Greedy Goblin

Tuesday, November 16, 2010

Cash flow, voice communication

One of the guild perks is cash flow. Rank 1 is available at glvl 5, rank 2 is at glvl 16. Their effect is that 5 and 10% of the gold you loot is deposited to the guild bank. One of the rules of The PuG is "No guild bank, use the AH". We don't have a single bank tab, we don't deposit items "for the guild", everyone handles his business alone.

However this gold will just keep coming and it would be silly to just let it rot there. So I rather just ninja it all, after all I made this guild! ... Kidding, obviously. The gold needs a simple, non-bureaucratic way of distribution. There is one:
It makes guildbank repair available to everyone. There is a 5G limit currently, if the gold starts to accumulate, I'll elevate this limit. I'll elevate it to the point where the gold in the bank stagnates around 1K. It's simple, zero-administration method of distribution and the gold cannot be "ninjaed" as you can only use it for repairs.

There is a problem though, if your repair bill is 6G, you can't press this button and get 5G worth of repairs, you have to manually repair your items one by one until the bill falls below 5G. This inconvenience will stop many from using it, increasing the amount in the bank (making me increase the limit). However the lowbies can enjoy its benefits early. So, enjoy the free repairs!

I found a way to allow voice communication and different loot system usage in the guild without changing the reasons that made me implement their ban. This way the guild-in-guild system can be used and we can incorporate smaller raiding guilds and arena teams for mutual benefit.

Voice communication and different than gold-bid loot distribution systems are forbidden in activities that are formed using the guild chat and the guild calendar. Also, any kind of group formation is forbidden on the official chit-chat channel "/casual" (it is for chit-chat, and no one can miss a group opportunity for not reading chit-chat).

You can join or form any group activities as long as they are formed in /w or on /trade /general, LFD, 3rd party forum and such. This is merely an extension of the usual practice that guild members join /trade pugs with /roll and sometimes vent. Such group activities are considered /trade pugs, even if populated by 100% guild members.

Again: the reason of banning vent is to avoid annoying voice chit-chat (harder to screenshot than written "meg fox is sooo hot lol") and carrying M&S "arthasdklol get out of the fire!". I won't let average members to be forced to put up with this crap. The official guild activities are free from these, providing lol and boost-free activities for the members. If you choose to join a /trade pug, that's your call with all consequences (read: if the RL ninjaed, don't come to me for justice as I can't care less what /trade RLs do).

According to this change the "LF 10 men raiding guild" post is amended and "guild in guild system" post is considered obsolete. The rules page updated to these changes.

Steal Beard found this gem:


Anonymous said...

How is this not welfare? Only newbies are going to find the gold amount useful, specifically M&S newbies that die constantly. The amount of gold they're able to put in is completely out of proportion with the amount of gold they're able to take out.

Kuckuck said...

Could have different ammounts for different ranks.
But the gold will be created regardless of who is in the guild.

David said...

It would be quite simple to write an addon that withdraws all gold above X, splits it equally and auto-mails a share to Y-list of people. All you have to do is step up to the guild bank once a week, then step up to a mailbox. All necessary API calls can be automated as they do not require hardware events to execute.

Equally painless to administer, but doesn't inconvenience higher level characters - who will be the majority of the guild sooner or later.

Squishalot said...

People at end-game who die constantly won't be able to leech enough gold from it. Newbies aren't going to use that much gold for repairs in the first place. It may be welfare, but it saves Gevlon the time for managing the wealth, making it justified (cost saved by not needing to manage > cost of apportioning the wealth in proportion to contribution).

The alternative is not to use the money at all, which would be wasteful - a far worse crime.

Magma said...

Anonymous, what are you smoking? Lowbie repairs cost almost nothing. It's a complete joke. Nevermind you're ignoring the fact that money from EVERY LOOTED MOB goes to the pool. Which means that even the lowbie helps out the money pool.

Anonymous said...

I didn't think you would be in favor of a flat tax.

Having it be for repairs seems silly. Not like it is hard to plan for that.

I could see it for use in guild raids, for things like cauldrons, since it is cheaper to produce those than individual flasks, or resistance elixirs for strats that need them.

Oshen said...

Good, sounds like a solution to me.
I guess that guids-inside-the-guild can also use a 3rd party callendar addon that is not synchronising with Blizzard Callendar in order to setup raids within their group.

Also I fully support keeping /g chat clean.

Andru said...

Or he could just take it for himself.

