tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post3359256609174005128..comments2024-02-27T14:44:07.868+01:00Comments on Greedy goblin: Cash flow, voice communicationGevlonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-82542055386918410222010-11-17T13:56:02.963+01:002010-11-17T13:56:02.963+01:00@Gevlon
'And who decides what to do with all t...@Gevlon<br />'And who decides what to do with all the gold in the bank? Is that just sits there?'<br /><br />I was suggesting using the gold to enhance the status of the guild. Of course nobody spends the money the point is the guild members have money in the bank. Its a status thing.<br />Probably based on the million pound bank note. Ref http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Million_Pound_Bank_NoteBobbinsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-30544756930427951932010-11-17T03:40:25.467+01:002010-11-17T03:40:25.467+01:00One simple solution to this would be to simply let...One simple solution to this would be to simply let everyone have unlimited repairs. It would constantly keep the guild bank empty as as soon as someone would see the guild repair button up they would of course drain the bank empty but that would simply be a way of "lottering" away the money. In a large guild the cash flow should build up to the average repair bill few times per hour, maybe even every few minutes, and you'd just have your chance to get lucky every time you repair.<br /><br />Of course this would still favour some people. A lowbie questing in his starter town with his 6 copper repair bill would have a much higher chance of seeing the guild repair button up than a lvl 85 who spent an hour wiping in a dungeon finder Cataclysm heroic. Some people wait longer to repair than others and their bills are larger and they'd have a lesser chance of finding the repair button up. Some who are absolutely terrible at making gold might end up camping the repair button...<br /><br />It would also favour those who simply play more than others but then, those people are also the ones that produce the most gold through cash flow so this would be a crude approximation of giving the money to those who produced it.jaakkelinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-84089570883506164022010-11-17T01:20:31.366+01:002010-11-17T01:20:31.366+01:00Gevlon - you aren't taxing other peoples money...Gevlon - you aren't taxing other peoples money. They loot 10g whether in guild or not. The 1g is magically created by the game for the guild - its the guilds gold and not anything to do with the player. If the guild didn't exist the 1g wouldn't either.<br /><br />By you considering the gold as other peoples gold, then you consider the guild to be made up of the sum of its members. If the members are the guild, then logic would decree that the money created by the members should be of benefit to the members, which is already an ideal of the guild in your 100g fund. Why add a secondary benefit of guild repairs?<br /><br />Whether it comes from you (charity from the GM) or from the guild (charity from the guild itself) makes no difference. Except charity from an individual appears a rather odd concept from a goblin.Breevokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13007745955089390880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-33165075302374523202010-11-17T00:54:39.052+01:002010-11-17T00:54:39.052+01:00I see a lot of suggestions in this thread to redis...I see a lot of suggestions in this thread to redistribute the money to those that earn it. Imagine a guild with active 500 members. running instances right after cata drops, it's not unfeasible to imagine they average 4000 monsters killed in instances in a day. That's 2 million shares of gold drops, possibly. Does anyone in beta know how this is tracked? Is the gold added in as it drops, without a message? Is the total per day listed? I cannot imagine that Blizzard just adds in 2 million lines a day, per such guild, to a viewable log, nor would it be very feasible to extract such data from a viewable log in a timely fashion.<br /><br />Without any information as to how this data will be displayed, half of the suggestions in this thread are completely useless. There's no compelling reason for me to formulate an opinion on this subject absent this information--no benefit is gained therewith. I am just amused at how people already regard this extra 10% as "theirs by right". Guess what--if there's no tracking at all as to who earned the gold, it's not yours, and it never was.Kurthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08064568916740238502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-73539360108001828502010-11-16T23:55:06.376+01:002010-11-16T23:55:06.376+01:00Over a long period of time, a lottery would have t...Over a long period of time, a lottery would have the same effect as a redistribution to all members and would likely be more time consuming and prone to error anyway.<br /><br />Redistribution would take much time doing nothing that could be used to sell or craft a few more items.Kuckucknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-30826923090482844022010-11-16T21:18:21.355+01:002010-11-16T21:18:21.355+01:00@Breevok: that's my 100G, I spend it on aid to...@Breevok: that's my 100G, I spend it on aid to lowbies as I want. However spending OTHER PEOPLE's money would be taxing&welfare.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-21806052404273161622010-11-16T21:09:00.573+01:002010-11-16T21:09:00.573+01:00Gevlon asks:
"who am I to decide what is &qu...Gevlon asks:<br /><br />"who am I to decide what is "good" and "bad"?"<br /><br />You are the guild leader, a formal position of power with total control over who is an acceptable or unacceptable member of the guild. Furthermore, as linked in the original post, you have a set of rules for The PuG. (Rules typically are a way to codify 'good' and 'bad') Presumably your rules were not chosen arbitrarily; you selected them encourage things that you believe are good and to discourage things you believe are bad. If you want it to be, the gold can be part of the incentive system (ie, the rules) you have developed for the guild.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-51462706828464718482010-11-16T20:45:27.669+01:002010-11-16T20:45:27.669+01:00Solution Seems simple to me - from your own rules ...Solution Seems simple to me - from your own rules "Rerollers get 100G start money at lvl 19 (60 for DKs)."<br /><br />There's your money sink for your guild contributionsBreevokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13007745955089390880noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-26022358910348346302010-11-16T20:24:59.915+01:002010-11-16T20:24:59.915+01:00I agree with Yaggle. Just let it pile up.
