Greedy Goblin

Thursday, July 9, 2009

Ydraisa's grind

Ydraisa started her own blog. It's an RP fashioned set of writings with little moneymaking potential, but lot of laughs.

I gave Ydraisa several advices:
Craft netherweave bags
Craft 28 slot warlock bag
Craft PvP cloak
Specialize into shadoweave tailoring (cheaper warlock bag, double ebonweave)
Craft azure and shining spellthreads (money and skillup)
Sell all the useless stuff she has
Sell the BoE epic she got for the price the market is willing to pay for it

She had a very smart comment about them: they are grind, as repetitive and non-creative.

She is damn right. Making money is grind. Finding out how to is not, but doing it is. I spend lot of fun hours perfecting my glyph industry and spent 3/week non-fun hours around the mailbox getting, crafting, posting glyphs.

Our difference from the elemental-grinders is merely quantitative: they grind for 100G/hour, we grind for 1000+G/hour. Ydraisa never grinded, so it's no wonder that she found most of my advices boring and seeked alternative, creative ways to make money. She made some really good deals. She bought twink items for cheap on /trade and sold them high on AH.

The only thing I cound convince her to do was selling Netherweave bags (they sell like candy) and selling old stuff collecting dust in the bank.

She rather leveled tailoring to 415 by crafting the cheapest useless stuff than by crafting sellable blues and sell them 1 by 1. She made around 1000G, that's really nice. However her sources were either limited (old stuff), or random (idiot on /trade, spotted by no competitors). She also found some really good trades, like crafting tailoring twink items. It seems like she spent more time thinking how to make gold without my advices than using them.

All my advices are kind of grindy. They must be, as any non-grindy advice would be "use your own creativity". Sites like this can give advices for high G/hour grinds, but they always remain grinds.

So maybe it's not "I'll do it later" that casued Ydraisa's low account balance, but rather "I want to do only fun activites now and grind later". But random ideas won't keep a steady income. Remember, today's great and unique idea is just another grind tomorrow. You must grind sometimes. So I keep bugging Ydraisa to not skip her grinds. It's better to grind in your own pace and create a security blanket, than be broke and forced to grind, especially since beging broke blocks the ways from crafting items as you can't afford the materials.

After long hesitation she decided to keep mining instead of dropping it for enchanting. While I'm sure that enchanting would be profitable for her, it's true that the RP servers enchanting market is far from optimal. Materials are expensive, scrolls are cheap as there are not many raiding guilds demanding enchanted gear. But, she leveled mining to 335, so no slacking here.


nasser said...

i agree in order to max your gold profit you have to grind the mats but sometime you get a great deal in ah i do scan the ah from time to time to get a good deal on mats and for example i scan the ah and find netherweave cloath sell for 5g i buy all i can get make the bags and sell them for 10g like this i get some fun time but i don't get the full profet

Anonymous said...

you will _NEVER_ "max your gold" by grinding the mats on your own, atleast not in the goblin way- why ? well its simple its takes to much of YOUR preciuos time, in which you could make even more money.

vlad said...

cant edit so:
what Gevlon ment is that making money By the Ah is like grinding: repetitive and boring.

but damn profitable, and waaay more effective in terms of g/hour than grinding mobs.

Anonymous said...

Netherweave bags are quick and easy money for any tailor to make. I personally buy any netherweave cloth under the 5g mark and sell for 12-14 each. I can go through 30 to 50 bags on a good day on my server.

spinksville said...

Maybe she should just buy gold. Because lets face it, if it was fun, easy and fast to make gold then everyone would do it.

Even if it was just fun, everyone would do it. The reason it's not that common is because a lot of people don't find it fun. It isn't just that they don't know how (that might be true too), it's because although thinking about the market and how to profit from it can be fun, actually making regular income probably isn't.

The best you can do is work out how much you need, then figure out some least painful way to achieve it. It can be fun to think up a scheme and prove that it works, but after that it gets dull.

