Greedy Goblin

Friday, August 20, 2010

That was a terrible idea

I wrote my idea about the boost-run, where after bosses we discuss stuff and help the weaker players to learn what should be done better. Gold was offered to make goblin-minded people help: 100G for boosters and -100G for messups. I thought this will motivate people to seek errors to make the pot grow.

The failure was spectacular. Practically no one but me and the people I mentioned were talking, the others went AFK or whatever. This non-participation went to extremes: one guy started to demand his booster gold 20 minutes after we discussed that boss. He was surely AFK. The log was already pushed out from recount so it was pretty hard to argue with him. The other was even better: while the raid was formed, lot of people joined, lot more than 10. Some left to go hard mode, others were removed and at the end the raid was 2 tanks, 2 healers and 6 melee DPS. And no one bothered enough to look at the raid panel and say: "hey it won't work as we have no ranged" (actually it worked, we went to Valithrea and Sindy as they need no ranged unlike Festergut or Princes).

Why? Simply because the gold the system offered was not enough. If we consider 20 mins discussion while 5 failures are identified, you get 5*100/10 = 50G for 20 mins. 150G/hour. No one would work for it. So they just did the goblin thing: went AFK. OK, let's offer more gold! However it's impossible as the pot does not support it. The 10-man loot usually sells for 5-600G, so a boss can't give more than 1K, usually gives less. I can't give out more booster's gold than the failure penalties + pot supports.

The value created by the bosskill doesn't support the cost of teaching people. This idea was a terrible failure, and my only excuse is that no one mentioned that it could fail this way. Many people mentioned drama and slow progress, but the simple calculation of approximated G/hour of teaching did not pop up. Well it popped up hard on Wednesday.

As always with failures I don't push it anymore. There will be hard mode raid and normal boostraid with the old, working system. There the boosters are invited as boosters, get 100G/boss, no discussion, just pull, loot, repeat. Boosters can lose their status for sucking, but the default is 100G/boss without a word. This system worked as it provides good G/hour over the pot share and frost badges to boosters. The boosted people get pot share, chance to buy good loot, frost badges, Ashen rep and achievements. However they can only learn as much as they learn by doing the fight.

I will boost one more week to see how the "proper" boost raid works, but then I'll go hard modes as even the 5-600G/hour of booster's gold + pot doesn't worth my time. Who will boost then?
  • People who don't want to / has time this week to wipe on hard modes or simply left out of the hard mode raid (if there are 13 ready to go, it will happen, you can go to the other raid or wait that on the next day less people will show up)
  • People with 232-251 mix who are good, know the fights, but still need gear for hard modes
  • Those who ran out of gold (DBW can do that) and want a quick 1-3K
If the above people are rare, there will also be "boost raids" with very few boosters. On these raids the newbies will have to do it the hard way: by wiping and progressing on "easy" bosses. The bottom line is that a raid, not even a paid boost raid can teach you. You must learn on your own by reading, checking logs, paying someone's time to check the logs for you.

Now let's see what went well?
  • I did not drag other boosters to my stupid idea. Unlike in social guilds where the members must follow the leaders into stupidity (and in silence), in this guild they were free to form their own hard mode raid.
  • The same asocial environment allowed me to openly cancel the "new boost raid" idea. Among social people accepting failure is impossible as it damages your "reputation". People keep defending their nonsense until the whole project fallss apart. I don't have to worry about my reputation as an "unfallable leader". I'm not a leader at all. I'm just a guy who runs raids like others.
  • There were lot of new players on that raid who got their first visit to ICC, including 2 new, but already visibly good tanks:

  • Treeston's addon developed a lot and we tested it. While there is still much to do, soon it will be a great tool for speeding up the item auctions.


As I promised here is the first moron of the day! You know the term "faceroller", used on the ultimate bad player? He just rolls his face on the keyboard, pressing absolutely random keys. Of course such extremity does not exists. Right? RIGHT?
by Arnice (Damian)


kiki said...

Doesn't faceroller mean you roll your face on keyboard but still end up being first on dps due to your class?

Aethryl said...

That macro makes me want to cry and at the same time makes me wish the idiot would post it to the hunter forums so he could be gently guided upon the path to enlightenment.

Bobbins said...

If the moron post is on Fizzcrank/retaliation why do recent activities show May 2010?

Riptor said...

@ Kiki

Yes, but this only works for Ret Paladins and DeathKnights.