I disagree with you Gevlon. I know you want to encourage new players playing lowbies to join your guild, but you will get what you pay for: i.e. newbies that die a lot.

Far easier would be to just take the gold, use it for whatever you want, and claim that it's helping the guild, by providing funds to experiment with new AH techniques that you're going to put on your blog, or whatever.

The money that comes is not technically welfare, since it would not exist had the person not be in a social constuct (a guild) in the first place.

Anonymous said...

so how does that work exactly? if i loot 10g, will an additional 11th gold be deposited in the bank or will i lose 1g (aka loot 9g with 1g to the bank)?

Riptor said...

Blizzards Bureau for Equality amongst all special Snowflakes has adjusted the Rep Costs for all Amour Classes. So, if Mr. Vendor has to sow some Patches onto my Cloth Robes it now costs me exactly the same Amount as our Tank pays for his Repairs (Not sure if that’s also the Case on Live already as I have not really raided and died there since 4.0).
A full Rep on Beta costs me somewhere between 149 and 197g, depending on how many Items are Red. 5g would let me repair my Wand. My Suggestion would be that you let the Gold on your Guildbank stockpile until say 80% of all Members have reached 85. Then open Guild Repair with a Reasonable Amount.

Gevlon said...

@first anonymous: the gold the lowbies loot is in proportion to their repair cost. The only one who just gets and not gives are the raiders who wipe (lot of repair, nothing to loot)

@David: that would be welfare as lowbies get more than they give in. Also inactives would get without contributing while inactives don't repair.

@Squishalot: and also it saves me from being accused for favoritism. Any system benefits some more than others and these others will be upset. This way they can be upset with Blizzard for the different repair costs.

@Next anonymous: gauldron buying would be a definite money transfer from non-raiders to raiders. The people in the raid should pay for the gauldron from the raid pot.

@Anonymous: the repair money has no incentive as it is not wealth. If you purposefully die a lot just to get more repairs, you griefed the guild but got absolutely no personal gain.

@last Anonymous: it's the 11th gold

Visalyar said...

@Andru: I think that would destroy one of the PuG´s most important rules. "There are no officers, everyone are equal" Even Gevlon is not allowed to chitchat in /g, use ratarted names or lolshit in /g & /raid. It is very important to stay on neutral ground, because the PuG´s member earn what they get. Everyone works for himself and not to boost anyone (you get paid...).

If Gevlon would simply take the gold to "experiment with new AH techniques" what do I get from the Gold I get him? I´m not interested how you could earn 20k/h by using inscription or leatherworking (have no scribe or leatherworker).

By every move he makes as the leader of the PuG Gevlon must prove, that he accepts the "everyone are equal"-rule. Nobody would take him serious if he goes for direct personal benefit by leeching off the members.

Gevlon said...

@Riptor: the amount is auto-adjusting. If it's small compared to the loot of the people, it will be risen. Also, you don't have to wait with repairs until broken to red.

Blastoise said...

Wouldn't be unfair that people who raid more than others or go to more 5-man dungeons contribute more to the guild bank with this cash flow and don't get the proportional reward?

Fubuar said...

I have to say whilst this may be the easy way to do things I dont like the sound of it, even thought the extra income would not harm my personal loot.

I think there must be another way to make better use of this gold.

Investment banking anyone?

Gevlon said...

@Blastoise: yes, someone who produce more than the daily repair cap is at the loss. Someone is always at the loss. The only fair system would be a switch on the guild bank: "bounce the gold back to the guy who earned it".

@Fubuar: who make the investment decisions? He is playing with other people's gold. Why him? Why not others? Please remember that here we are talking about spare change that simply don't worth the effort.

Bobbins said...

Why not just let the gold amass and use it as a measure of guild activity. More gold more activity. Its the greedy thing to do. Wouldn't you be more likely to join a guild with a million gold in the bank rather than a 5g repair limit?

On another thought what do you think of cash flow? I do not agree with it as it gives something for doing nothing.

Gevlon said...

@Bobbins: doing nothing gets 0 gold via cash flow. And who decides what to do with all the gold in the bank? Is that just sits there?

Riptor said...