Whichev...I agree with Yaggle. Just let it pile up.<br /><br />Whichever way you use it, it will be implicit redistribution of wealth, which seems very much undesirable.<br /><br />Or, distribute it in the exact same proportions to the contributors, taking a cut yourself for the job of distributing. Maybe it can be automated with a macro or addon.Caramaelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-66929745657704744062010-11-16T19:48:09.840+01:002010-11-16T19:48:09.840+01:00@Anonymous: who am I to decide what is "good&...@Anonymous: who am I to decide what is "good" and "bad"?Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-80413694413174711892010-11-16T19:43:46.717+01:002010-11-16T19:43:46.717+01:00Why not use the cash to incentivize particular kin...Why not use the cash to incentivize particular kinds of behavior? For example, getting guild first kills, doing a difficult or otherwise unrewarding job in WG, or writing addons? Repair money does nothing to encourage good or discourage bad.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-11739264602874516132010-11-16T18:28:08.175+01:002010-11-16T18:28:08.175+01:00The most interesting thing to do with the gold wou...The most interesting thing to do with the gold would be to do nothing with it at all. Let it just keep building up, and wait and see what sorts of things your guildmembers say about it. It could be an experiment in psychology to see how people react to it just staying there and growing, and growing. If anybody complains that you are keeping it for yourself, you can tell them that it belongs to the whole guild but you are undecided what it will be used for. Since all items in the Wow economy become cheaper as time goes on, the whole guild will be better off the longer it sits there, anyways.Yagglehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15177750815584983551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-4192399872167593902010-11-16T18:20:41.935+01:002010-11-16T18:20:41.935+01:00A perfect example that gold has no intrinsic value...A perfect example that gold has no intrinsic value. It only has value as a means of trading, it is but a token, devoid of worth of it cannot be exchanged. <br /><br />This example is "found" money, almost like an inheritance. Ok, it's come from other players but neither Gevlon nor anyone else (outside Blizzard) has any control over its accumulation.<br /><br />Giving it away in repairs does feel like wealth redistribution, almost social democracy, since those capable will be able to afford their own repairs. <br /><br />I would propose a random, none contributory lottery. Roll a number randomly between 1 to n where n represents the number of guild members online at that moment and give the whole lot to one member who's name corresponds to the random number. Do it once a week/month whatever time period you like. <br /><br />Thereby you have an incentive to be in the guild and online at a given time, you might just get lucky (and Gevlon gets a method of encouraging people to be there when he needs them for something).chewynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-89569231020850611172010-11-16T16:51:16.698+01:002010-11-16T16:51:16.698+01:00i have to look it up at home since it's blocke...i have to look it up at home since it's blocked from work: but is there no way to just not skill this one and take something else instead?<br />the problem is: nobody profits, which creates a fair but suboptimal solution (socials i hear you scream).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-7623494623151697722010-11-16T15:25:52.495+01:002010-11-16T15:25:52.495+01:00As I understand it, it is not a portion of the gol...As I understand it, it is not a portion of the gold looted that is sent to the guild bank. It is an additional amount that is generated and stored in the guild bank. So it is not really taking out of player A's pocket in order to allow Player B to repair, though Player A's effort does provide the funds that Player B may use.<br /><br />It's a good system that Gevlon devised as long as he follows through with his plan to adjust the amount as needed. After a while you should reach a point of equilibrium, where most people will be able to repair using bank funds at least some of the time, while keeping the money from running out.Tonushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01082528970434639776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-7431614705119187102010-11-16T14:48:19.739+01:002010-11-16T14:48:19.739+01:00There is something that, sadly, is missing from th...There is something that, sadly, is missing from the chat exerpt:<br /><br />[11:17:00] Cast detected: Misdirection<br />[11:17:08] Healdragon has died.Heywood Djiblomihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01424315448841746864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-88665098393315503062010-11-16T14:08:22.451+01:002010-11-16T14:08:22.451+01:00All the suggestions about what might be marginally...All the suggestions about what might be marginally fairer require a lot more work from someone to manage, than simply setting and adjusting a limit on guild repairs.