Although Paladins with 4pc T10 tend to use a different Technique. They bind Diving Storm (Germen Servers, you got to love them) to all Keys on theyr Numpad and then just slam their Hand on it as the raid goes on.

(Some Mages have also been accused of Penis-Slapping their Space Bar while they play Arcane)

Anonymous said...

Castrandom macros have not worked since ... 3.2?

Anonymous said...

It's something you should watch. Money is neither the only, not the best motivator.

Gevlon said...

@Kiki: faceroller is an idiot who chooses spell by rolling his face on the keyboard.

"Faceroller class" is a class that is so unbalanced/easy that even a facerolling idiot can play it.

nehunter said...

I don't get it!

shouldn't asocial mean : you snooze, you lose ?

1 raid, if he doesn't prove himself => out of the guild(or out of your raid anyway)

he's free to join raids or start raids with others anyway

there's no other magical cure for slacking, just the high pressure of don't fuck up.

Kiltarion said...

"On these raids the newbies will have to do it the hard way: by wiping and progressing on "easy" bosses. The bottom line is that a raid, not even a paid boost raid can teach you. You must learn on your own by reading, checking logs, paying someone's time to check the logs for you."

Yep. There's no shortcut to learning, and putting newbies together with the experienced is frustrating for both parts.

One thing to think about though, 25 mans. Now, the newbies won't perform as well, and we might only kill a few bosses, but it gives experience and loot, letting us get into HM quicker. The HM people also need loot there, ie DBW. I don't see why we shouldn't do 25 mans.

Gevlon said...

@Kiltarion: because last time we couldn't kill PP. Thanks, but I won't waste my time on 6/12. First we need enough players to have replacements.

Yaggle said...

I don't think this guy is a moron. He made a macro and he has some sort of shot rotation. He just is not as awesome as the rest of you.

Kring said...

I think the real moron is Wolvenstein with his "summon". The "I prefer to waste everyone's time instead of flying myself" kind of people are the worst slackers of WoW. And they can't even write a whole sentence including a "please".

Zazkadin said...

If the guy is still doing 2.2k DPS with his castrandom macro, then I wonder what the people I pull through the daily dungeon are using.

Anonymous said...

If someone wipes you, you don't really need to replace him, sometimes it is just enough to remove him. Instead of DPS, check damage done to adds and damage taken from avoidable sources.

The One and Only... said...

whats wrong with facerolling?! g15 macro was the shit in tbc... push one button and turn around and play xbox... worked pretty good with my mage till someone saw me online on my xbox playing at the same time while raiding.

Anonymous said...

most would actually class princess and dream walker as easier than PP
so maybe you should refocus your efforts - and going 8/12 is still decent and not to be sneered at.
as well as yielding loot.

and @ riptor
shut up you retarded fuck.
Try to actually press randomly and watch your rotation go to hell as a dk and do it as ret and your damage goes to hell.

Sjonnar said...

I've mentioned this before. If people want boost raids, let them pay up front for the privelege. Guarantee each boster X g/hour (500, say) and boosters get paid first from the pot. If there's not enough in the pot to cover the boosters' fees, have the boosted split the remaining costs amongst themselves. This guarantees a steady supply of boosters because of the high g/hour. AFK time is, of course, not paid. The boosters only get paid for working.

Anonymous said...

20min after boss discussing fails? Full icc10 clear should take under 2 hours (we do icc25 hm 12/12 in under 2), even spending 5min per boss is a waste of an hour. If one hour is worth 1-2k gold then the system costs people more in time than it pays from the pot.

We do group loot in 10mans and use EPGP in 25mans (has a similar interface to group loot) for this very reason - the raid goes and pulls next trash instantly.

Nick S. said...

"I don't think this guy is a moron. He made a macro and he has some sort of shot rotation. He just is not as awesome as the rest of you."

He's a moron... his understanding of those abilities is clearly zero. If you can't figure out how a Hunter works by 80, you are either a moron or a small child.

Alcapone said...

Its not like hunters are hard to play. 5 button mouse keybound results in a hunter that can be played 1 handed.

strutt said...

The other hunter is wrong also, Mark the target with Hunters Mark, Misdirect,explosive, THEN BA,SerSting, ect ect.

ardoRic said...

@ Anon (09:10)

The first time I came up with that research and ideas was on this video, where he also talks about the other aspects of his motivational theory: mastery and purpose.

It's very interesting research, but I don't think it applies to WoW (at least not on PvE these days).