Finding bargains on the AH can be fun. Just it's not predictable. But I do think that if someone came to you for advice, they should at least take it.

Ydraisa said...

Those last 5 points in mining from 295 to 300 were surely painful. EPL had *no* nodes whatsoever. The final Rich Thorium mines that I needed came from an old trusted source - southern Winterspring, where the elites hang out. 3 hours for 5 mines. *Not fun*

15 minutes in Hellfire with Gathermate and Routes for the other 35 - fun.

Gevlon and I are working together on this. I am following his advice, and deciding together what's the most profitable endeavor, while minimizing *any* amount of grinding. I am unsure where you got the idea I am the turbulent pupil.

And on the gold buying topic, no thanks. I've never done it, and never needed to even think about doing so. Back when I needed money for the mounts + training, on top of cold weather, and lately dual speccing, I spent some time in the AH and made around 10K in 3 weeks from pretty deals. But to do so I had to spend around 3 hours / day watching the markets and finding profitable deals in /trade.

Gevlon is helping me develop a system where I can spend less time in the AH for equal if not higher income, and I do follow his advice.

spinksville said...


I didn't say turbulent, it sounds as though you had some useful discussions about what you want and how you want to go about getting it.

But he did say:
"The only thing I could convince her to do was selling Netherweave bags (they sell like candy) and selling old stuff collecting dust in the bank."

So it sounds as though he gave you a lot of advice and you refused almost all of it.

My suggestion is to think hard about what you find fun in the game. Then talk to Gevlon and see if he has any thoughts about making money from doing those things. If you find it fun to level alts or new craftskills, there are possibilities there. If you like doing the occasional round of dailies as long as it's not too many, maybe selling AT pets would give a good profit/time return.

But as you say, although it's fun to make cash from pure trading and spotting bargains on the AH, it's not very efficient and you have to get lucky.

Ydraisa said...

Sound advice, and I thank you for it. We did already most of what you suggested. Great minds think alike, right (in reference to yours and Gevlon's, not mine :P )?

"So it sounds as though he gave you a lot of advice and you refused almost all of it."
It's actually not as bad is you've put it, at least the way I perceive things. Re-read the beginning of his post, did most the suggestions already :)

The dailies I do are cooking/fishing and the AT. These I do for other reasons, the gold being an added bonus.

If I will end up using the AT champion seals to buy pets I'll most likely keep them, as I enjoy furry companions and am an avid pet collector -- and I foresee a bit slap on the wrist from the goblin on this. But as it is now, I'm keeping the seals for the upcoming patch goodies.

shado said...

i'm really enjoying following this process; i'm already learning where i myself went wrong in a couple ways. Way to go and catch the goblin ydraisa! I have tailoring myself, so this is a really useful read. I have been watching this blog for a while now, allthough i have to admit i like it more for gevlon's world views than for anything useful in moneymaking... being a tycoon is just too far removed from my point of view if you know what i mean :)
Still, I'm learning a lot. Thanks for the exciting new project, both of you!

Ranjurm said...

I like the direction you've taken the blog lately Sir Goblin. Also remember you don't have to post every day if you feel you are spreding your ideas too thinly. I don't think most would begrudge you if you posted less frequently if it ment a better end product.

Ydraisa I know you would like the AT pets but you should consider the following: Their prices will only go down with time, especially in 3.2 when more dailies are available for additional seals. How badly do you want pets? And would you really use more than one? I ask because it is a net gold increase to sell the pets you can buy with seals now and rebuy them off players for less than you sold it a few weeks ago.

Also if you plan to collect seals long term you should make sure you don't finish the valiant to champion grind for all 5 factions. By leaving one uncompleted you can keep doing the valiant dailies that overlap with champion quests for a better gold/hour ratio.

Ulrik said...

Just a quick comment on the 295-300 mining grind:

You can skip this if you get a pair of gloves enchanted with +5 mining, as you could then have mined in HFP from 295.

I did that on my death knight, and I think it saved me tons of stress.

Ydraisa said...