@ Gevlon: That’s true, you don’t have to wait until all items are Red but it sometimes occurs. For Example in Blackwing Descent has its Rep Hub on the Bottom of the Mountain. So for Times Sake the whole Raid goes to Rep and leaves the Instance (If a Mammoth is available it’s considerably faster), Repair and go back in. Usually this is done every 4-5 Wipes, considering your Guild is already leveled so you loose less Durability and that BD has an Elevator of Doom (One like you have not seen before) that will inevitably cause many Players to die over and over again.
I just wanted to point out, the Repping in Cata is very expensive if compared to the Costs especially Cloth Wearers are used to. Aprox 180g for a full Rep with the max Reputation based Discount a Goblin can get. And Bosses kill fast in Cata, especially on heroic mode….

David said...

Re: dividends, welfare & inactives

The subject under discussion is, essentially, paying dividends on a revenue stream. This is not a new problem, it has been solved in the real world. Why not apply real world solutions?

The objections you have raised are not insurmountable problems, they have straightforward technical solutions. For example, adjust share amount by level, don't send to players inactive over X days.

Wildhorn said...

Some idea of how the gold could be used:
- to pay Feast/Cauldron for raids
- a lottery at the end of each week
- repairs
- to pay raid booster (when it will happens)

Visalyar said...

"For example, adjust share amount by level, don't send to players inactive over X days."
I´ll log in every day to leech off the system.
- to pay Feast/Cauldron for raids
I´m not into PvE anymore, so people like me would be "bend over"?
- a lottery at the end of each week
I think luck is in gold the same as in raids...
- repairs
At least everyone gets somethin and mor the more active he is...
- to pay raid booster (when it will happens)
PvE-Thing and I think the boosted should pay.

The repair-system is the easiest to control and to establish. Everything else (working out "system X" and rolling it) would take time from Gevlon, something every member decides on his own (how many time you spend ingame).
I´d recomment keeping a system simple instead of finding a overcomplexed "perfect" system (btw. thats the reason why there is no direct democracy).

The Gnome of Zurich said...

All the suggestions about what might be marginally fairer require a lot more work from someone to manage, than simply setting and adjusting a limit on guild repairs.

I agree with Gevlon's solution, even if it's far from perfect and not even especially satisfying. Yes it provides a minor subsidy to people who die too much at low levels, but there's no way to abuse it for profit, so there's no incentive problem. (even raiders who wipe all night probably generate a fair bit of loot from trash clearing, and unless the guild bank is overflowing with this gold, they won't get all their repair bills paid by it, while a leveling character who hardly ever dies (i.e. anybody competent who doesn't constantly push their level) probably does.

The only way you could realistically "take advantage" would be at lower levels. Maybe it would encourage soloing dungeons at level and such marginally, since your wipes would be paid for. But really, do repair costs keep anybody from doing this? I doubt it.

Forreststump said...

There is something that, sadly, is missing from the chat exerpt:

[11:17:00] Cast detected: Misdirection
[11:17:08] Healdragon has died.

Tonus said...

As I understand it, it is not a portion of the gold looted that is sent to the guild bank. It is an additional amount that is generated and stored in the guild bank. So it is not really taking out of player A's pocket in order to allow Player B to repair, though Player A's effort does provide the funds that Player B may use.

It's a good system that Gevlon devised as long as he follows through with his plan to adjust the amount as needed. After a while you should reach a point of equilibrium, where most people will be able to repair using bank funds at least some of the time, while keeping the money from running out.

Anonymous said...

i have to look it up at home since it's blocked from work: but is there no way to just not skill this one and take something else instead?
the problem is: nobody profits, which creates a fair but suboptimal solution (socials i hear you scream).

chewy said...

A perfect example that gold has no intrinsic value. It only has value as a means of trading, it is but a token, devoid of worth of it cannot be exchanged.

This example is "found" money, almost like an inheritance. Ok, it's come from other players but neither Gevlon nor anyone else (outside Blizzard) has any control over its accumulation.

Giving it away in repairs does feel like wealth redistribution, almost social democracy, since those capable will be able to afford their own repairs.

I would propose a random, none contributory lottery. Roll a number randomly between 1 to n where n represents the number of guild members online at that moment and give the whole lot to one member who's name corresponds to the random number. Do it once a week/month whatever time period you like.

Thereby you have an incentive to be in the guild and online at a given time, you might just get lucky (and Gevlon gets a method of encouraging people to be there when he needs them for something).

Yaggle said...

The most interesting thing to do with the gold would be to do nothing with it at all. Let it just keep building up, and wait and see what sorts of things your guildmembers say about it. It could be an experiment in psychology to see how people react to it just staying there and growing, and growing. If anybody complains that you are keeping it for yourself, you can tell them that it belongs to the whole guild but you are undecided what it will be used for. Since all items in the Wow economy become cheaper as time goes on, the whole guild will be better off the longer it sits there, anyways.

