars Norberg said...

This post is just dead on accurate on all accounts.

The trend you see in all social raiding guilds, is that of denial. People will deny it was their fault the raid wiped. They will blame it on "not enough gear", "bugged encounter", "too many melee", "too many casters", "too few healers" <<-- seen that a bit too many times, usually from people standing in the whelp pits at Ony, AoEing, wondering why they're getting so much aggro all the time. And last but not least, the typical social raider will with a snotty remark say that "he/she didn't do anything wrong, so it's not his/hers fault".

Newsflash: EVERYBODY is responsible! If you see a person standing in the whelp pit and don't do anything about it, you're as guilty as that person! If you rely on the raid leader to announce abilities, you're holding the raid back. Even if the raid leader perfectly announces everything, it will never be as good as if everybody keeps track of things themselves. Why not? Latency. By the time the raid leader has reacted, called out, and the message has reached you, seconds have passed. If you had kept track yourself, you would already have moved by the time the raid leader's message reached you. And this is what separates good raiders from bad raiders. The good make it their personal responsibility to ensure success. They don't wait for the raid leader, Blizzard, the government, the society or God to hand it to them. They act upon what they see, and always seek to improve and learn. Because there is always more to learn, and all criticism is good.

The social raiders want a teaclub where everybody loves them, and pats them on the back for anything and everything. To them everything is personal. Tell them to move faster, or do something different, chances are they'll be whispering somebody that you're harsh, spreads bad mood, and that you're just jealous of something. At times you're not sure whether you should bring raid tactics or a diaper change, because quite frankly the general behavior in social raiding guilds reminds me very much of that in a kindergarden. It's a constant job of patting them on their backs, cleaning up their mess, repeating the same commands hundreds of times over, because they will forget it the instant you've said it, and last by not least you have to watch your every gesture, every word, so you don't accidentally step on somebody's precious feelings.

Yeah, I hate social raiding guilds.

Andrei said...

"...Marxists actually revered the menial work, their posters are filled with muscled men with big hammers. But they definitely don't want to think or organize."

Any historical references supporting Marxists not wanting to think or organize? And how did bolsheviks who were extreme flavor of Marxism managed to win in Russia in 1917 against all odds if not for careful planning and brilliant tactics?

Josh said...

That one's easy, Andrei. The controlling class did plan, of course. Gevlon was saying that mentality it takes to be happy as a serf under communism is a desire nerf personal responsibility.

A willingness to trade opportunity and potential for a sinecure. Unfortunately for such people, it doesn't reliably work out that way.

Jumina said...


"...Marxists actually revered the menial work, their posters are filled with muscled men with big hammers. But they definitely don't want to think or organize."

I can give you my personal experience because I lived in a marxists state. And the above statement is 100% true. They always said they are doing everything for working class. But the ones who ruled were lazy power hungry idiots. Like M&S they want social recognition but no work. That is why the soviet empire colapsed colapsed. They can sometimes organize bunch of thugs with guns zerging incompetent government (anyone ever seen competent government?) but nothing more.

chewy said...

What struck me with todays post, which I whole heartedly agree with, is that you're crying out for leaders. You're describing what is available and why it works but you're not reporting success other than your own - where you lead.

So your next logical step would be to inspire leaders, such that they can take the environment you've created and develop success.

spinksville said...

Chewy: I think he's trying to create an environment where people are encouraged to lead.