Duh, I feel like a dumb ass right now for not remembering this trick. Used it with herbalism in a distant realm on another char... 3 hours wasted.

Excellent tip with leaving the last faction valiant open for the additional gold. Already doing it myself, but good for others to know.

I'll consider your advice on selling pets now, to re-buy later for lower prices. I love pets, but also have huge patience to follow the objectives I set.

Anonymous said...

As someone who dislikes your non gold making posts I found this one to be good, it should help a fair number of people in a similar situation to that of the wee gnome.

Good luck to her/him.

Christian said...

I like these kind of posts in your blog more then "how does my computer look like", afterall the mainreason iam here is actually the gold tips and the progress of yours and others farming on their way to the gold cap, i wish Ydraisa good luck, and i sure hope Gevlon makes you grow in mind and see the cheap deals and make alot of bargains.

Wish i could be the apprentice, but hey, who knows? Maybe some other time!

Anonymous said...

not sure if this can work on your server but i search the AH for frost cloth and infinite dust, when both are ridiculously low (guess the dust wont in your server, oh well) buy em and craft bolts of imbued frost and post individually for other tailors to make their special cloths or cloth wearers looking for getting mats to craft armor (pvp/pve alike). In my experience there is usually no competition at all, in which case you can fix the price at a stable profit and set urself max gold to pay for raw mats. Can also sometimes help in keeping frost bag prices from bottom lining.

Ydraisa said...

Infinite dusts are ridiculously high priced here. And frost bags typically sell for less their mat costs.

Netherweave bags can be a small but profitable deal at times, but often there's little netherweave in the AH which drives the prices skyhigh -- think 8 - 9g per stack, with a bag selling for about the same.

As nobody farms Outlands on a permanent basis anymore, apart from a few lone DKs that still level through the zone, there's no reliable source of NW, AH or private deals.

But other things do sell well... and I intend to keep it that way for a while, so they won't show up on this blog for now.

*vlad* said...

Note that the other vlad is not me./shrug

On my server, Netherweave bags sell for 6 gold. Now it is possible to make a very small profit from that, but for me, I would rather be doing a few dailies.

It really does come down to whether you like to spend your game time making things and posting them on the AH, or not.

2 hours a week making and selling Inscriptions is as much as I can tolerate, regardless of profit.

Roy said...

@Ydraisa - if noone is farming outlands, perhaps that is a niche market for you. As a tailor you already have a higher drop-rate for cloth on humanoids. Go round em up and AOE!

This is why Thorium sells for more money than Saronite. Noone grinds it. It isn't over-farmed.

The nice thing about farming the cloth is that it is more plentiful with a much faster respawn rate.

Also, back to the mining... It BLOWS MY MIND that people rush out to be able to mine saronite. At less than 1g/ore its one of the worst possible grinds I can think of. Try as I may, I have yet to convince anyone of this yet. The real money is in the mid-level stuff.

Ydraisa said...

I may be mistaking on this but isn't the perk called "Northrend scavenger" or something to that effect? Didn't know it affects Outlands too...

With this being said however, I do know a few good NW drop spots in Outlands so might try a few grinds to see what's the hourly income from it.

And on the mining, saronite isn't the most profitable perk of the profession.

Wooly said...

Remember, today's great and unique idea is just another grind tomorrow

So true. It was getting so bad I dropped LW on one of my chars and started JC, mostly for the sake of playing a new market.

Myridin said...

I feel your pain, I'm levelling up mining and herbalism on a DK alt right now. Even with the +5 mining enchant (being able to skip into the next region faster) it's still pretty harsh at times.

Chris said...

Originally I believed that the apprenticeship was about Gevlon teaching Ydraisa (and thereby the readership) how to make gold without resorting to grinding.

But the truth is far more interesting.

Ydraisa is clearly a social player, more interested in fun, pets, friendships etc. Gold is not high on her priority list.
If it were, she would find it far easier to embrace the goblin lifestyle, rather than evaluating which activities suit her as being 'fun'.