PvE tasks are rote and unimaginative, the perfect setting to apply carrot-and-stick rewards.

Standing on fire: move.
Boss does X, you respond with Y ASAP.

This is only a creative process in the top guilds, 99% of the WoW players read the tactics, watch the videos and are supposed to follow them.

Not saying that you should turn off your brain while raiding ICC, but it's certainly not a creative, innovative process.

1cc said...

@The One and Only

I just pictured that and laughed out loud. Hilarious. "Oh snap! Got caught!" :D

Forreststump said...

@Yaggle: Since 3.2, /castrandom selects one spell from the list on first use and tries to cast it until it is successfully cast. Translation: If the macro picks something currently on cooldown, it will keep trying to cast on it until it works.

A set rotation would use... /castSEQUENCE. If not a moron, he is at best woefully ignorant. A constant string of "That spell isn't ready yet" messages along with the associated sound bites whilst spamming a single key should be a clue. Defend that, if you dare.

The only place /castrandom was ever truly useful: selecting a random mount from your collection when you click the macro.

Tonus said...

@Yaggle "I don't think this guy is a moron. He made a macro and he has some sort of shot rotation."

The macro he has is hurting his DPS, because of changes that Blizzard made. If the shot that is selected is on cooldown, the macro will not work again until the cooldown is up. The change was made specifically for this sort of macro, and ones that list shots by priority. These would allow a player to simply spam a single button and do almost max DPS.

Hunters work on a priority system now, and it's much more effective to keep an eye on your cooldowns and select the appropriate shot when it is available. There's a reason that Mr. Castrandom was at the bottom of the DPS meter in that screen shot.

Anonymous said...

The interesting thing about Changthosan's /castrandom macro is that he's tried to shape it by including Explosive Shot more than once. He's completely missing the concepts of a DoT and DPCT-driven priorities, but his macro does not weight each ability the same. Now, it's entirely possible he just copy/pasted it, but if this was his own creation, it does show some attempt at improvement even if the framework is flawed.

Anonymous said...

@Kring: The guy asking for a summon is the Raid Leader. He was probably in Dalaran recruiting people for the group. I would generally figure that the partially-filled raid was working on trash while he got the rest of the people they needed, but the meters don't look like typical AoE trash meters.

So either they had to replace someone after a boss (possibly the Hunter under discussion; the screenshot doesn't indicate that he's still in the raid - and he does deserve to be kicked), or the meters are reflective of a single-target trash mob, like the giant skeletons that the group can't skip because they have no rogue - Vengeful Fleshreaper, I think?

In any case, a Raid Leader asking for a summon does not automatically raise a red flag with me, because while flying is fast, it's still not as fast as a summon, especially depending upon where you are in the instance.

FWIW I lead raids three times a week, and once we have enough people to start on trash, the group does that while I continue to find the rest - so I am the raid leader requesting a summon on a weekly basis. But I will give you that I would have said "please". ;)

Anonymous said...

@Kring pt2: And how did I fail to notice the message in there that Inkelie had just joined the group? So yeah, the Raid Leader was in Dal filling the last spot (or finding a replacement for Changsothan). Should have seen that message before.

Anonymous said...

No Aimed shot in the second hunter's rotation? Strange, I remember Aimed coming before Steady when I played SV.

Wilson said...

"simple newbie does not qualify. It's OK if he doesn't know what defensive stance is. However if you explain him and he refuses to use it, refuses to listen or "cba 2 get a shield lol", he belongs here."

From the screenshot, one can tell that he is using a macro (a badly flawed one, but I give him points for trying to improve his performance). He also is discussing the matter in a civil tone with a better-informed player. So, he clearly does not meet Gevlon's definition of a moron. Why then is this screenshot here?

Kring said...

That sounds very plausible and in that case I'd like to apologize to Wolvenstein.

I did, indeed, miss the fact that he was raid leader.

Gevlon said...

@Wilson: at first it's hard to talk about "newbie" when someone is lvl 80 and has several 264 items. The "newbie" defense starts to get old around Scarlet Monastery.

Secondly newbies don't use macros as they have no idea what they are. This guy purposefully created something absolutely stupid.

anon9:10 said...


Thanks for that link, I'll gladly check it out. And yeah, most raiding is mindless enough for gold to work, I believe, except possibly (I want to strain this: "possibly"!) for some hard modes such as Sarth3D where you just have to improvise sometimes, because those fights rarely ever go perfectly as planned, or else they wouldn't be hard.