Anonymous said...

Why not use the cash to incentivize particular kinds of behavior? For example, getting guild first kills, doing a difficult or otherwise unrewarding job in WG, or writing addons? Repair money does nothing to encourage good or discourage bad.

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: who am I to decide what is "good" and "bad"?

Caramael said...

I agree with Yaggle. Just let it pile up.

Whichever way you use it, it will be implicit redistribution of wealth, which seems very much undesirable.

Or, distribute it in the exact same proportions to the contributors, taking a cut yourself for the job of distributing. Maybe it can be automated with a macro or addon.

Breevok said...

Solution Seems simple to me - from your own rules "Rerollers get 100G start money at lvl 19 (60 for DKs)."

There's your money sink for your guild contributions

Anonymous said...

Gevlon asks:

"who am I to decide what is "good" and "bad"?"

You are the guild leader, a formal position of power with total control over who is an acceptable or unacceptable member of the guild. Furthermore, as linked in the original post, you have a set of rules for The PuG. (Rules typically are a way to codify 'good' and 'bad') Presumably your rules were not chosen arbitrarily; you selected them encourage things that you believe are good and to discourage things you believe are bad. If you want it to be, the gold can be part of the incentive system (ie, the rules) you have developed for the guild.

Gevlon said...

@Breevok: that's my 100G, I spend it on aid to lowbies as I want. However spending OTHER PEOPLE's money would be taxing&welfare.

Kuckuck said...

Over a long period of time, a lottery would have the same effect as a redistribution to all members and would likely be more time consuming and prone to error anyway.

Redistribution would take much time doing nothing that could be used to sell or craft a few more items.

Kurt said...

I see a lot of suggestions in this thread to redistribute the money to those that earn it. Imagine a guild with active 500 members. running instances right after cata drops, it's not unfeasible to imagine they average 4000 monsters killed in instances in a day. That's 2 million shares of gold drops, possibly. Does anyone in beta know how this is tracked? Is the gold added in as it drops, without a message? Is the total per day listed? I cannot imagine that Blizzard just adds in 2 million lines a day, per such guild, to a viewable log, nor would it be very feasible to extract such data from a viewable log in a timely fashion.

Without any information as to how this data will be displayed, half of the suggestions in this thread are completely useless. There's no compelling reason for me to formulate an opinion on this subject absent this information--no benefit is gained therewith. I am just amused at how people already regard this extra 10% as "theirs by right". Guess what--if there's no tracking at all as to who earned the gold, it's not yours, and it never was.

Breevok said...

Gevlon - you aren't taxing other peoples money. They loot 10g whether in guild or not. The 1g is magically created by the game for the guild - its the guilds gold and not anything to do with the player. If the guild didn't exist the 1g wouldn't either.

By you considering the gold as other peoples gold, then you consider the guild to be made up of the sum of its members. If the members are the guild, then logic would decree that the money created by the members should be of benefit to the members, which is already an ideal of the guild in your 100g fund. Why add a secondary benefit of guild repairs?

Whether it comes from you (charity from the GM) or from the guild (charity from the guild itself) makes no difference. Except charity from an individual appears a rather odd concept from a goblin.

jaakkeli said...

One simple solution to this would be to simply let everyone have unlimited repairs. It would constantly keep the guild bank empty as as soon as someone would see the guild repair button up they would of course drain the bank empty but that would simply be a way of "lottering" away the money. In a large guild the cash flow should build up to the average repair bill few times per hour, maybe even every few minutes, and you'd just have your chance to get lucky every time you repair.

Of course this would still favour some people. A lowbie questing in his starter town with his 6 copper repair bill would have a much higher chance of seeing the guild repair button up than a lvl 85 who spent an hour wiping in a dungeon finder Cataclysm heroic. Some people wait longer to repair than others and their bills are larger and they'd have a lesser chance of finding the repair button up. Some who are absolutely terrible at making gold might end up camping the repair button...

It would also favour those who simply play more than others but then, those people are also the ones that produce the most gold through cash flow so this would be a crude approximation of giving the money to those who produced it.

Bobbins said...

'And who decides what to do with all the gold in the bank? Is that just sits there?'

I was suggesting using the gold to enhance the status of the guild. Of course nobody spends the money the point is the guild members have money in the bank. Its a status thing.
Probably based on the million pound bank note. Ref