So here's the real challenge: can Gevlon convert a social player to his way of thinking?

I, for one, am excited to find out!

(Note: I'm in no way putting down Ydraisa or her playstyle. But as eager readers will know, Goblinism is a philosophy, not just a set of tricks to maximise g/hr.)

Fallfromgrace said...

You can always solo Zul'grub for 3 ultra super rich thorium veins. To be honest when i've done this with my dk , he was very good geared but i still think most classes regardless of gear can solo the packs who are guarding the veins. You're not competing with anyone for those spawns and they usually carry some high end gems that are both expensive and essential to Jc leveling.

Ish said...

Oh how disheartened I am by all this.


Because Ydraisa is on... my... realm... :(

There goes my hassle free revenue!

Lotharn, 80, dwarf, priest from AD EU.

Anonymous said...

"Infinite dusts are ridiculously high priced here. And frost bags typically sell for less their mat costs."

I disagree , Argent dawn prices for infinite dust is about normal , well it is on the realms I play on.

Also, back to the mining... It BLOWS MY MIND that people rush out to be able to mine saronite. At less than 1g/ore its one of the worst possible grinds I can think of. Try as I may, I have yet to convince anyone of this yet. The real money is in the mid-level stuff."

Most people will realise that a stack of thorium ore sells for more than a stack of saronite , there's 1 major problem though and that's the quantity you can sell.

People might buy upto 5 stacks of thorium but JCers will buy anywhere from 1 to 100+ stacks of saronite at a time. In my personal experience thorium doesn't shift that fast.

HokieJayBee said...

a note, it doesn't matter any longer for Ydraisa's benefit, but as a benefit to other readers. Myridin said he was leveling a DK and got the +5 mining enchant to speed it up, but that he was also leveling herbalism.

my note, you can actually get a +5 gathering enchant now, which gives +5 to mining, skinning, and herbalism all in one.

Anonymous said...

Forget netherweave, check the prices for mageweave and vision dust on your server. White bandit mask is the oldest trick in the book. On my server it seems like more people are leveling alts and alt professions (especially enchanting) and vision dust, nether essences, and small radiant shards are all selling like mad. I sell Vision dust @40g/stack, greater nether essences 10g each, and small radiants @10-15each. This is a huge profit considering i find mageweave stacks for 5-6g on the AH. If there are none, try farming ZF. It can be cleared in a few minutes looting plenty of stacks or mageweave, flask of mojos and greens for DE. Hell, i usually find plenty of people that are willing to be "boosted" while paying 25-50g per run, with the condition that they loot everything and then trade the greems,flasks, mageweave and other valuables at the end of the run. Easily 150-200g per run.

Gibbiex said...

Thorium also takes much longer to gather, in the time you can get a stack of thorium you can get 3 stacks of saronite (and if you are like a few Ti).

My advice to the aspiring goblin is to buy low sell high. What that means is dont go buying the mats when the prices are super high. They almost always decrease during teh weekend and increase during the week. Buy it sunday or monday, sell it on wed or thursday. I *never* had a problem getting rid of netherweave bags. By all means if teh stacks of cloth is higher than the bag don't buy it. Wait a few days.

Also the increased cloth drops only works for NR. For outlands go to Isle of QS or other level 70 areas and farm mobs, the cloth drops are very high.

Vlad (aerie peak) said...

all the "go grind thorium" people reminded me how i did my first big cash on thorium, requirements:
* 1-2k gold to waste if the plan will fail
* jewelcrafting alt/friend
go on the AH and buy each and every thorium stack, and gems that prospect from it.
relist gems for 50g/each !
forcing people who powerlevel JC to buy your insanely overpriced gems
and... no grind required !

Myridin said...

To HokieJayBee:
Well, that enchant requires level 60 to use and it's still a level 58, because I want to get the professions to a higher level before I go to Outland. As Gevlon so nicely put it, it is bad when you see all that stuff you could gather while questing. You might be wondering, why am I doing this at all - I plan to get insccription and jewelcrafting on her later on and buying the mats from the AH would cost thousands of gold, so I really think it's easier to just get the mats myself, while I'm levelling up the character anyways. : )

Maus said...