<br /><br />I agree with Gevlon's solution, even if it's far from perfect and not even especially satisfying. Yes it provides a minor subsidy to people who die too much at low levels, but there's no way to abuse it for profit, so there's no incentive problem. (even raiders who wipe all night probably generate a fair bit of loot from trash clearing, and unless the guild bank is overflowing with this gold, they won't get all their repair bills paid by it, while a leveling character who hardly ever dies (i.e. anybody competent who doesn't constantly push their level) probably does. <br /><br />The only way you could realistically "take advantage" would be at lower levels. Maybe it would encourage soloing dungeons at level and such marginally, since your wipes would be paid for. But really, do repair costs keep anybody from doing this? I doubt it.The Gnome of Zurichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03203965173625552516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-22835294302702712622010-11-16T13:32:16.848+01:002010-11-16T13:32:16.848+01:00"For example, adjust share amount by level, d..."For example, adjust share amount by level, don't send to players inactive over X days."<br />I´ll log in every day to leech off the system.<br />- to pay Feast/Cauldron for raids <br />I´m not into PvE anymore, so people like me would be "bend over"?<br />- a lottery at the end of each week<br />I think luck is in gold the same as in raids...<br />- repairs<br />At least everyone gets somethin and mor the more active he is...<br />- to pay raid booster (when it will happens)<br />PvE-Thing and I think the boosted should pay.<br /><br />The repair-system is the easiest to control and to establish. Everything else (working out "system X" and rolling it) would take time from Gevlon, something every member decides on his own (how many time you spend ingame).<br />I´d recomment keeping a system simple instead of finding a overcomplexed "perfect" system (btw. thats the reason why there is no direct democracy).Visalyarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-8727372952214341722010-11-16T12:59:47.550+01:002010-11-16T12:59:47.550+01:00Some idea of how the gold could be used:
- to pay ...Some idea of how the gold could be used:<br />- to pay Feast/Cauldron for raids <br />- a lottery at the end of each week<br />- repairs<br />- to pay raid booster (when it will happens)John Newhousehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12030041155022521163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-63750446649591456672010-11-16T12:46:16.903+01:002010-11-16T12:46:16.903+01:00Re: dividends, welfare & inactives
The subjec...Re: dividends, welfare & inactives<br /><br />The subject under discussion is, essentially, paying dividends on a revenue stream. This is not a new problem, it has been solved in the real world. Why not apply real world solutions?<br /><br />The objections you have raised are not insurmountable problems, they have straightforward technical solutions. For example, adjust share amount by level, don't send to players inactive over X days.Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-42491387113506692162010-11-16T12:09:50.075+01:002010-11-16T12:09:50.075+01:00@ Gevlon: That’s true, you don’t have to wait unti...@ Gevlon: That’s true, you don’t have to wait until all items are Red but it sometimes occurs. For Example in Blackwing Descent has its Rep Hub on the Bottom of the Mountain. So for Times Sake the whole Raid goes to Rep and leaves the Instance (If a Mammoth is available it’s considerably faster), Repair and go back in. Usually this is done every 4-5 Wipes, considering your Guild is already leveled so you loose less Durability and that BD has an Elevator of Doom (One like you have not seen before) that will inevitably cause many Players to die over and over again.<br />I just wanted to point out, the Repping in Cata is very expensive if compared to the Costs especially Cloth Wearers are used to. Aprox 180g for a full Rep with the max Reputation based Discount a Goblin can get. And Bosses kill fast in Cata, especially on heroic mode….Riptornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-4603331908290771002010-11-16T12:01:21.476+01:002010-11-16T12:01:21.476+01:00@Bobbins: doing nothing gets 0 gold via cash flow....@Bobbins: doing nothing gets 0 gold via cash flow. And who decides what to do with all the gold in the bank? Is that just sits there?Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-85216739261955383762010-11-16T11:24:45.683+01:002010-11-16T11:24:45.683+01:00Why not just let the gold amass and use it as a me...Why not just let the gold amass and use it as a measure of guild activity. More gold more activity. Its the greedy thing to do. Wouldn't you be more likely to join a guild with a million gold in the bank rather than a 5g repair limit? <br /><br />On another thought what do you think of cash flow? I do not agree with it as it gives something for doing nothing.Bobbinsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-32144164169968345312010-11-16T11:05:58.106+01:002010-11-16T11:05:58.106+01:00@Blastoise: yes, someone who produce more than the...@Blastoise: yes, someone who produce more than the daily repair cap is at the loss. Someone is always at the loss. The only fair system would be a switch on the guild bank: "bounce the gold back to the guy who earned it".<br /><br />@Fubuar: who make the investment decisions? He is playing with other people's gold. Why him? Why not others? Please remember that here we are talking about spare change that simply don't worth the effort.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1461700565722278823.post-86021397302111164382010-11-16T11:00:42.291+01:002010-11-16T11:00:42.291+01:00I have to say whilst this may be the easy way to d...I have to say whilst this may be the easy way to do things I dont like the sound of it, even thought the extra income would not harm my personal loot.<br /><br />I think there must be another way to make better use of this gold.<br /><br />Investment banking anyone?Fubuarnoreply@blogger.com