For Netherweave Cloth you may find it useful to watch the AH. On the US Gilneas server, Netherweave cloth will range in price from 2.4g per stack to 9g per stack.

I tend to check the ah on weekends and pick up enough netherweave at 3ish gold per stack to craft all my bags for the following week when the prices go back up.

This may be why you're seeing bags being sold at materials cost.

William said...

This is actually similar to the real world as well. Almost every job out there is a "grind", where you'll repeat a similar set of routines from day to day. Some of those grinds may require unique skills/talents, but for the most part the difference is in how much $/hour you get as a salary.

Anonymous said...

The best daily grind for me is in the argent tourney, a doubled quest; kill 15(10) scourge for 13g + 13g +10g (Champions Purse).

Good luck, I think you'll do great; if nothing else simply by being more aware and knowledgeable about how to make gold in the game.

highlatencylife said...

This is already very interesting.

The only dailies I do are the kill 10/15 Scourge of AT, coupled with the 3 Shadow Vault ones. I knock all five in 10-15 minutes. Thats roughly 270 gold/hour

No goblin records, but cheap and quick wins the day.

Orgalia said...

This is great but ur giving my secrets away lol jk jk. Good times. Good luck on ur journey there Ydraisa. I look forward to the continuation of ur gobblyness adventure.

Thunderhorns said...

A little adorable gnome woman is who Gevlon chose first. And I thought goblin's didn't like gnomes.

Mike said...

I thought I'd throw my hat in here real quick.

The biggest tip I can give any aspiring goblin (I'm not a huge Goblin type, but I've got 20k account-wide) is to watch patch notes very closely and try to make some predictions. You have the potential to make a lot of money this way.

I know some people are saying that the Thorium tip doesn't have a lot of future to it, but there actually will be, I think. Especially if you start now.

3.2 will bring epic gems to Northrend. No doubt, some people will powerelevel JC because of this -- and others are probably starting now. Depending on server, there is still very decent demand for Thorium-level gems.

On my server, I can make about 50% profit (before AH cut) selling prospected Thorium gems after buying the ore.

HokieJayBee said...

@Myridin - i'm not going to belabor the point any longer, because i was simply trying to toss out some help to Ydraisa and anyone else reading the blog who might be stuck at the ~295 zone on mining / herbing / skinning.

but don't write me back and tell me you can't wear those gloves until level 60. the enchant requires the item, the gloves, to have an ilevel of 60, not the player. gloves that require player level 55+ will generally be itemlevel 60+ and can be enchanted with the +5 gatherer. heck, a death knight's starting gear [and definitely the set you earn by 57] is itemlevel 60.....

Afalach said...

Follow game changes more closely. I am very suprised that this hasnt become more of a popular thing to do, and my goblin sense is kicking in screaming here "DONT TELL YOUR SECRETS YOU FOOL" but I'm going to anyway.

A long time ago, so long ago I dont even remember what patch it was, they did a global re-vamp on non-instanced elite creatures. The mobs outside of all instances, say Razorfen Downs or Dire Maul, are no long elite and very easy fodder for even the level 70 character now. You can generally walk right around them without picking up aggro, and if you do aggro then you can one shot them.

So what the hell does this have to do with anything? Down in Silithus, the zone that is so ugly and foreboding no one ever wants to visit, has three hives that were once filled with many Silithids of the elite nature. In these hives, you can find ooze-covered rich thorium veins, usually three to five of them in a particular hive any given respawn.

This is a wonderful place to grind out your mining skills. Or to make obscene profits as Thorium ore / bars usually sell for 30-50g per stack, and are very easily attainable.

Just watching game patch notes can give you clues as to where the next huge profit can be had, be a good goblin and beat the crowd.

And then when you dont need the mining skill anymore, leave there and go scam some sucker into getting the thorium for you.